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P and T HOTS units.. Thoughts

Blogs > VictorJones
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VictorJones
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States235 Posts
August 14 2012 17:47 GMT
#1
Okay, this is what I think of the HOTS units based on what I've read and the battle reports. I know it's too early to have any of this set in stone but if people can complain about how certain units are terribly designed and game-breaking then I think I can go without a disclaimer for now lol. I am going to put all my thoughts about the T and P units together here because I can since we have now seen battle reports for all 3 non-mirrors. By the way, I am a Master P on NA but I have been somewhat inactive recently due to my general disenchantment with the protoss race. I have been watching avidly and plan to return to full form with HOTS

Tempest:
+ Show Spoiler +

Looks like a lot of fun. The fact that it is slow and expensive are turn-offs at first glance but people are being ridiculous. Here we have a functionally useful unit that doesn't do TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE. Isn't that what we've been asking for since the dawn of Sc2 time? It is a purely positional unit that encourages engagements without actually forcing them and has usefulness in many different situations ranging from economic harass to picking off units in key locations. It is slow so
it needs units to babysit it but that's a good thing. This is a unit that doesn't fit in the traditional death ball and gives both players more to think about in terms of positioning it and countering it. I really like how this unit works in theory. Hopefully, it works like that in practice.

PvT: Can pick off mech units (slowly) with very little risk of being caught and killed as long as it is being babysat properly. Won't do as well against bio
Bio which people seem to forget is still a way to play the matchup since nothing the P is getting does better against bio than before.

PvZ: Finally, an answer to broodlord infestor. Can pick off infestors, can pick off broodlords, all while sitting behind the glory of stalker colossi.

PvP: I'm not expecting it to be very useful in PvP tbh. Blink stalkers will counter it too hard. Possibly limited uses as a ledge camper but thats it really..

Oracle:
+ Show Spoiler +

Fun fun fun. Moves fast, doesn't do direct damage. Has uses throughout the game. Entomb isn't quite what I want it to be though. I would rather entomb block off 2-3 patches but be harder to get rid of. Like, give the ff 2 armor or something so that small amount of army needs to be used to clean them up. It would make the unit a lot more strategic because you would need to entomb the mineral patches farthest from the army so they would be hardest to get rid of and the other player
would need to prepare for this spell to be used and defend accordingly. As it exists right now, it's a
shiftclick unit for both the protoss, and the unit defending it and that isn't quite as cool as it could be. The truesight thing will be nice because it makes protoss air play viable against cloacked banshees and gives another means of scouting. Finally, the mass cloak is just awesome. That will have many uses that can't be shown in a couple of battle reports.

PvT: Scouting, economic harass, cloaking. Extremely useful unit that once again doesn't add to deathball. Will be useful against both bio and mech.

PvZ: Same thing. Useful. Very useful.

PvP: Don't honestly know. PvP is so difficult to understand already, I don't know how this unit will affect it, or if it will at all. Mass cloak will be the biggest deal here as entomb won't do much to a 1-2 base player (his army will be readily available).


Mothership Core
+ Show Spoiler +

Adds a lot to protoss macro. This unit will make the difference between noobs and pros much more apparent on a macro level as it will make chronoboost a more central aspect of it. It's uses are so plentiful so I look forward to seeing it. In fact, it's my favorite protoss addition simple because it will make protoss a race that requires more skill to macro with. Hopefully, it will get people to flame a little less. Time will tell though lol. Mass recall is amazing since you have to make
the choice to get less chronoboost potential therefore slowing down your build in order to poke at them so it isn't a free attack because of the opportunity costs. I don't know how I feel about the defense cannon thing. The range seems a little long but maybe a little defenders advantage is exactly what protoss needs in the early game (aside from sentries ofc).

PvT: Macro stuff. Mmmm. Recall? useful for defending drops in the mid game if army is out of position. Purify? Kills 1-1-1

PvZ: Macro stuff. Mmmm. Recall? Will be very very useful in forcing units from zerg obv. Purify? Stops Lame roach allins.

PvP: Macro stuff. Recall, I don't know how useful it will be since this MU is generally decided by 1 engagement anyways. Could be used in tandem with blink attacks which would be cool to see. Purify? Really depends on how strong they decide to keep it. If it is strong enough to cancel out a colossus than it will have a huge affect on how the MU plays out.

New Mothership
+ Show Spoiler +

Theoretically an improvement. Haven't seen enough of it to know obviously. I like the air-stasis. It will make broodlords less of an answer to everything which will make zerg need to make actual decisions on how to play the MU. It doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose in PvT simply because of emp. and mass viking.

PvT: Don't see it being used much

PvZ: Much better unit than before

PvP: Time will tell


Battle Hellion
+ Show Spoiler +

I like the idea of having a mech firebat. I'm concerned about the strength of hellion drops though. You could run in with them (or drop them) abusing their speed, and then get into a good position and instantly transform into a legit fighting unit. It seems like a low-risk, low-cost, high reward unit. Still though, it's nice that terran is getting a unit that can tank damage effectively. PvT is going to change quite a lot.

TvP: An effective answer to chargelots. Imagine that. I don't know how the protoss is supposed to deal with them in tandem with tanks and warhounds (at least on the ground). I'm concerned that being able to change into normal hellions after an engagement will turn a bad mid-game engagement for p into a slaughter of workers and therefore a game ender. It's just too early to tell but it seems like the HP is a little too much in battle mode given the splash damage and the capacity for mobility.

TvZ: Zerglings may end up being virtually useless in the midgame should the terran decide to mech and lets be honest, why wouldn't he? Hellion tank builds can create contains that will be much harder to break than before and it was already hard to start with. What's the answer? Banelings won't do jack against armored units, zerglings will be doomed due to fire-splash, roaches will be cost ineffective against tanks. Throw up a couple turrets and the only viable midgame option seems to be infestors... sort of. Swarm hosts might be useful for this. Hard to say. I know stopping the terran from getting into position is half the battle, but with battle hellions, it seems like catching a terran out of position won't hurt as much (in the early to mid game) because of how cost effective battle hellions will be against zerglings. If it takes longer for battle hellions and tanks to come out together than I am accounting for, than that solves the problem but that will depend on the
build times and stuff of the units which won't be set in stone for a while so it's a legitimate concern imo.

TvT: A unit that has lots of HP when it wants to for no gas will make for a powerful siege breaker as long as there aren't a LOT of tanks. Don't know how I feel about this. Personally, I like TvT exactly where it is although mech does seem less fun to watch than marine tank. I'm curious to see how the battle hellion interacts with opposing marines in large numbers. Hopefully it isn't so strong that mech becomes the only viable way to play TvT.


Warhound
+ Show Spoiler +

A lot of people hate the look and feel of this unit. I don't like it so much myself. It's so strong and doesn't seem to have any weaknesses. It exists as a seige breaker and it will serve that purpose well for sure. It also counters just about everything protoss. It isn't useful against zerg for obvious reasons but maybe someone pro will come up with a unique use for it in TvZ... Gimmicky and I doubt it. It really is essentially a mech marauder that is stronger than a marauder. The auto-missiles are just another means of making TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE happen. This unit does seem like a step in the wrong direction.

TvP: Counters everything on the ground besides zelots. Moves relatively quickly, has range equal or higher to/than everything on the ground besides colossi. Has lots of HP so it isn't really vulnerable to storm. Seems OP in tandem with battle hellions. I don't think it's range should be so high since it kind of steps on the seige tanks role. I don't honestly know what should be done with this unit in this MU. I think maybe lowering its range so it exists as more of a buffer unit for tanks would be
an interesting way to make it less of a replacement and more of an intelligent positional unit. Also, since the potential to hard-counter this and hellions together is not apparent, making it kiteable is one way to make it more interesting to play against. The auto missiles are kind of stupid too. Idk, it certainly gives Terran the edge but at the cost of gameplay. Ugly.

TvZ: Pfft.

TvT: Another siege breaker. I know I'm not the only person who has a problem with the idea of siege tanks being so easily killed.

Note: this unit sucks. I don't have much in the way of possible improvements for it as it doesn't fit into a niche very cleanly.


Widow Mine
+ Show Spoiler +

The stats need to be, and will be, tweaked. Possibly the units functionality as well. What happens when a stray muta hits one of these near the opponents base and decides to be smart and go into the opposing player's mineral line? Disregarding its ability to be used against you once planted onto a fast flying unit (or say, a zelot with charge that isn't targeted) it is a neat idea. Taking supply away from the deathball is always nice and I like positional units like mines, especially
since they can be killed with detection before they have the opportunity to do damage. It is a unit that can be wasted, or can pay off quite well. The randomness of it is a problem though. Placement of these mines will have to do with which positions on the map are traversed by which units which will end up making the unit extremely metagame-ish. I personally like units that reward raw skill more than studying the patterns of players in general but to each his own.

TvP: The fact that friendly fire is a thing sort of negates the usefulness of this thing as an oracle killer. For the same reason, you won't want these near you in a straight-up fight. So what does that leave it for? I suppose you could put them in places where tempests would go but it takes more than one to kill a tempest... I am going to make the bold claim that this unit won't be particularly good in this MU

TvZ: Zerglings can and will randomly diffuse these things very cost effectively just by moving around the map. Overlords might take take them with them as well. Once again, the friendly fire aspect makes them not ideal for dealing with mutas in your base. Having them on random ledges could work but it's a lot of work. It seems obvious too that it will take more than 1 to kill a BL. OH, there we go, it will do well to stop burrowed infestor runbys... :\

TvT: Will make drops less appealing. Might kill off a couple hellions here and there but hellions only cost minerals so thats actually a good trade for the guy who runs into them. Could be legitimately useful for killing vikings during air battles by burrowing in during a fight but that isn't what the unit was really made for or advertised to be so idk. I'm not feeling it in this MU either.


Note:
I'm thinking the AOE damage aspect of this unit is not going to stick if they decide to keep the unit at all. Having a unit that is relatively cheap and a guaranteed 100-200 dmg on another unit could be enough if the price is shifted accordingly. Hell, having this mine kill whatever it attaches to but nothing else could make it a lot more useful. I'm going to make a suggestion. If you don't want that then just skip to the next paragraph. I think what terran really wants is a way to deal with expensive spell casters that isn't the ghost (an expensive spellcaster). Having the widow mine without aoe damage makes it simpler to balance, less random, and more strategic. I think that having auto target should be an option on the mine, but also turning off the auto-target function so that you could purposely attach it to BLs, infestors, or other units would be amazing. This way, people who don't have the APM (or people who simply don't want to babysit it) can just have the mine kill whatever comes near it, but people who are good can also purposely kill the unit they are setting out to kill if they opponent does not prepare. This is how I would redesign the widow mine personally.


Final thoughts:
I love the direction that Protoss is going in, though I would make certain small adjustments, the overall feel of the race is improved in my opinion. With more difficult more rewarding macro alongside the option to be aggressive as well as new harassment tools, protoss is moving away from being a 1 dimensional race that either defends until it gets a strong lategame deathball or does some 2-3 base allin. It is turning into a race with legitmate options throughout the game and a lot more to think about. This means that individual play styles will shine through more. I'm very happy about this.

Terran is going in quite the opposite direction. The battle hellion can work, but it needs to be tweaked a bit. The Warhound is garbage (pardon my indecent direct insult). The widow mine is wrong. I've given my suggestions based on what I think is actually a problem. Terran has always lacked a way to deal with expensive spell casters outside of producing expensive spell casters themselves. The widow mine could serve as a way to snipe these types of units (or any unit the terran wants to really) if the AOE aspect is gone and targeting what it attaches to is an option. I like that the terran will be able to produce a beefy army that can contest, or even be stronger than what the protoss has on the ground, but I don't like that in order to do so, blizzard has created a unit that steps on the siege tank's anti-armored role. The siege tank is a much more interesting unit than the warhound so the warhound is not a suitable replacement, even though blizzard wants to give terrans a lategame army that is powerful.

I'm on percocet since I got my tonsils removed yesterday so I got too tired to include my thoughts on the zerg units. This is a blog though so I can kind of write whatever I want and not have to worry about people zapping me for incompleteness Thanks for reading if you did, feel free to argue with me or agree with me :3



****
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
August 14 2012 17:52 GMT
#2
The mothership core is the only thing that's being introduced that I think is actually a good design, it gives a form of defenders advantage and makes for the current metagame of Protoss to evolve a bit. The other units are stupid because they require you to completely change what's been working thus far for Protoss. The oracle is fine, but the entomb ability is garbage. The entire purpose of harassing is that you can do it while you're macroing yourself, but this doesn't work with entomb because their army will destroy the mineral blocks very quick. Even if you just auto-attack with workers it seems questionable how much damage you really did. So the only way for it to be really effective is if their army isn't at their base, AKA you're attacking or pressuring - but you don't want to do that because you've dumped minerals and gas into the oracle and the tech so that you can harass, so your army is weaker.

The tempest is the same thing, why would you spend money on that over a colossus - it makes no sense. Yes, it can attack from across the map, but the damage is low and it will never help you win a straight up battle. Both units seem like they don't fit into the current metagame, and I think the best thing would be to have units that augment what already exists, not fuck it up.
VictorJones
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States235 Posts
August 14 2012 18:07 GMT
#3
Well, having the option to make the oracle and the tempest doesn't stop you from making colossi. It just gives you the option to make oracles and/or tempests instead. I'm not sure how much of my post you read, but I did mention that entomb should be tweaked a bit so it is less easy for workers to kill but also doesn't hit all of the mineral patches. Also, terrans generally like to be out on the map pressuring the P so it should be very possible to find opportunities to entomb their patches while their army is away, although I don't know how mech play will work just yet since there is so little data on that. Against bio as it exists now though I think it's perfectly usable.

Furthermore, you don't generally want more than say, 4-5 colossi in PvT or PvZ. When you get extra money, there will be an opportunity to invest in things like the tempest that will pressure the opposing player to attack into your superior position therefore helping you win in a straight up battle. Yeah?
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-14 18:19:54
August 14 2012 18:17 GMT
#4
Oh my god protoss is going to be a pain in the ass in hots -.-

Tempest attack to forcean engage, masscloak+ff to kill half the enemy army and then recall out-g.g.

Also, i would love to see proxy nexii for recall lol

And perhaps dropping mines and burrowing them around nexii... that would be a nice counter to recall xD
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Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
August 14 2012 21:13 GMT
#5
They removed one of the oracle's abilities since the blizzcon build. It was the phase out spell that essentially removed a building from play (including any tech it unlocks) for a short time. I think they replaced it with the mass cloaking from the mothership since they said that they didn't want the mothership to be such a clear target and also that they decided on keeping the overseer so it's too much like contaminate. I think I would like that ability a lot more than entomb though, it would give the oracle some utility with shutting down static defense and induce some clever play with shutting out tech paths or using it as a forcefield.

I'm not sure how to fix entomb, it's even worse than the phoenix' graviton beam as far as unstoppable harass goes. And unlike graviton beam, the entomb ability is a lot more mindless, since you don't need to decide as much whether you want to save up some energy in case of an aggressive move by your opponent. You can just cast it every two minutes, like an offensive inject. Maybe together with energize it will reward more active play but who knows.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Greenhit
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States200 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-14 21:40:47
August 14 2012 21:40 GMT
#6
Thinking battle hellion is going to break TvZ mech, just look at how they shred Zealots.
"And where do you live Simon?" "In the weak and the wounded, Doc."
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-14 23:43:51
August 14 2012 23:42 GMT
#7
The Tempest is a terrible unit and your logic is way off. You say that it needs to be babysat since it's slow and vulnerable, yet it breaks up deathball play. These are entirely contradictory. The Tempest will only contribute to deathball play.

Entomb is absolute crap. Workers break through it in seconds, meaning the investment that you put into making an Oracle is pretty bad. Improve or scrap the spell completely.

The Warhound and Battle Hellion are the two worst things in this entire expansion. All they do is make an a-move composition for T (something that we shouldn't ever work towards) while calling it mech, yet it isn't even the mech playstyle. Mech involves positional play, immobility, and Tanks; that's what makes it unique from bio.

The rest of the units range from "meh" to "good". I like the concept of the Widow Mine; the application is currently pretty useless. I don't like a 13 range 60 damage Mothership Core; it completely nullifies early aggression against Protoss, which is really stupid. It also gives early Recall, which is also a terrible idea; there should be some kind of risk in early aggression. I'm still very undecided on the Viper. The Swarm Host seems like a decent concept, but it'll take a lot of tweaking.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
VictorJones
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States235 Posts
August 15 2012 00:30 GMT
#8

Stratos_speAr United States. August 15 2012 08:42.
The Tempest is a terrible unit and your logic is way off. You say that it needs to be babysat since it's slow and vulnerable, yet it breaks up deathball play. These are entirely contradictory. The Tempest will only contribute to deathball play.


Against mech (assuming the units from the battle report are kept as they are, which I hope some of them aren't) Terran wont have an answer to the tempest outside of vikings and maybe thors. If they are using vikings, you need some stalkers to protect the tempests. Some stalkers (or phoenixes) plus a couple of tempests isn't a deathball.
The tempest isn't worth its cost in money or supply if you just want to use it as part of your deathball in terms of dmg output. You could have one or two with your deathball to pressure your opponent into engaging sure, and you could use them in battles if you already have them out on the field, but I'm sure that's not the only way we will see them used. Ergo, not purely a deathball unit/ will not ONLY contribute to deathball play. I'm sure a lot of creative players will find ways to make these bad boys shine in interesting ways.

Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
August 15 2012 01:15 GMT
#9
On August 15 2012 09:30 VictorJones wrote:
Show nested quote +

Stratos_speAr United States. August 15 2012 08:42.
The Tempest is a terrible unit and your logic is way off. You say that it needs to be babysat since it's slow and vulnerable, yet it breaks up deathball play. These are entirely contradictory. The Tempest will only contribute to deathball play.


Against mech (assuming the units from the battle report are kept as they are, which I hope some of them aren't) Terran wont have an answer to the tempest outside of vikings and maybe thors. If they are using vikings, you need some stalkers to protect the tempests. Some stalkers (or phoenixes) plus a couple of tempests isn't a deathball.
The tempest isn't worth its cost in money or supply if you just want to use it as part of your deathball in terms of dmg output. You could have one or two with your deathball to pressure your opponent into engaging sure, and you could use them in battles if you already have them out on the field, but I'm sure that's not the only way we will see them used. Ergo, not purely a deathball unit/ will not ONLY contribute to deathball play. I'm sure a lot of creative players will find ways to make these bad boys shine in interesting ways.



Separate your Stalkers from your deathball and your deathball is going to get crushed. This is how the Protoss race works. Individual units are crap because of the Warp Gate mechanic; they synergize incredibly well and this causes the deathball syndrome. If you split enough Stalkers off to defend your Tempests your main army will get rolled instantly by the rest of the mech army.

The concept itself isn't terrible; a very long ranged unit that can fly. However, because of how far it is up the tech tree, its cost, and its production time, it will take a very long time to get. At that point, there will be plenty of Vikings/Corruptors available, so you won't be able to use it away from your deathball. Making it replace the Carrier is an incredibly stupid idea. It would be a decent unit if it was made as a light harass unit instead of a capital ship.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
VictorJones
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States235 Posts
August 15 2012 05:30 GMT
#10
Okay, I actually like the idea of making it a light harass unit instead of a capital ship. I definitely don't think it should be replacing the carrier. I just really like the idea of having a long-ass ranged air unit in the protoss arsenal that allows for the interesting positional play that I crave for my race.
With the current stats on the units, I don't honestly see a way for the protoss deathball to avoid being crushed by the terran mech deathball stalkers or no. Constantly picking away at terran forces to weaken their army while you build yours up and gain an advantage is how I envision the Tempest working ideally. I guess I'm more talking about that concept which we agree is at least not bad. It might not happen to work out that way which would make me sad. Time will tell if blizzard can find the right place on the tech tree for it. I sincerely hope they do (assuming that our theory crafting is in fact on the money... which is always a leap of faith lol)
tns
Profile Joined June 2011
1054 Posts
August 16 2012 21:53 GMT
#11
Warhound + Show Spoiler +
TvP: Counters everything on the ground besides zelots. Moves relatively quickly, has range equal or higher to/than everything on the ground besides colossi. Has lots of HP so it isn't really vulnerable to storm. Seems OP in ?tandem with battle hellions. I don't think it's range should be so high since it kind of steps on the seige tanks role. I don't honestly know what should be done with this unit in this MU. I think maybe lowering its range so it exists as more of a buffer unit for tanks would be
an interesting way to make it less of a replacement and more of an intelligent positional unit. Also, since the potential to hard-counter this and hellions together is not apparent, making it kiteable is one way to make it more interesting to play against. The auto missiles are kind of stupid too. Idk, it certainly gives Terran the edge but at the cost of gameplay. Ugly.

How do auto missiles work?
Wasn't it supposed to shot air? if not it it like a new non siege tank which might cost less ressources?
troll : LotV is gonna be the brood war remake units! yeah we've got the most balance game ;D
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nyaru267
Profile Joined January 2012
United States117 Posts
August 19 2012 15:26 GMT
#12
Everything but the mothership core sucks for protoss. There forcing us to go stargate in order to get out these units which I hate doing.

Temptest sucks no damage range doesn't matter at all if it cant kill anything.

Oracle will die to quickly from either leaving stalkers at the back or cannons. Zerg will leave a spore and deal with it fine same thing with a missile turret for T.

Mothership core is the only useful thing we are getting and the only thing I think that will matter.

The builds will be the same except going stargate more vs zerg so I feel that we as protoss will be week.
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