• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:18
CEST 20:18
KST 03:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced25BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 793 users

RE lesson 1

Blogs > Adrenal6land
Post a Reply
Adrenal6land
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States46 Posts
July 28 2012 09:57 GMT
#1
Yesterday i put up a post with first lesson of game theory

DO NOT play a dominated strategy. Play the dominating strategy.

i guess before i move on, i should clarify a few things. Yes I did cannon rush and "cheese" a lot of season 1. But i in no way think that cheesing is a winning strategy. unless you know your enemies build and strategy before hand, in which case i would say, you DO NOT control the actions of others and others do NOT controll your actions. so i would advise against using the "meta game" or any earlier knowledge to sway your gameplay in real time.
The main thing i want to clarify is that a player in this case is thought to know the pay outs, and is thought to know several strategies and facts about the game. of course as the game progresses, the meta game evolves and players learn more and more about what is and what is not a dominating strategy. This of course, requires a LOT of testing, playing, failing, tweeking, trying, guessing. but for any and all of these lessons, the player is thought to be at a high level of understanding and have a decent level of mechanis and game strategy.
I.E. you will not be able to properly execute a dominating strategy if you do not have the proper mechanics (know your hot keys, enough APM, playing a different race/style, playing on a server with lag, etcetcetc). I am assuming that you all know by now, that you can not cannon rush without a forge
The second point that i want to make, is that everyone has a really hard time letting go of the term "cheese". i know that that is what people call early rushes and really anoying easy "high risk, low reward" strategies. But the fact of the matter is, people just decided to call it cheese. Ill go ahead and repeat a point from yesterday. I used to cannon rush. for about 2 seasons. beta, season 1 and maybe some of season 2. I cannon rushed so much that not only did i cannon rush, but i cannon defended, i cannon contained, and most importantly, i cannon EXPANDED. The reason this is so important is that i was FFE'ing since season 1. very early in the game, protoss players realized that cannons were good. and guess what, they are very good against zerg and units with short range. If you are going to call a cannon rush cheese, then you might as well call a forge fast expand cheese because it is almost the exact same opening. pylong. forge. canon. think about that long and hard.

DO NOT play a dominated strategy. Play a Dominating strategy.

1 more thing i want to clarify.
Playing a dominating strategy will lead to results which are inefficient.

believe it or not, playing a long drawn out macro, 1hour long game, is INEFFICIENT. In the ideal scenario, you would make 10 probes, pull all your probes, attack with 10 probes, and you would win..... the ideal strategy for any protoss player is a 10 probe rush.
OF COURSE IT IS. we all know that if you tried that in game, in the real world, it would NOT WORK. The idea of having a dominating strategy is that it gives you the best odds of winning no matter what. I like what someone said yesterday about all ins and long strategies. If you play a short all in strategy, the problem with that is that you have 1 chance, if player 2 does not make a mistake and plays a better strategy, the game is over, (or your left waaaaay behind) and you do not win. The good thing about playing a dominating strategy, is you play long enough where your oponent has MANY chances to skrew up, you have many chances at winning the game. your chances of winning outweigh the risks.
your reward must be much bigger than the amount of risk it took to get it.
so i guess i can use this as a conclusion for today
Risk<reward
do not risk something, if you are not sure that you have a very high chance or reward. should i refrase that??????? yah? should i say it again? :D one more time???

DO NOT play a dominated strategy. Play a Dominating strategy.
play to win

*
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
July 28 2012 10:56 GMT
#2
Cheese is the definition for a high risk high reward strategy. It is a strategy; the kind of strategy is a cheese strategy. There are also long term strategies and mid term strategies and standard strategies and new strategies, hence why we have terms like cheese, standard, and non-standard. So I disagree with you that we should get rid of the term "cheese". I do think it is often considered a non-strategy or an unskilled strategy when it is not necessarily so.

Forge Fast Expand is from Brood War, not from SCII Protoss players thinking about it. People tried BW strategies, some worked and some didn't. FFE is one that did. It isn't cheese because it isn't high risk. It is classified as standard because a lot of people do it.

The thing about good strategies (that is, strategies that win more than they lose) is that over time the metagame shifts so that they start losing more than they win. There is no one strategy that will always be the best, unless Blizzard really screws up the balance of something. So far they haven't, although they've screwed it up a little it isn't enough to make any one strategy perfect. That's one of the things I love about both SCII and SCBW; the metagame constantly shifts and evolves, as strategies are designed to beat strategies which are designed to beat other strategies, and so on ad infinitum.

Once you have your mechanics down, the best way to improve is to set forth an idea of what you want, and then create your own build order to achieve that. If it's the same as an existing BO, that's fine, but the important thing is for you to personally fine tune and test the build until you understand it comprehensively. You will learn what builds it is strong against, and what it is weak against. And when you find a build that is strong against it, you can add in a new build that beats that strong build. As you continue this process you will become a thoroughly good player, with something to beat everyone.

Until someone who has done the same as you has one more strategy on the chain of strategies that you don't know the counter to

Bisu is the best at the Bisu Build because he knows its weaknesses and strengths and timings more thoroughly than anyone else. Do the same, whether it is with an existing build or your own. Know everything there is to know about a build and you will understand when and where to use it and be able to use it to its fullest potential.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 4
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
ZZZero.O84
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Clem vs TBD
Reynor vs TBD
RotterdaM2902
ComeBackTV 2319
IndyStarCraft 740
WardiTV517
CranKy Ducklings218
3DClanTV 189
Rex134
EnkiAlexander 105
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 2902
IndyStarCraft 740
Rex 134
Vindicta 46
MindelVK 10
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 31519
Nal_rA 608
Larva 531
Shine 322
firebathero 252
BeSt 184
Soulkey 129
ZZZero.O 84
Dewaltoss 80
Hyun 67
[ Show more ]
yabsab 33
sSak 28
Free 27
Terrorterran 8
IntoTheRainbow 6
Dota 2
Gorgc6602
qojqva3904
Counter-Strike
fl0m3972
flusha153
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox819
Mew2King341
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor634
Liquid`Hasu466
Other Games
B2W.Neo730
Hui .197
KnowMe155
QueenE97
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2284
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 43
• Adnapsc2 14
• Legendk 9
• iHatsuTV 8
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Nemesis2332
• WagamamaTV710
League of Legends
• Jankos1961
Other Games
• imaqtpie1027
• Shiphtur207
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
16h 42m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 15h
WardiTV European League
1d 21h
Online Event
1d 23h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.