• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:26
CEST 16:26
KST 23:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting2[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent6Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO35.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)66Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition315.0.15 Balance Patch Notes (Live version)119
StarCraft 2
General
IP For new Brazil servers for NA Players Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO 5.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8) TL.net Map Contest #21 - Finalists PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More
Brood War
General
[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent I'm making videos again Any rep analyzer that shows resources situation? Whose hotkey signature is this? BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal A [ASL20] Semifinal B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Siegecraft - a new perspective TvZ Theorycraft - Improving on State of the Art
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread ZeroSpace Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640} TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI Stop the Construction YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Inbreeding: Why Do We Do It…
Peanutsc
From Tilt to Ragequit:The Ps…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2709 users

MLG Summer Arena Structure Change

Blogs > mockturtle
Post a Reply
mockturtle
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States220 Posts
July 19 2012 01:46 GMT
#1
MLG announced a while ago that they would be implementing a new structure for their Summer Arena. Here's the reddit thread. The tournament starts this weekend.

Thus far, MLG has done three arenas. Winter Arena and Spring Arena 2 were nearly identical. Both used 32 players, both used the same, standard double elimination bracket (well, almost standard -- it wouldn't be an MLG without extended series). The only difference was how the first round pairings were set: Winter Arena went directly by seeding while Spring Arena 2 let the top half seeds draft their opponents from the bottom half. Spring Arena 1 used a much different format and only had eight players, however it seems that MLG will not continue hosting this sort of event.

Summer Arena adds another subtle change. Rather than using a standard double elimination bracket, the players will first be separated into two groups. From there, double elimination play will yield two finalists. Those two players will face off in a single championship match.

While far from ideal, I think this is a wonderful change for MLG. A key problem with using double elimination brackets is the monumental advantage held by players who have not yet lost. As the tournament should be growing more exciting near the conclusion of the event, matches taking place in the losers bracket are between players highly unlikely to ultimately win the tournament. The finals, which should be the climax, often seems predetermined since not only does one player have a large handicap, oftentimes the match is a repeat of a pairing from one or two rounds prior.

In other words, tournament does not end with a "bang". It fizzles. The winners bracket finals and semifinals are often the most significant matches. While using double elimination affords the losers of these bouts a second chance they wouldn't get in a typical knockout tournament, the losers bracket tends to play out as though they were glorified consolation matches.

Winning from the losers bracket, of course, is not impossible. But "not impossible" doesn't make an event exciting to watch. The fact is, the winners bracket player will win an awful lot, and enough tournaments have happened on the Starcraft 2 circuit for this to become apparent. For me, it actually feels worse when the handicapped player is able to put up a strong fight, but still loses (see Squirtle vs. aLive at IPL4) -- it breaks my heart to know that they could have won if the match started out on even footing.

Considering this, MLG's structure change is a good move. While last few matches before the championship will suffer the same fate as before, the integrity of the finals is preserved since two players (who will have yet to play each other) will meet on an even playing field. No advantages, no obvious result. This should make watching the finals much more entertaining.

*****
Bibbit
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada5377 Posts
July 19 2012 02:06 GMT
#2
Yeah I agree with you. I really like this change. I kinda remember reading in the announcement thread that some people were against it but I can't remember for what reasons. Can someone fill me in on the downsides? =)
mockturtle
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States220 Posts
July 20 2012 21:54 GMT
#3
On July 19 2012 11:06 Bibbit wrote:
Yeah I agree with you. I really like this change. I kinda remember reading in the announcement thread that some people were against it but I can't remember for what reasons. Can someone fill me in on the downsides? =)


I think the reasons were that they are haters and haters love to hate.

But in response to your question...I don't really want to call it a "downside" but a consequence of the two groups is that the players from each won't intermingle. This means that luck of the draw making one group stronger than the other can distort some of the rankings from their theoretical "true" rankings. e.g., if the absolute 1st and 2nd best player overall wind up in one group, 2nd best player must finish in 3rd/4th and won't be able to challenge for 2nd -- or if the #1 and #2 players were split, but #3, #4, #5, #6 were all together with #1, then they will finish #3-3rd/4th (still accurate), #4-5th/6th (slightly off), #5-7th/8th (little more off), #6-9th/10th/11th/12th (more off).

Of course, Starcraft win rates among similarly skilled players can vary wildly so bracket stacking in a small, relatively even field is not a huge deal. It probably only has a significant effect on deciding which of the weaker ~65% of the players are able to make it into the top 16 for the Raleigh pool play.

Different tournament formats and structures show some of their benefits in clarity/accuracy in different rank ranges. A standard double elimination doesn't really do a much better job at finding a #1 compared to single elimination, and not even much better at finding a #2 either (*especially* if you have some decent seeding). It's real strength is accuracy in the rungs below #1/#2 to the top 20% of the field, especially when seeding is poor or unavailable. This is part of why I actually loathe double elimination (when played to the winner -- gsl groups/dual tournament style, for example, is a-ok by me) -- figuring out who is better between 7th and 8th place does not interest me (or anyone else since consolation matches are almost never watched, even if it's 3rd/4th), so I don't want a tournament to be twice as long just to have the right person get 5th place. MLG's new format trades away a tiny bit of that strength of double elimination but gives a more accurate #1 out of the two finalists.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Wardi Open
11:00
WardiTV Mondays #55
Clem vs MaxPaxLIVE!
WardiTV1216
OGKoka 467
SteadfastSC193
Rex162
CranKy Ducklings96
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
OGKoka 467
Harstem 258
SteadfastSC 193
Rex 162
Fuzer 133
ProTech77
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 40135
Calm 9055
Sea 6635
Hyuk 3238
Rain 2971
Flash 2814
Horang2 1715
PianO 1482
GuemChi 1379
Shuttle 922
[ Show more ]
firebathero 708
Mini 513
EffOrt 456
Light 390
Hyun 349
Larva 216
Soulkey 128
Pusan 108
Mind 90
Backho 88
JYJ67
Mong 57
Sea.KH 53
Rush 53
soO 51
sas.Sziky 38
Aegong 36
ToSsGirL 31
Sacsri 26
ivOry 25
Movie 21
Shine 14
Rock 13
Terrorterran 12
scan(afreeca) 12
HiyA 11
SilentControl 11
Noble 6
Hm[arnc] 6
Dota 2
Gorgc5638
qojqva3447
420jenkins428
syndereN341
XcaliburYe236
League of Legends
KnowMe11
Counter-Strike
markeloff119
edward40
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor197
Other Games
singsing2797
hiko820
B2W.Neo447
crisheroes399
Lowko321
byalli214
Hui .171
oskar80
ArmadaUGS43
rGuardiaN24
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 9
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 13
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3066
League of Legends
• Nemesis2893
• Jankos2158
Other Games
• Shiphtur5
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
1h 34m
Replay Cast
9h 34m
Afreeca Starleague
19h 34m
Soma vs Bisu
OSC
23h 34m
OSC
1d 3h
MaxPax vs Gerald
Solar vs Krystianer
PAPI vs Lemon
Ryung vs Moja
Nice vs NightPhoenix
Cham vs TBD
MaNa vs TriGGeR
PiGosaur Monday
1d 9h
The PondCast
2 days
OSC
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
[ Show More ]
Safe House 2
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Safe House 2
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.