• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:06
CEST 04:06
KST 11:06
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL60Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event19Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BGH Mineral Boosts Tutorial Video Replays question
Tourneys
[BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 552 users

Science- Criticism?

Blogs > Vedad
Post a Reply
Vedad
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Sweden34 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 21:37:54
October 10 2012 21:32 GMT
#1
So I just read this blog, bringing up some "criticism" of science. So I thought, whatever, let's share some knowledge on TL and start a discussion.

I will reference to Sauwelios LinkSauwelios link: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2012/04/lawrencekrauss.html in this text

As I will tell you later, I'm writing a thesis about science and how it is thought of especially in milieus like Chalmers (Tech. Univ.) and what kind of challenges the field of theory of science poses to people and the practice in such an enviroment. I will post the thesis in the forum when it's finished, if everything goes by the plans.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Do I have any authority in this topic?
I'm doing my MSc in engineering at Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg, in Applied Physics, as well as a Masters in Theory of Science at Gothenburg University (writing my thesis). So I have some insight in both worlds.

What is Theory of Science? (Note: this is from how the field is interpreted in Gothenburg, at the institution. The interpretation differs for example from how the field is seen at Uppsala University)

Basically, this field is about studying science and scientists. Classical Theory of Science (up until the ~70's) is more the philosophical questions like:
-What makes science so good?
-What differentiates science from other fields, like the humanities.
-What is good science, what is bad science?
-The role of science in society?

The modern Theory of Science has drifted more towards the fields of sociology of science, sociology of scientific knowledge (SSK), science and technology studies (STS). To give an example it, it is about how scientists work together, how do they reach a consensus, how to know when to discard a theory or an experiment.

Forewords

Carbonyl noted some criticism: That science can't answer a lot of questions.

There is more criticism than what is brought up. As others stated, this isn't really criticism, it is more of a limitation to the scientific inquiry.

Introduction

The theory of science poses some challenges to the scientific institution, if we are allowed to call it that. These challenges question some features of this institution. I will only give a brief example of some issues, since the full text will be available later.

Scientific Method
Does there exist a "scientific method"?

No it doesn't. A method would constitute a finite number of steps that if they are followed, it will end up in new knowledge. There are different methods that have been proposed throught the times:
Induction, deduction, falsification and others.

Steven Shapin comments this in The One Culture?(2001):
You name it, it's been identified as the Scientific Method or at least as the method of some practice anointed as the Queen of the Sciences, the most autuhentically scientific of sciences - usually, but not invariably, some particular version of modern phyhsics.
(p. 104)

He later quotes physicist Percy Bridgeman:
It seems to me that there is a great deal of ballyhoo about scientific method. I venture to think that the people who talk most about it are the people who do least about it. Scientific method is what working scientists do, not what other people or even they themselves may say about it. No working scientist, when he plans an experiment in the laboratory, asks himself whether he is being properly scientific, nor is he interested in whatever method he may be using as method.... The working scientist is always too much concerned with getting down to brass tacks to be willing to spend his time on generalities....Scientific method is something talked about by people standing on the outside and wondering how the scientist manages to do it.
(1955,81)

To quote an anecdote myself:
Me and my collegue did an interview with a (mathematical) physicist (string theory research), who told us about an incident when a student came to his office and asked: "What is the scientific method?". The professor, being somewhat familiar with theory of science, said that there was no scientific method. The student was paralyzed out of shock (at least he was surprised), he was actually expecting to receive an answer with x number of steps to follow, which if you follow them, you are being "scientific" in some sense.

For reading purposes, Feyerabend's Against Method (1975) is an excellent book in this topic. He pretty much covers the topic, that there is no scientific method and that science has progressed by people "breaking" the rules. The makes use of some examples where scientists had to break the rules, and these irrational actions led to many of the largest scientific discoveries today. I highly recommend reading Feyerabend (who was originally trained in physics).

I'm sure there are some internet lectures on youtube adressing these kind of questions.

Whig History
The term was initially coined by Butterfield, a british historian, with his 1931 paper The Whig Interpretation of History. The paper is fairly interesting and can be found without difficulty by googling. The term refers to the political Whig party, which wrote the history in such a manner that it appeared as history somehow unfold so that the Whigs came up on top, they were chosen.
In wikipedia on Whig History we read:

The term is also used extensively in the history of science for historiography that focuses on the successful chain of theories and experiments that lead to present-day science, while ignoring failed theories and dead ends


Pretty much: Newton and all other (great) scientists were all right always, and they would draw exactly the same conclusions if only they knew what we knew. This is a simplified version. It's a belief that for example: we believe what Newton believed, he was right, we are right, it's just minor differences. We neglect the aether, the corpuscles and other phenomena that Newton believed in and take the good parts, and call him ours.

Another type of Whig History is when scientists construct history in such a manner that some experiments seem very important, or some results seem very decisive to give some kind of drama effect.

For example, afterconstructions of history. Today we learn in physics classes the importance of the Michelson-Morley experiments but in fact its significance is just an after construction by Einstein and others.

In the other blog, there is a link posted by user Sauwon in which the writer asks why scientists have so high regard of themselves and their enterprise.

Which raises the question: why? My best guess is that the culture so celebrates physics, that physicists have come to believe the "PR" about them.


This could be classified as Whig History.
If you read Thomas Kuhn's best seller The Structure of Scientific Revolution (1962) you will notice that Kuhn argues that scientists should be mislead into thinking that they possess some kind of special knowledge and so on so that science can progress, because Kuhn thinks that what makes science different from the humanities and stuff is the fact that within the humanities people always argue about the basics. If science were to be such that scientists always were questioning their field then it wouldn't progress. That's why he says:

In the case of textbooks, at least, there are even good reasons why in these matters, they should be systematically misleading


Kuhn's book is one of the most popular books on science. But! There is another way of seeing it. Karl Popper (Feyerabend was his biggest fanboy, at least if we were to believe Steve Fuller in his book Popper vs. Kuhn(2004)) had this idea of responsibility. Everyone should be responsible for their actions, and that includes the scientist. Therefore we should not be misleading the community to favor scientific progress. Every person should before making a decision need to know about the matter, they sohuld know what the consequences should be if they take a certain position and on that basis they should make their decision. The decision shouldn't be made by someone else. Therefore we can not choose to mislead someone so that they become better scientists, it's just not moral.

Fuller argues therefore that the wrong person won (there was a debate between Popper and Kuhn and Kuhn won, which is why he is so famous). Kuhn's vision of science is nowaday seen as THE vision, people usually discard other opinions. Read the Wikipedia of Fullers Popper vs. Kuhn and you'll get a glance of what I'm saying (the critique is unjustified in my opinion), Fullers book is interesting and presents an interesting view of Popper.

To read about the Michelson-Morley experiment, and other interesting things about science I would consult Trevor Pinch's and Harry Collin's The Golem: What you should know about science.

Social Factors

There are social factors playing in science. It can be the peer review process in which certain people are discriminated (there is one case where a scientist had his paper delayed for x number of years (I think 7) to get it published because he was a part of a small community so the reviewer who held a grudge against this guy could easily be recognized so he never wanted to allow him to publish his paper.

Other factors can be: sexual discrimination (feminists like to mention this), that scientists have been performing boundary work to exclude women from the scientific inquiry.

In Sauwelios link we read:

Of course, it was not always so with physicists, but the current generation (at least those who try to speak to the broader public) does seem remarkably inept in logical and rational thought, and unembarrassed to display that to the world.

Brought my thoughts to a quote by Feyerabend in Against Method:

The withdrawal of philosophy into a "professional" shell of its own has had disastrous consequences. The younger generation of physicists, the Feynmans, the Schwingers, etc., may be very bright; they may be more intelligent than their predecessors, than Bohr, Einstein, Schrödinger, Boltzmann, Mach and so on. But they are uncivilized savages, they lack in philosophical depth – and this is the fault of the very same idea of professionalism which you are now defending.


Other issues might deal with theory choice moments, when scientists can not lean on any facts because the two theories both have their "facts" backing them up, so there must be some other kind of stuff that must be used as a criteria between them.
Scientists discriminating each other because of personal issues(as seen above) or because they might have some other opinion, just look at Dan Schechtman, Nobel Prize Winner in Chemistry, he was totally kicked out of his community because he didn't agree with the facts of the day.

The thesis of underdetermination (aka Duhem-Quine thesis): all theories are underdetermined by facts. A set of facts can support an infinite amount of contradicting theories, how do we know when we got it right?

This is a very brief introduction into the challenges that the scientific enterprise stands before

Hopefully it was beneficial.

***
GERMasta
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany212 Posts
October 10 2012 21:51 GMT
#2
4/5 for being well read. At least you know what you're talking about.
Mothra
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States1448 Posts
October 10 2012 21:54 GMT
#3
Thank you, very interesting read.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
October 10 2012 22:04 GMT
#4
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Khun has a very interesting look at science and how it isn't as un-biased as you would hope. Perhaps you might find that interesting to read.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Carbonyl
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States334 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 23:38:11
October 10 2012 23:33 GMT
#5
This is quiet interesting. The public eye sees so little of what truly happens behind science, and even less of scientist's criticisms of what science is.

I can definitely see how what I was instigating in my blog wasn't a "criticism," I just didn't know what to call it.

On October 11 2012 06:51 Sauwelios wrote:
4/5 for being well read. At least you know what you're talking about.

He did say he was doing a thesis at a university on it. You come off quite arrogant.
It takes quite a long time of playing and watching a video game before you realize how bad at it you really are.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
October 11 2012 00:35 GMT
#6
Will come back to this later when I can properly let it stew at length. For now, thanks, looks interesting. But to start out with, science doesn't really have problems so much as episotemology is hopelessly problematic.

A discussion of human foibles in the pursuit of scientific "truth" is a separate (cultural) issue, in my mind.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Jumbled
Profile Joined September 2010
1543 Posts
October 11 2012 03:02 GMT
#7
To a large degree, these types of claims show why philosophy of physics is mainly dismissed as irrelevant by the scientific community. Much of what you're discussing here is a clash of egos, with philosophers being no less vulnerable to hubris than anyone else.
corpuscle
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States1967 Posts
October 11 2012 04:25 GMT
#8
We neglect the aether, the corpuscles and other phenomena that Newton believed in and take the good parts, and call him ours.


STOP IGNORING ME GODDAMNIT I'M REAL

Anyway, more on topic, Douglass Hofstadter explores a lot of these questions in Godel, Escher, Bach, if anyone's interested in reading more about the subject of scientific philosophy. I'm not nearly intelligent or well-read enough to come close to summarizing any of the points he makes in an effective way without completely bastardizing it so I won't even try, but if you haven't read his work and you're interested in the sciences, check it out.

Also, if you can't stomach GEB (it's long and confusing as fuck), Godel's Proof by Ernest Nagel and James Newman does a great job breaking down the Incompleteness Theorem (which is semi-related to the Duhem-Quine thesis mentioned in the OP) for people without a strong backing in the sciences/mathematics.
From the void I am born into wave and particle
Vedad
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Sweden34 Posts
October 11 2012 09:21 GMT
#9
On October 11 2012 09:35 EatThePath wrote:
Will come back to this later when I can properly let it stew at length. For now, thanks, looks interesting. But to start out with, science doesn't really have problems so much as episotemology is hopelessly problematic.

A discussion of human foibles in the pursuit of scientific "truth" is a separate (cultural) issue, in my mind.


It migt be, but still this is what we call science. If scientists only do science when they get it right isn't a very attractive opinion in my mind. Sure it would be ok, but in the end it is science.
Vedad
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Sweden34 Posts
October 11 2012 09:39 GMT
#10
On October 11 2012 12:02 Jumbled wrote:
To a large degree, these types of claims show why philosophy of physics is mainly dismissed as irrelevant by the scientific community. Much of what you're discussing here is a clash of egos, with philosophers being no less vulnerable to hubris than anyone else.


Well, I don't really agree with that this is being dismissed by the scientific community. If you read The One Culture? which is basically a collection of articles by both scientists (mainly physicists) and (mainly) sociologists you will see that the scientists don't reject these claims. Sure some of the points made by theory of science, even in my opinion, are way off.

If you would say that scientists are not interested by it and can't see the value of such knowledge, I would agree. I did some interviews with some physicists and only one of them had knowledge of these kind of questions. On the other hand, it is often hard to see the value of some kind of knowledge before you attain at least a part of it.

I would recommend you to get into reading this kind of litterature if you are interested.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
October 12 2012 08:20 GMT
#11
On October 11 2012 13:25 corpuscle wrote:
Show nested quote +
We neglect the aether, the corpuscles and other phenomena that Newton believed in and take the good parts, and call him ours.


STOP IGNORING ME GODDAMNIT I'M REAL

Anyway, more on topic, Douglass Hofstadter explores a lot of these questions in Godel, Escher, Bach, if anyone's interested in reading more about the subject of scientific philosophy. I'm not nearly intelligent or well-read enough to come close to summarizing any of the points he makes in an effective way without completely bastardizing it so I won't even try, but if you haven't read his work and you're interested in the sciences, check it out.

Also, if you can't stomach GEB (it's long and confusing as fuck), Godel's Proof by Ernest Nagel and James Newman does a great job breaking down the Incompleteness Theorem (which is semi-related to the Duhem-Quine thesis mentioned in the OP) for people without a strong backing in the sciences/mathematics.

Godel's Proof is a sweet fucking book. I'm so glad I picked it up even though I was already comfortable with Godel's theorom.

Still plan to come back to this but I want to synthesize a worthy response.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 54m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 288
Nina 198
RuFF_SC2 141
StarCraft: Brood War
NaDa 133
yabsab 43
Icarus 4
LuMiX 3
Dota 2
febbydoto30
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1927
Stewie2K993
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor204
Other Games
summit1g10130
tarik_tv7651
JimRising 738
fl0m410
ViBE179
ProTech56
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV25
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH273
• davetesta43
• practicex 4
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki28
• Pr0nogo 5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler65
League of Legends
• Doublelift4358
• masondota21007
Other Games
• Scarra986
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
7h 54m
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
9h 54m
WardiTV European League
9h 54m
BSL: ProLeague
15h 54m
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
1d 21h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.