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On October 11 2012 11:22 Praetorial wrote:
I <3 Massachusetts
Universal healthcare, gay marriage and other progressive social policies, best education in all the States... we are state numero uno.
texas: rick perry, secession, teen pregnancy, cross border violence, oil dependancy, religious textbooks
sigh 
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It boils down to semantics, really (of course). The United States is more of a republic than a direct democracy, but it is essentially a representative democratic republic or something along those lines. There is no rule of the majority, at least in name. Because constitutionalism is a key component of the nation, it's a rule by law system, meaning that even the representatives are essentially bound by a higher law (the Constitution). Or at least that's how it's supposed to work.
On October 11 2012 10:31 diehilde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 10:18 m3rciless wrote:On October 11 2012 10:06 HardlyNever wrote:
The only thing wrong here is that you think anything you wrote is unique/special to the US.
Good ol' American Exceptionalism. We were the first, we are the best. LOL you really think the USA was the first democracy? And all that comes to your mind when you think of possible earlier democracies is the French Revolution?? WTF dude. Your embarassing your entire nation.
He was just kidding, don't take it so seriously lol
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On October 11 2012 14:02 aRyuujin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 11:22 Praetorial wrote:
I <3 Massachusetts
Universal healthcare, gay marriage and other progressive social policies, best education in all the States... we are state numero uno. texas: rick perry, secession, teen pregnancy, cross border violence, oil dependancy, religious textbooks sigh
Hey, Austin's pretty nice.
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On October 11 2012 13:59 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 12:19 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:43 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 11:16 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:03 beg wrote:man, i'm trying to research this... i think OP is mixing something up. i think a democratic republic is also always a democracy, but OP claims otherwise. i think he is wrong. i'm really bad at this. i just don't know. someone help please  Democracy is where everything is voted upon. Literally everything. Democratic republic is where you can vote on the leaders/direction of the country(depends on country) and then they lead in pursuit of that. Pretty sure a democratic republic is a type of democracy... The word gets thrown around so much I would've thought people knew what it was i.e. 'A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.' On October 11 2012 09:37 FromShouri wrote:
First off there is one common misconception about our country I'd like to correct:
The United States of America is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC not a democracy. ... ignorance is bad enough but please don't go around teaching it. You might as well say a yellow car isn't actually yellow. A democratic republic is a type of democracy. It is not a democracy itself(a.k.a pure democracy, a.k.a direct democracy). It is an unpure democracy, a.k.a representative democracy. So... we're both right. If it's a type of democracy, then it's a democracy... Just like a type of bird, is a bird. It's pretty straightforward.
I disagree. A type of bird is a type of bird. A bird is a bird. A type of democracy is a type of democracy. Democracy is democracy. While extremely related, they are not the same. In this case, democracy is the umbrella for public voting based systems AND the term for the specific setup.
EDIT: To finish the point, this would be like a type of bird called "bird". It's both a type of bird and "bird", but not itself a bird... if that makes any sense.
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On October 11 2012 10:06 HardlyNever wrote:
The only thing wrong here is that you think anything you wrote is unique/special to the US.
Good ol' American Exceptionalism.
Good ol' Internet cynicalism.
I like the blog, it's vague on some points but it gets the point across. Yes democracy is a political buzzword that means a democratic Republic, while what we are, is not what we are called.
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On October 12 2012 07:21 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 13:59 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 12:19 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:43 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 11:16 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:03 beg wrote:man, i'm trying to research this... i think OP is mixing something up. i think a democratic republic is also always a democracy, but OP claims otherwise. i think he is wrong. i'm really bad at this. i just don't know. someone help please Democracy is where everything is voted upon. Literally everything. Democratic republic is where you can vote on the leaders/direction of the country(depends on country) and then they lead in pursuit of that. Pretty sure a democratic republic is a type of democracy... The word gets thrown around so much I would've thought people knew what it was i.e. 'A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.' On October 11 2012 09:37 FromShouri wrote:
First off there is one common misconception about our country I'd like to correct:
The United States of America is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC not a democracy. ... ignorance is bad enough but please don't go around teaching it. You might as well say a yellow car isn't actually yellow. A democratic republic is a type of democracy. It is not a democracy itself(a.k.a pure democracy, a.k.a direct democracy). It is an unpure democracy, a.k.a representative democracy. So... we're both right. If it's a type of democracy, then it's a democracy... Just like a type of bird, is a bird. It's pretty straightforward. I disagree. A type of bird is a type of bird. A bird is a bird. A type of democracy is a type of democracy. Democracy is democracy. While extremely related, they are not the same. In this case, democracy is the umbrella for public voting based systems AND the term for the specific setup. EDIT: To finish the point, this would be like a type of bird called "bird". It's both a type of bird and "bird", but not itself a bird... if that makes any sense.
As a master's student in political science, I have to say that your feeling on the matter is rather irrelevant.
The US is in fact a democracy, and more specifically a republic.
The bird analogy holds.
Edit: If I'm to dig a little bit deeper, your position can be extrapolated all the way to the core meaning of the word democracy, which generally implies a direct democracy wherein every citizen has a say on every issue. Of course that's not the case. Republicanism is not so much what the OP says (in fact he's quite wrong). It's just that your democratic sovereignty is handed over to a representative, hence the elections. The characteristic of the US and most current democracies is that our constitutions and our laws (technically) don't allow us to oppress minorities. That's more akin to the concept of "liberal democracy" than that of a republic. In fact, there's nothing about republics that fundamentally protect minorities from oppression.
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On October 12 2012 10:00 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 07:21 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 13:59 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 12:19 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:43 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 11:16 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:03 beg wrote:man, i'm trying to research this... i think OP is mixing something up. i think a democratic republic is also always a democracy, but OP claims otherwise. i think he is wrong. i'm really bad at this. i just don't know. someone help please Democracy is where everything is voted upon. Literally everything. Democratic republic is where you can vote on the leaders/direction of the country(depends on country) and then they lead in pursuit of that. Pretty sure a democratic republic is a type of democracy... The word gets thrown around so much I would've thought people knew what it was i.e. 'A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.' On October 11 2012 09:37 FromShouri wrote:
First off there is one common misconception about our country I'd like to correct:
The United States of America is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC not a democracy. ... ignorance is bad enough but please don't go around teaching it. You might as well say a yellow car isn't actually yellow. A democratic republic is a type of democracy. It is not a democracy itself(a.k.a pure democracy, a.k.a direct democracy). It is an unpure democracy, a.k.a representative democracy. So... we're both right. If it's a type of democracy, then it's a democracy... Just like a type of bird, is a bird. It's pretty straightforward. I disagree. A type of bird is a type of bird. A bird is a bird. A type of democracy is a type of democracy. Democracy is democracy. While extremely related, they are not the same. In this case, democracy is the umbrella for public voting based systems AND the term for the specific setup. EDIT: To finish the point, this would be like a type of bird called "bird". It's both a type of bird and "bird", but not itself a bird... if that makes any sense. As a master's student in political science, I have to say that your feeling on the matter is rather irrelevant. The US is in fact a democracy, and more specifically a republic. The bird analogy holds.
#1 it doesn't matter what degree you have if we're arguing about the logic of the definitions.
#2 I agree, I never said it wasn't.
#3 It does, and it doesn't contradict what I said.
While you are right, you didn't address the point of my post. I'm pretty much just quibbling over the use of the word democracy to describe a specific type of democracy itself.
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On October 12 2012 10:06 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 10:00 Djzapz wrote:On October 12 2012 07:21 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 13:59 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 12:19 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:43 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 11:16 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:03 beg wrote:man, i'm trying to research this... i think OP is mixing something up. i think a democratic republic is also always a democracy, but OP claims otherwise. i think he is wrong. i'm really bad at this. i just don't know. someone help please Democracy is where everything is voted upon. Literally everything. Democratic republic is where you can vote on the leaders/direction of the country(depends on country) and then they lead in pursuit of that. Pretty sure a democratic republic is a type of democracy... The word gets thrown around so much I would've thought people knew what it was i.e. 'A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.' On October 11 2012 09:37 FromShouri wrote:
First off there is one common misconception about our country I'd like to correct:
The United States of America is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC not a democracy. ... ignorance is bad enough but please don't go around teaching it. You might as well say a yellow car isn't actually yellow. A democratic republic is a type of democracy. It is not a democracy itself(a.k.a pure democracy, a.k.a direct democracy). It is an unpure democracy, a.k.a representative democracy. So... we're both right. If it's a type of democracy, then it's a democracy... Just like a type of bird, is a bird. It's pretty straightforward. I disagree. A type of bird is a type of bird. A bird is a bird. A type of democracy is a type of democracy. Democracy is democracy. While extremely related, they are not the same. In this case, democracy is the umbrella for public voting based systems AND the term for the specific setup. EDIT: To finish the point, this would be like a type of bird called "bird". It's both a type of bird and "bird", but not itself a bird... if that makes any sense. As a master's student in political science, I have to say that your feeling on the matter is rather irrelevant. The US is in fact a democracy, and more specifically a republic. The bird analogy holds. #1 it doesn't matter what degree you have if we're arguing about the logic of the definitions. #2 I agree, I never said it wasn't. #3 It does, and it doesn't contradict what I said. While you are right, you didn't address the point of my post. I'm pretty much just quibbling over the use of the word democracy to describe a specific type of democracy itself.
1: We weren't arguing about the logic. What I picked up is that you were saying the US is not a democracy because it's a republic. That's false. My degree doesn't do anything but I should know. And I do. The US is a democracy.
I guess we're screwing around with semantics and it's not useful. Anyway I added to my post after you answered.
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On October 12 2012 07:21 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 13:59 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 12:19 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:43 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 11:16 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:03 beg wrote:man, i'm trying to research this... i think OP is mixing something up. i think a democratic republic is also always a democracy, but OP claims otherwise. i think he is wrong. i'm really bad at this. i just don't know. someone help please Democracy is where everything is voted upon. Literally everything. Democratic republic is where you can vote on the leaders/direction of the country(depends on country) and then they lead in pursuit of that. Pretty sure a democratic republic is a type of democracy... The word gets thrown around so much I would've thought people knew what it was i.e. 'A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.' On October 11 2012 09:37 FromShouri wrote:
First off there is one common misconception about our country I'd like to correct:
The United States of America is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC not a democracy. ... ignorance is bad enough but please don't go around teaching it. You might as well say a yellow car isn't actually yellow. A democratic republic is a type of democracy. It is not a democracy itself(a.k.a pure democracy, a.k.a direct democracy). It is an unpure democracy, a.k.a representative democracy. So... we're both right. If it's a type of democracy, then it's a democracy... Just like a type of bird, is a bird. It's pretty straightforward. I disagree. A type of bird is a type of bird. A bird is a bird. A type of democracy is a type of democracy. Democracy is democracy. While extremely related, they are not the same. In this case, democracy is the umbrella for public voting based systems AND the term for the specific setup. EDIT: To finish the point, this would be like a type of bird called "bird". It's both a type of bird and "bird", but not itself a bird... if that makes any sense.
I can't believe you're arguing with the bird analogy. You might as well say that a potato isn't a vegetable, women aren't human (debatable) or a dollar bill isn't money. I must be getting trolled. They're not 'extremely related', a type of democracy is literally a democracy by definition. Just because you disagree doesn't change how our language classifies types and sub-types.
EDIT: It doesn't make any sense. It's a bird and an eagle, either word can be used to describe it.
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On October 12 2012 10:11 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 10:06 WarSame wrote:On October 12 2012 10:00 Djzapz wrote:On October 12 2012 07:21 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 13:59 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 12:19 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:43 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 11:16 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:03 beg wrote:man, i'm trying to research this... i think OP is mixing something up. i think a democratic republic is also always a democracy, but OP claims otherwise. i think he is wrong. i'm really bad at this. i just don't know. someone help please Democracy is where everything is voted upon. Literally everything. Democratic republic is where you can vote on the leaders/direction of the country(depends on country) and then they lead in pursuit of that. Pretty sure a democratic republic is a type of democracy... The word gets thrown around so much I would've thought people knew what it was i.e. 'A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.' On October 11 2012 09:37 FromShouri wrote:
First off there is one common misconception about our country I'd like to correct:
The United States of America is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC not a democracy. ... ignorance is bad enough but please don't go around teaching it. You might as well say a yellow car isn't actually yellow. A democratic republic is a type of democracy. It is not a democracy itself(a.k.a pure democracy, a.k.a direct democracy). It is an unpure democracy, a.k.a representative democracy. So... we're both right. If it's a type of democracy, then it's a democracy... Just like a type of bird, is a bird. It's pretty straightforward. I disagree. A type of bird is a type of bird. A bird is a bird. A type of democracy is a type of democracy. Democracy is democracy. While extremely related, they are not the same. In this case, democracy is the umbrella for public voting based systems AND the term for the specific setup. EDIT: To finish the point, this would be like a type of bird called "bird". It's both a type of bird and "bird", but not itself a bird... if that makes any sense. As a master's student in political science, I have to say that your feeling on the matter is rather irrelevant. The US is in fact a democracy, and more specifically a republic. The bird analogy holds. #1 it doesn't matter what degree you have if we're arguing about the logic of the definitions. #2 I agree, I never said it wasn't. #3 It does, and it doesn't contradict what I said. While you are right, you didn't address the point of my post. I'm pretty much just quibbling over the use of the word democracy to describe a specific type of democracy itself. 1: We weren't arguing about the logic. What I picked up is that you were saying the US is not a democracy because it's a republic. That's false. My degree doesn't do anything but I should know. And I do. The US is a democracy. I guess we're screwing around with semantics and it's not useful. Anyway I added to my post after you answered.
Rereading my posts I don't think I explicitly said that the US is a democratic republic/not a democracy, but it does look like I implied it. However, what I said I think was technically correct if you look at each part by itself in that a democracy is where everything is voted upon and democratic republic is led by representatives.
Is the US considered a constitutional democratic republic? How would you define it?
On October 12 2012 10:27 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 07:21 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 13:59 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 12:19 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:43 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 11:16 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:03 beg wrote:man, i'm trying to research this... i think OP is mixing something up. i think a democratic republic is also always a democracy, but OP claims otherwise. i think he is wrong. i'm really bad at this. i just don't know. someone help please Democracy is where everything is voted upon. Literally everything. Democratic republic is where you can vote on the leaders/direction of the country(depends on country) and then they lead in pursuit of that. Pretty sure a democratic republic is a type of democracy... The word gets thrown around so much I would've thought people knew what it was i.e. 'A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.' On October 11 2012 09:37 FromShouri wrote:
First off there is one common misconception about our country I'd like to correct:
The United States of America is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC not a democracy. ... ignorance is bad enough but please don't go around teaching it. You might as well say a yellow car isn't actually yellow. A democratic republic is a type of democracy. It is not a democracy itself(a.k.a pure democracy, a.k.a direct democracy). It is an unpure democracy, a.k.a representative democracy. So... we're both right. If it's a type of democracy, then it's a democracy... Just like a type of bird, is a bird. It's pretty straightforward. I disagree. A type of bird is a type of bird. A bird is a bird. A type of democracy is a type of democracy. Democracy is democracy. While extremely related, they are not the same. In this case, democracy is the umbrella for public voting based systems AND the term for the specific setup. EDIT: To finish the point, this would be like a type of bird called "bird". It's both a type of bird and "bird", but not itself a bird... if that makes any sense. I can't believe you're arguing with the bird analogy. You might as well say that a potato isn't a vegetable, women aren't human (debatable) or a dollar bill isn't money. I must be getting trolled. They're not 'extremely related', a type of democracy is literally a democracy by definition. Just because you disagree doesn't change how our language classifies types and sub-types. EDIT: It doesn't make any sense. It's a bird and an eagle, either word can be used to describe it.
I'm not explaining my point clearly, I'm afraid. What I had meant is that a type of democracy, and a democracy itself are clearly very related, but clearly not similar. One is a type/subset of the other.
In this particular case, the overarching group has the same name as the subset. In this case the group is democracy, and two example subsets are "democracy a.k.a direct democracy" and "unpure democracy a.k.a representative democracy".
Essentially, I'm arguing over extremely unimportant semantics. Unfortunately, I've never been good at explaining my thinking... if my explanation still doesn't make sense just forget the argument and recognize that it was ultimately extremely unimportant.
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On October 12 2012 11:18 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 10:11 Djzapz wrote:On October 12 2012 10:06 WarSame wrote:On October 12 2012 10:00 Djzapz wrote:On October 12 2012 07:21 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 13:59 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 12:19 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:43 Scarecrow wrote:On October 11 2012 11:16 WarSame wrote:On October 11 2012 11:03 beg wrote:man, i'm trying to research this... i think OP is mixing something up. i think a democratic republic is also always a democracy, but OP claims otherwise. i think he is wrong. i'm really bad at this. i just don't know. someone help please Democracy is where everything is voted upon. Literally everything. Democratic republic is where you can vote on the leaders/direction of the country(depends on country) and then they lead in pursuit of that. Pretty sure a democratic republic is a type of democracy... The word gets thrown around so much I would've thought people knew what it was i.e. 'A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.' On October 11 2012 09:37 FromShouri wrote:
First off there is one common misconception about our country I'd like to correct:
The United States of America is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC not a democracy. ... ignorance is bad enough but please don't go around teaching it. You might as well say a yellow car isn't actually yellow. A democratic republic is a type of democracy. It is not a democracy itself(a.k.a pure democracy, a.k.a direct democracy). It is an unpure democracy, a.k.a representative democracy. So... we're both right. If it's a type of democracy, then it's a democracy... Just like a type of bird, is a bird. It's pretty straightforward. I disagree. A type of bird is a type of bird. A bird is a bird. A type of democracy is a type of democracy. Democracy is democracy. While extremely related, they are not the same. In this case, democracy is the umbrella for public voting based systems AND the term for the specific setup. EDIT: To finish the point, this would be like a type of bird called "bird". It's both a type of bird and "bird", but not itself a bird... if that makes any sense. As a master's student in political science, I have to say that your feeling on the matter is rather irrelevant. The US is in fact a democracy, and more specifically a republic. The bird analogy holds. #1 it doesn't matter what degree you have if we're arguing about the logic of the definitions. #2 I agree, I never said it wasn't. #3 It does, and it doesn't contradict what I said. While you are right, you didn't address the point of my post. I'm pretty much just quibbling over the use of the word democracy to describe a specific type of democracy itself. 1: We weren't arguing about the logic. What I picked up is that you were saying the US is not a democracy because it's a republic. That's false. My degree doesn't do anything but I should know. And I do. The US is a democracy. I guess we're screwing around with semantics and it's not useful. Anyway I added to my post after you answered. Rereading my posts I don't think I explicitly said that the US is a democratic republic/not a democracy, but it does look like I implied it. However, what I said I think was technically correct if you look at each part by itself in that a democracy is where everything is voted upon and democratic republic is led by representatives. Is the US considered a constitutional democratic republic? How would you define it?
Depends what you're talking about but from that angle, that seems fine. It use a presidential system too, but all those things are only characteristic of a much more complicated system which can't be described with a couple of terms.
One could argue, and that's my position, that it's useless to try to describe the US in a few words. Constitutional democratic republic is fine, but then again why not just "republic"? Adding that it's democratic is redundant, and to mention that it has a constitution is just one of its characteristics.
Might as well call it a constitutional federal presidential democratic republic with bicameral parliament... etc.
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937
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EPT
