|
So I was chatting with a friend on Skype one day while playing Diablo 3. He discovered that I played StarCraft 2 and was incredibly excited. As we were growing bored of grinding Act 2, he suggested that we play some SC2. I was pretty excited until he said that we should play 3s or 4s. I laughed and asked if he was serious. Now we’ve talked for a while and he is a serious gamer; he reads Battle.net forums on Diablo 3 to see what people are thinking and watches streams to keep up with the metagame in both games. It surprised me that he was completely serious about 2v2 and other team games. I personally never found them to be serious competition. They are incredibly fun but I never take them seriously. In fact in most 2v2 games, I off-race as Protoss and cannon rush or play some other ridiculous build.
And it seems that others in the community would agree with me. Do you remember the Season 5 of the EG Master’s Cup Series? It featured a 2v2 portion. There were a few teams that would rely heavily on their 2s team to carry them into the ace match. But when the managers of that tournament asked for criticism or there were complaints about the tournament, the 2v2 portion was mentioned most. Obviously in the last season, that portion is now gone. Personally, I never watched it. I found it extremely boring. I feel that every 2v2 game hinges on whether or not the opening cheese succeeds or fails. There are no macro games. Any game that goes past the first 10 minutes seems very awkward.
Remember these guys? To me, they’re part of old school mouz. And I remember how strong Catz/Drewbie were in 2v2.
When I first started playing StarCraft 2, my college roommate and I played 2s. We played pretty seriously and had these plans/builds that we would try and execute. The problem was that every single game opened with a cannon rush or 2rax or 6pool. Then one of us would die and it would become a 2v1 comp stomp. It was more frustrating to play 2s just because the entire game was dependent on whether or not you survived the cheese. It seemed like there was no macro games or any type of following strategy. But I never played at a high level. Maybe there was something to it.
If you just look at TL and Liquipedia, you can find evidence that the team-game scene is alive. ProTech is a featured streamer who regularly pulls in a couple hundred of viewers.
There was the Prodigy Team Star League 2v2 tournament with a decent prize pool, great players, and two seasons. In the forums, there are threads dedicated to finding partners. Again, it seems like I’m missing something.
In BroodWar, Proleague had a 2v2 portion. It seems like there were some extremely good games and players that came out of the 2s. According to Liquipedia, Nestea was a strong 2v2 player. And apparently Reach and Yellow were a sick 2v2 team for KTF. But unfortunately, I did not follow BW. This might add to some of my ignorance and my opinion.
With all of this evidence, it would seem that my opinion is wrong. It appears that 2v2 can be a viable and strongly competitive format; And that 3s and 4s can be played seriously. But I can’t think about team-games without associating them with double 6pools and mono-battles. I think I personally don’t enjoy team games in a truly competitive format such as a tournament.
But I wouldn’t mind someone trying to convince me otherwise. Is there anyone who plays/follows competitive 2v2? Why do you enjoy it? Do you enjoy it more than 1v1? Do you play 4s? Link me some VODs. Show me why team-games can be competitive and that there’s a strategy behind the madness.
 
|
Yes, there's a lot of cheesing in team games but there's a lot of it in 1s as well. If you don't know how to react to cheese then you simply die...
I use to play 2s somewhat with both terrans and zergs at high masters (maybe won like 1 out of 30 games vs Protech) but that kind of completely stopped with D3, DotA 2, and CSGO releasing. It's extremely frustrating playing as a protoss on a split base map dealing with anything zerg ( hellion / lings, 4gate / ling, baneling rushes, and reaper mara / lings ). You need to play at the top of your game to win against strategies that take nearly zero skill. But then again, some teams still manage to fuck up these easy strats and lose to a counter push.
4s is a complete joke because everyone just plays ZZTx. All the 4s maps are split base (either by yourself or with one other person), it's basically impossible to stop even a half ass double ling, hellion / mara / reaper / whatever if your own team isn't some variant of ZZxx. I don't play 4s anymore but I'm guessing most people still play some variant of ZZxx.
No one 6pools in a team game, it's extremely weak compared to a 10 or standard pool.
Most games involved defending the push, counter-pushing, and winning.
Team games are frustrating and unrewarding as a toss, well except maybe if you play PP? Azide and SuperNinja are awesome <3 Well that's my take as a toss.
|
The potency of cheese, which is already higher in SC2 1v1 than in BW 1v1, is magnified because multiple players can focus on crippling or killing one opponent, at which point it should not be possible for the other to win. Even now, there are plenty of maps in the pool that spawn teammates a distance from each other, which makes cheese really deadly. It requires good scouting, overpreparation for cheese, and some luck to not die to cheese. Plus, the combination of multiple race's units without the drawback of having to tech up to them yourself via neural parasited workers has proven overpowered in many cases, and is generally considered impossible to balance without unbalancing 1v1s. I didn't watch many 2v2 tournaments, but it was generally a Terran/Zerg team that won, as that is the most powerful race combo in WoL.
Team games can be competitive, but the imbalances dwarf any imbalance in 1v1, and cheese is simply too strong for them to have the variety that 1v1s do. The other thing is that really good players typically play 1v1s, and are unwilling to play 2v2s as well, since you have to practice two somewhat different things instead of focusing on one. So the players who practice 2v2 a lot are often low-tier progamers. As such, the games are unlikely to be as good to spectate as 1v1 is now.
2v2 was also fairly imbalanced in Brood War. And it wasn't so much that Nestea was good as it was that Reach carried him  .
|
Personally I just think that there's more transitioning out of cheese in 1s. Like you said, it just seems like push and counter push. Which is fine. I just wanted to get other ideas of how games could go. I obviously know very little.
Thanks for the opinion though!
|
Team games are generally looked down upon. Its kind of sad, but I just put it out there. Its seen as very casual because the game is not balanced towards team games and because there is so much that can go wrong when your opponents double cheese, especially a 10 pool + proxy marauder slow / combat shield marines kind of build because you can focus one guy down and just LOL at the other team mate while he attempts to beat a 400/400 army with a 200/200 army. This is magnified if your opponents are zerg because of GGlord infestor haha. On a more serious note, team leagues pop up here and there but your best bet is to just them casually and cheese the shit out of people  .
|
i like to post this every time a team game post comes up. There is no such thing as cheese in 2v2 the sooner you accept that the better.
|
On August 07 2012 11:27 iamperfection wrote:
i like to post this every time a team game post comes up. There is no such thing as cheese in 2v2 the sooner you accept that the better.
So what would you define it as? Push and counter push? Elaborate please, I'd like to know what you're thinking
|
On August 07 2012 11:44 CPTBadAss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 11:27 iamperfection wrote:
i like to post this every time a team game post comes up. There is no such thing as cheese in 2v2 the sooner you accept that the better. So what would you define it as? Push and counter push? Elaborate please, I'd like to know what you're thinking
The fact that their are two players instead of one changes everything about the game. This makes builds that would be "cheese" in 1v1 are actually quite viable and in some cases much better than "standered" play.
For example is 6-10 pool considered cheese in 1v1 for the most part yes. However in many maps it can be quite vaible and even encorauged. One of the oldest tz strategies was to 10 pool while the t hardcore rushed for hellions this build could outright kill some teams if they didnt prepare accordingly.
|
On August 07 2012 11:50 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 11:44 CPTBadAss wrote:On August 07 2012 11:27 iamperfection wrote:
i like to post this every time a team game post comes up. There is no such thing as cheese in 2v2 the sooner you accept that the better. So what would you define it as? Push and counter push? Elaborate please, I'd like to know what you're thinking The fact that their are two players instead of one changes everything about the game. This makes builds that would be "cheese" in 1v1 are actually quite viable and in some cases much better than "standered" play. For example is 6-10 pool considered cheese in 1v1 for the most part yes. However in many maps it can be quite vaible and even encorauged. One of the oldest tz strategies was to 10 pool while the t hardcore rushed for hellions this build could outright kill some teams if they didnt prepare accordingly.
So what if I thought that a 6pool into a 3 base roach push was standered play in 1v1?
Anyways, so you're saying that team games encourage quicker games? Or just different play styles? Because cheese in also viable in 1v1. That doesn't mean it makes me more interested in watching those games or playing that style.
|
Team games can be competitive, but they are stuck right now in awful maps with very few dedicated and talented players. 2v2 is at the stage 1v1 was in the beta because of the lack of tournaments and quality maps. And that that point, you really can't even talk about balance because no one has any real clue about what's going on. Considering how many seasons of GSL it took 1v1 to move away from constant cheese and 1-base nonsense - developments which required several iterations of map and strategy development completely independent of any balance changes - it will be a long time until 2v2 gets anywhere close to the same.
It takes a lot of talented, dedicated people a long time to develop a strategy game into something reasonably fun to watch. Unfortunately there just isn't much of that going on in team games right now.
|
I actually think 2v2 has improved a lot since they changed the map pool, you can veto every split base map so strategies which split the team mates early aren't nearly as strong anymore. Things that can trip people up though, is that if you both attempt to do safe 1v1 builds, you will die, it's just too middle of the road, and usually there aren't enough expansions close for you to both safely fast exand, so you need to consider yourself two parts of a whole, one of you can tech twice as fast as you can in 1v1, and still be safe.
3v3 and 4v4 to me are really really difficult to get any kind of coherent strategy going there are just too many moving parts, combined with very split up bases and very few expansions it's tough to imagine them ever getting to the point even where 2v2 is.
|
U know 3v3 is the ultimate balanced matchup ever more then 1v1! If the 3v3 tournament require u to have one terran, one protoss and one zerg its mirror and balanced. everyone can do everything! No on have an edge. I don´t think many will watch it, or it will get big but it is more balanced then 1v1!
I like 2v2 because its faster. 1v1 is kind of sit and macro 10 min then play. For me the game start after 10 min. There is not many but some 2v2 tournaments in EU. ESL is weekly NR 94 next week. I have seen Pinkcup do some 2v2, Hazard lan, and I have one now I host.
I find it balanced. People I meet on ladder know how to stop cannon rush 10 pool. And I (me and team) know how to stop it. It’s like “yes free win they do the cannon rush 10 pool”.
And what Toboe said, 1v1 was what 2v2 is now. And like many other have said 2v2 metegame have changed a lot. But it need to get rid of current ladder pool (that is better).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PParY.png)
