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Active: 1577 users

Ideas and theoriecraft ZvP, ZvZ, PvZ

Blogs > craaaaack
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craaaaack
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
479 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 13:37:02
July 20 2012 02:18 GMT
#1
Some ideas and thoughts:

1) ZvX There are a lot of places on maps where you can hide a changeling close to a cliff so you won't be able to see him using the default camera perspective. Could be usefull to have a reliably scout near the entrance of your opponents natural or at some other key points.

2) ZvZ After scouting your opponents lair timing one can estimate really well when his infestors are going to pop. Assuming some kill on your opponents part, he will get his infestors out shortly after the energy upgrade finishes. Using an overseer to contaminate the infestation pit before the upgrade finished but while infestors are already building, you'll create a timing window for roughly 20 seconds during which your opponent can't utilize the full potential of his infestors because he can only use infesterd terrans. I think it's possible develop a really strong timing attack involving this.

3) ZvP Assuming FFE and fast 3 hatch the game usually evolves into protoss trying to take his third and zerg either trying to deny it (roach/ling aggression) or to take a 4. while getting a hive and teching to broods. Some of the bigger, newer maps discourage zerg aggression because the reinforcement distances are too far. Protoss knows this and so they tend to skimp on defense and take a faster 3. than they would be able on a map with closer distances. Now zerg could place a nydus somewhat near the nat/third of protoss to make the distance short again. It makes the zerg reinforcement faster and I don't think protoss can deny a nydus somewhere out on the map because they don't have map presence at this part of the game.

The ability of zergs to play aggressive on big maps aswell would make protoss play more safely. This would help zergs a lot imo because they know protoss won't be going for an "economic cheese".

4) ZvP FFE, 3hatch. If you were able to early verify 100% protoss is going for the sentry/immortal all-in wouldn't it be a good idea to get a hydraden real quick and pump out hydras instead of roaches? You'll need 4 or even 5 gas for this but hydras are way more efficient per supply and you'd stay on 3 hatches instead of 4 (additional macro hatch). Hydras deal really well with bot sentries and immortals and the biggest danger about the all-in isn't that the protoss overpowers you through mass but that he cuts your army in chunks making big parts of it inefficient. Hydras on the other hand with their 6 range won't care that much about some forcefields.

5) PvZ Talking about protoss struggling to take his third, how about a stargate opening (after the usual FFE etc) getting a few voidrays/phoenix while teching straight do DTs. The only real purpose of the air units is to establish map control and kill overlords out on the map. As long as your (maybe like 5?) phoenix camp somewhere in the middle of the map stopping any overseer (which are slow) from coming over, wouldn't like 3-4 DTs make any possible pressure from zerg impossible and let you take a very safe third without ever being punished?
I don't see a way for zerg to apply pressure on the protoss after DTs are out. If he goes for corruptors or infestors it's already as if he said 'ok you got your third up and I can't do anything about it so let's move on to the next stage of the game'.

PS: Could a mod change it to "theorycraft"? English2hard.

▲ I was really thirsty while playing a match. All my teammates were gone, so I drank from the water bottle that was next to me. It was very good. I thank the owner of the bottle.
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
July 20 2012 03:20 GMT
#2
It took years for Bisu to figure out that secret build #5, you may be the next bonjwa at this rate.
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
CapnAmerica
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States508 Posts
July 20 2012 03:53 GMT
#3
There are two problems with #5, speedlings move way faster than DTs (though DTs can be used for defense at a base) and fungal is detection and great for heavy harassment, while those same infestors can also help speedlings kill a nexus with ITs. I'd really like to see more overseer sniping play with air units with DTs out, though.

1 and 2 are really cool.
3 is something I agree with, but nydus hasn't been smoothly worked in to most Zerg's playstyles yet.
4 is not so great, you need that roach buffer, hydras are solid DPS behind them though. If you know what your opponent is going to do beforehand, then yes, that's fantastic. But you have to be sure. (i.e. he's not making colossi...)
After all this time, I still haven't figured out the correlation between sexual orientation and beating an unprepared opponent. Are homosexuals the next koreans? Many players seem to think it's an unfair advantage. - pandaburn
craaaaack
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
479 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:21:20
July 20 2012 12:18 GMT
#4
On July 20 2012 12:20 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
It took years for Bisu to figure out that secret build #5, you may be the next bonjwa at this rate.


You are mixing things up. The BISU BUILD starts with an early pylon at the natural. Every protoss doing FFE is doing the BISU BUILD.

On July 20 2012 12:53 CapnAmerica wrote:
There are two problems with #5, speedlings move way faster than DTs (though DTs can be used for defense at a base) and fungal is detection and great for heavy harassment, while those same infestors can also help speedlings kill a nexus with ITs. I'd really like to see more overseer sniping play with air units with DTs out, though.


The DTs are supposed to be used for defense. Fungal comes into play way later (assuming the usual ~55-60 lair from zerg) and is not a threat to protoss' plan to take a third.

4 is not so great, you need that roach buffer, hydras are solid DPS behind them though. If you know what your opponent is going to do beforehand, then yes, that's fantastic. But you have to be sure. (i.e. he's not making colossi...)


Scouting a high sentry count and a first immortal is a very good indicator there is going to be a sentry/immortal all-in. Protoss is short on gas and can't get both collosi and lots of sentries.
Sentries don't do that much damage and immortals aren't as scary vs hydras as they are vs roaches. I think you missunderstand the strength of the protoss build: it's not strong by itself but instead it's good vs heavy roach compositions because it perfectly abuses the weakness of roaches (short range; pretty low dps so you can actually fight parts of the army).
▲ I was really thirsty while playing a match. All my teammates were gone, so I drank from the water bottle that was next to me. It was very good. I thank the owner of the bottle.
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