I have never played Dota 2. I have never played the original Dota. I have never watched a Dota stream. I have only briefly played LoL casually with friends and is my only MOBA experience. I have never had any interest in any MOBA.
I have played Starcraft since I was in middle school living in Korea. I have watched Proleague, OGN and MBC broadcasts on TV. I have watched Professional Korean broadcasts on Youtube (Jon747 Wifebeater Nevake etc) ever since I came back to America. I have played SC2 and watched SC2 since the original WoL beta. I religiously watch SC2 streams, follow tournament brackets on Liquipedia, and tune in to matches in basically all major tournaments.
When I decided to watch the International 2 yesterday, I wasn't sure what to expect. The Team Liquid staff seemed to deem it worthy of it's blessing, the stream numbers were absurdly high for all the streams available in the sidebar. I had never had any interest in playing MOBA games (and I'm afraid I probably never will). I had read the main article covering the International 2's various teams from all regions, and key players and heroes to look out for; and was geniuenly intrigued by the event. It was the last day, I would only be watching the final games.
I was completely amazed at how much better the casters were compared to their SC2 counterparts.
Starting with the hero selections I was completely astounded by how knowledgeable the casters were. They discussed and analyzed each of the selection and ban choices the teams made, extremely quickly and on the fly as heroes were chosen and tossed aside. With every decision made, the casters would instantly be on the ball, discussing what the next "move" would be, what the team's general strategy or logic would be considering the composition vs the opponents.
I felt completely embarrassed when I thought about how blatantly simple SC2 casters discuss maps in their broadcasts; it usually amounts to "this map is big, so X race is favored here" "there's rocks here" "broad vague term and buzzword",
The amount of items and heros in Dota 2 was unreal to me, it seemed like there were infinite pieces to this puzzle. And yet the casters knew exactly what every single item is, what it does, what each hero's strengths and weaknesses are, and even more impressive: they knew how they interact with one another as a team, and how that combination would interact with the opponent's. As I was watching, more and more they commentators would continue to impress me with just how knowledgeable they were about all the seemingly endless combinations of spells, heroes and tactics involving them.
SC2 casters in comparison, for the most part, don't seem to understand the purpose of a lot of build orders. They oversimplify what each players is doing, they don't understand the fine details or logic that each player is displaying in their builds.
When they see a player move out, they'll just say "oh they're moving out." When they see an upgrade being started, they'll just say "he's getting these good upgrades." Rarely will you see casters who aren't top end discuss why the players are making these choices, and what logic they use to justify them.
They also knew so much about the players. They would describe their particular playstyles, what they like what they don't like, where they are strong and where they are weak. They know how the Chinese play, how the Americans play, how the Europeans play, what the trends are.
Let's be honest: Most SC2 casters don't know anything intricate about players, teams, or general regions. It's mostly "He's Zerg/Toss/Terran."
As the heroes began to move across the map, the Dota 2 casters seemed to be on top of the ball from beginning to end.
They'd keep track of each of the 10 heroes, where they are, where they're going, what they're trying to accomplish, what they actually have accomplished. They'd keep track of what each team's position on the map is. How far have they pushed up these various lanes?
They would have to quickly translate what is happening on the screen to the viewers. SC2 it's a lot easier to see what's on screen, because it's entirely "units are being killed." But for Dota 2, with the variety of spells and animations, it's much harder to keep track of everything. Even in the big battles, when the entire screen seemed to flash in a bunch of colors and lights, they would astoundingly announce the important actions of the players in a matter of seconds.
Probably the most impressive part of the Dota 2 casts for me was that they understood how the early, mid and late game was playing out. They kept track of where the advantage lied for both teams, what momentum and rhythm each team had, what the other team would have to do to get ahead or get back into the game.
Many times SC2 casters can understand the early game and mid game because it's so common, because it's not as intricate. There's not as many decisions being made. But they struggle a lot to discuss the late game where it's all about decision making and being a smarter player than the other.
It's true. I actually have no idea about Dota 2 and I probably never will. Maybe I am completely wrong about the Dota 2 casters and am just giving them a bias. Maybe I just don't like SC2 casters.
But still, I can't help but feel that if these "foreigner" DOTA casters can show such an apparent wealth of knowledge and insight, then SC2 casters have no excuse for not giving us better analysis, and just a better show.
I miss Korean commentary. I hope SC2 casters can prove me wrong.
I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
Depth in Dota is much more obvious than in SC2, Knowing all items and heroes and most interactions is around silver level knowledge really(maybe gold). Just announcing stuff the same way as in SC2 is many times harder in dota as there's several magnitudes more happening. Also the fact that pretty much every dota caster plays A LOT (I don't think that is true for sc2) helps, they know exactly what is hard to achieve and stress it accordingly.
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
DotA2 kind of lends itself towards a lot of lengthy discussion since before the game's even started, you can talk about how each and every hero will synergize with every other. You can talk about that with great detail at great length very easily, especially when you have a four person panel up like they did. SC2 doesn't really have that kind of equivalent.
I absolutely loved the TI2 tournament, though. It was incredibly well done, and the casters were all so spot on. They were incredibly professional, and everything was so polished...Valve sunk a TON of money into that tournament, but the end result was something that honestly put nearly every SC2 tournament to shame.
For casting, we need more TotalBiscuits (speed and excitement) paired with better analytical casters (more people on Day9/Artosis level). We don't have enough of either.
Honestly go play a few hundred dota 2 games and you will quickly realize how little the casters know saying it's impressive that the casters know every hero and item is equivalent to being impressed the sc2 casters know the entire tech tree for every race, sure the dota2 database might be a little bigger but honestly do you think it would be hard to memorize a little more? it comes with the territory and is pretty much impossible to not pick up after you player/watched the game enough. Not caster bashing. It's not an easy job but i would say they are definitely not superior to sc2 casters at all.
Well these are completely different games and there is just more to talk about durning MOBA match because of the amount of items/heroes/abilities. And some SC2 mu's are just boring like PvZ for example. But i can partly agree that a lot of SC2 are just...bad. For me the guy who always was far ahead of everyone else was Artosis - he just lives Starcraft, he makes few show here and there but u could feel SC is all he does. While other casters like Day9 or DjWheat have some other stuff to do, both of them have other jobs (Day9tv and twitchtv). I like to watch Bitterdam because its never boring and they seems to know the game prety good (compared to others at least). Also Apollo is the man^^
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
I did watch The International 2 on Twitch, when everyone heard Tobi saying "BLAAAAAAAAAAACK HOOOOOOOOLLLLLLEEEEE" everybody kept spamming "Black Hole" in there own way, and i could not stop laughing.
That is some contagious enthusiasm. Maybe it is the fact that there can be SO much going on from 5 players at once that lends Dota to a good spectator sport. Of course it has its fair share of slow games as well, but many of the International 2 games were just amazing.
if you listened to luminous's interview you would hear how he talks to players and even synderen to research different aspects of competitive play so he knows what he's talking about even though he isn't at a competitive level. Tobi's level of analysis is pretty mediocre but he's always paired with someone like synderen who's captain for his team and let's him do the insight. Synderen is also pretty fit for casting, not just knowledge. Draskyl is also semi pro and he could stand in for a few teams.
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
I meant the knowledge of heroes and items is silver level, Synd is definitely GM and Tobi knows his shit too(just doesn't always know when or how to apply the knowledge)
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
I meant the knowledge of heroes and items is silver level, Synd is definitely GM and Tobi knows his shit too(just doesn't always know when or how to apply the knowledge)
I love hearing Synd cast just as I love watching SC2 players cast. They are SO knowledgeable; and they show it.
On September 04 2012 07:02 Tarot wrote: It's just because you haven't played that many moba games. There's just more stuff to talk about in dota than SC2.
The knowledge that you describe comes simply by playing more games. Even as a mostly casual dota player, nothing they said was incredibly indepth.
I've played mobas and I disagree. Dota 2's casters are just stellar.
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
If you get a premium ticket/subscription they let you pick between english and korean cast.
At OP: I was kinda impressed too. But as others have said, dota has much more to talk about. Hype is easier because the players dont decide if they attack, only what at and when. I watched TI2 and was very entertained until navi was losing really bad. I played dota 2 for the first time today and i got legit andrenaline rushes doing crazy stuffs, more than watching TI.
At the end of the day, i went back to watching gsl and i think part of sc2 is that there isnt as much to talk about, there are ridic common openings, and strategies arent self evident. Artosis during group A was like xxx is using the same build as xxx and if im right he should make a nexus and the goals of the build will be xx, xx and xx. Artosis knew that because he is protoss and an ex pro. He cant do the same things with the other two races. To get that, wed need two more ex pros who devote lots of time regardless of having babies. Also dota strats are self evident brcause dota heroes spells are sposed to work togrther and the teams spells are sposed to work together on top of that. Items normally just help getting in position, the team synergy, or the indovidual hero. For this reason, things in dota 2 are self evident especially if you are a player of it as well. Sc2, less so.
As a longtime Dota player who is just learning about TL, I'm glad you enjoyed watching The International. Just be aware that one of the main reasons the casting was so good is that this is the biggest (by 2-3 orders of magnitude) Dota tournament of the year and naturally only the best casters will be invited to commentate.
There are plenty of 2nd- and 3rd-tier Dota casters who have a cringeworthy lack of game knowledge, poor camera control, and general unprofessionalism. But those people don't get asked to cast The International.
The thing is, from my personal experience, the Dota / LoL commentators don't explain anything. You hear them talking about a ton of stuff that no one can understand except people who actually play the game. That makes the whole spectating experience very frustrating. Everytime I try to watch a dota game, I'm like "what is the purpose of this item? What is this spell?". At the end of the day, I wish the commentators were aware of the casual spectators.
EPT
saying it's impressive that the casters know every hero and item is equivalent to being impressed the sc2 casters know the entire tech tree for every race, sure the dota2 database might be a little bigger but honestly do you think it would be hard to memorize a little more? it comes with the territory and is pretty much impossible to not pick up after you player/watched the game enough. Not caster bashing. It's not an easy job but i would say they are definitely not superior to sc2 casters at all.
