• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:18
CEST 01:18
KST 08:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview8[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21
Community News
ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo15Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28)10[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June4
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted J188 – Nhà Cái Cá Cược Trực Tuyến Đẳng Cấp Châu Á Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes?
Tourneys
GSL CK #4 20-21th June Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 530 One For All The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Battle cruiser feet vs Carrier fleet Fact based Zerg Upgrade Tier List vespene.gg — BW replays in browser Data needed
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSLAN 4 is Coming! Small VOD Thread 2.0 The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Relatively freeroll strategies Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Why doesn't anyone use restoration?
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia {D-2} Late to making 20.06.2026 memorable [p]94718
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread [H]Internet/Gaming Cafe Tips and Tricks The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How To Predict Tilt in Espor…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 15392 users

Ideas and theoriecraft ZvP, ZvZ, PvZ

Blogs > craaaaack
Post a Reply
craaaaack
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
479 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 13:37:02
July 20 2012 02:18 GMT
#1
Some ideas and thoughts:

1) ZvX There are a lot of places on maps where you can hide a changeling close to a cliff so you won't be able to see him using the default camera perspective. Could be usefull to have a reliably scout near the entrance of your opponents natural or at some other key points.

2) ZvZ After scouting your opponents lair timing one can estimate really well when his infestors are going to pop. Assuming some kill on your opponents part, he will get his infestors out shortly after the energy upgrade finishes. Using an overseer to contaminate the infestation pit before the upgrade finished but while infestors are already building, you'll create a timing window for roughly 20 seconds during which your opponent can't utilize the full potential of his infestors because he can only use infesterd terrans. I think it's possible develop a really strong timing attack involving this.

3) ZvP Assuming FFE and fast 3 hatch the game usually evolves into protoss trying to take his third and zerg either trying to deny it (roach/ling aggression) or to take a 4. while getting a hive and teching to broods. Some of the bigger, newer maps discourage zerg aggression because the reinforcement distances are too far. Protoss knows this and so they tend to skimp on defense and take a faster 3. than they would be able on a map with closer distances. Now zerg could place a nydus somewhat near the nat/third of protoss to make the distance short again. It makes the zerg reinforcement faster and I don't think protoss can deny a nydus somewhere out on the map because they don't have map presence at this part of the game.

The ability of zergs to play aggressive on big maps aswell would make protoss play more safely. This would help zergs a lot imo because they know protoss won't be going for an "economic cheese".

4) ZvP FFE, 3hatch. If you were able to early verify 100% protoss is going for the sentry/immortal all-in wouldn't it be a good idea to get a hydraden real quick and pump out hydras instead of roaches? You'll need 4 or even 5 gas for this but hydras are way more efficient per supply and you'd stay on 3 hatches instead of 4 (additional macro hatch). Hydras deal really well with bot sentries and immortals and the biggest danger about the all-in isn't that the protoss overpowers you through mass but that he cuts your army in chunks making big parts of it inefficient. Hydras on the other hand with their 6 range won't care that much about some forcefields.

5) PvZ Talking about protoss struggling to take his third, how about a stargate opening (after the usual FFE etc) getting a few voidrays/phoenix while teching straight do DTs. The only real purpose of the air units is to establish map control and kill overlords out on the map. As long as your (maybe like 5?) phoenix camp somewhere in the middle of the map stopping any overseer (which are slow) from coming over, wouldn't like 3-4 DTs make any possible pressure from zerg impossible and let you take a very safe third without ever being punished?
I don't see a way for zerg to apply pressure on the protoss after DTs are out. If he goes for corruptors or infestors it's already as if he said 'ok you got your third up and I can't do anything about it so let's move on to the next stage of the game'.

PS: Could a mod change it to "theorycraft"? English2hard.

▲ I was really thirsty while playing a match. All my teammates were gone, so I drank from the water bottle that was next to me. It was very good. I thank the owner of the bottle.
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
July 20 2012 03:20 GMT
#2
It took years for Bisu to figure out that secret build #5, you may be the next bonjwa at this rate.
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
CapnAmerica
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States508 Posts
July 20 2012 03:53 GMT
#3
There are two problems with #5, speedlings move way faster than DTs (though DTs can be used for defense at a base) and fungal is detection and great for heavy harassment, while those same infestors can also help speedlings kill a nexus with ITs. I'd really like to see more overseer sniping play with air units with DTs out, though.

1 and 2 are really cool.
3 is something I agree with, but nydus hasn't been smoothly worked in to most Zerg's playstyles yet.
4 is not so great, you need that roach buffer, hydras are solid DPS behind them though. If you know what your opponent is going to do beforehand, then yes, that's fantastic. But you have to be sure. (i.e. he's not making colossi...)
After all this time, I still haven't figured out the correlation between sexual orientation and beating an unprepared opponent. Are homosexuals the next koreans? Many players seem to think it's an unfair advantage. - pandaburn
craaaaack
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
479 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:21:20
July 20 2012 12:18 GMT
#4
On July 20 2012 12:20 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
It took years for Bisu to figure out that secret build #5, you may be the next bonjwa at this rate.


You are mixing things up. The BISU BUILD starts with an early pylon at the natural. Every protoss doing FFE is doing the BISU BUILD.

On July 20 2012 12:53 CapnAmerica wrote:
There are two problems with #5, speedlings move way faster than DTs (though DTs can be used for defense at a base) and fungal is detection and great for heavy harassment, while those same infestors can also help speedlings kill a nexus with ITs. I'd really like to see more overseer sniping play with air units with DTs out, though.


The DTs are supposed to be used for defense. Fungal comes into play way later (assuming the usual ~55-60 lair from zerg) and is not a threat to protoss' plan to take a third.

4 is not so great, you need that roach buffer, hydras are solid DPS behind them though. If you know what your opponent is going to do beforehand, then yes, that's fantastic. But you have to be sure. (i.e. he's not making colossi...)


Scouting a high sentry count and a first immortal is a very good indicator there is going to be a sentry/immortal all-in. Protoss is short on gas and can't get both collosi and lots of sentries.
Sentries don't do that much damage and immortals aren't as scary vs hydras as they are vs roaches. I think you missunderstand the strength of the protoss build: it's not strong by itself but instead it's good vs heavy roach compositions because it perfectly abuses the weakness of roaches (short range; pretty low dps so you can actually fight parts of the army).
▲ I was really thirsty while playing a match. All my teammates were gone, so I drank from the water bottle that was next to me. It was very good. I thank the owner of the bottle.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
19:00
Group Stage - Day 3
XuanXuan vs Jaystar
Mihu vs Messiah
eOnzErG vs Dewalt
Bonyth vs Jaystar
TerrOr vs Messiah
XuanXuan vs Mihu
eOnzErG vs Jaystar
ZZZero.O183
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ByuN 586
SpeCial 83
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 183
NaDa 19
League of Legends
Doublelift5785
Counter-Strike
summit1g11248
Other Games
PiGStarcraft739
JimRising 348
Livibee110
Trikslyr58
ViBE45
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1156
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 98
• RyuSc2 20
• Sammyuel 19
• HeavenSC 10
• Response 3
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 8
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie1116
• Scarra765
• Shiphtur155
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
43m
WardiTV Spring Champion…
11h 43m
GSL
12h 43m
Maru vs Reynor
Lambo vs Solar
IPSL
16h 43m
Hawk vs Julia
Patches Events
17h 43m
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
19h 43m
Dewalt vs Messiah
Bonyth vs Mihu
TerrOr vs XuanXuan
eOnzErG vs Messiah
Jaystar vs Mihu
Dewalt vs XuanXuan
Bonyth vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
1d
WardiTV Weekly
1d 11h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 16h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
3 days
Douyu Cup 2020
4 days
Oliveira vs Trap
Jieshi vs XY
soO vs FanTaSy
TY vs Coffee
Douyu Cup 2020
5 days
Neeb vs Impact
MacSed vs Cyan
Scarlett vs Kelazhur
INnoVation vs Dear
Douyu Cup 2020
6 days
Maestros of the Game
6 days
herO vs Classic
Maru vs Serral
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-06-19
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 1
SCTL 2026 Spring
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026

Upcoming

CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
BCC 2026
Light HT
Heroes Pulsing #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.