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On July 07 2012 08:58 EnE wrote:
Not really. I disagree with most of your post. The fact of cheese is that it's just a metagame phenomenom. Born and bred of the Metagame.
I.E: If everyone cheesed, all zergs would open 11pool and nobody would cheese. But then all the the other players would all open macro... then giving the zerg opportunities to cheese and so on and so on.
It's misleading to talk about "skill" in the way you do, when the fact is, Cheese exists as a very aggressive metagame to punish metagame that isnt defensive enough to hold it.
Basically, if cheese was really too good then literally everyone would open 11/11 as a standard style and it would still come back down to skill.
Want to use the word metagame anymore in a 5 line post? I disagree that its a metagame phenomenom but think its quite the opositite, an inevitable by-product of any sport or game.
Cheese exists and affects the metagame only when it is the predominant strategy. Such as when Terrans feel like the only way to win against Zerg is to 11/11 or 12/14 proxy rax. The latter of the two actually not falling under the cheese category since it is a economical opening and can easily be transitioned out of if scouted or if the aggression doesn't do the necessary damage.
12/14 proxy rax can be defined as cheese and one in direct response to the metagame. however it can also be considered a standard pressure build with an easy transition in to normal play. It all depends on execution and commitment to the aggression. Without fully committing to the kill you can force zerg in to building a ton of lings and spines then simply backoff once your CC is goin up, putting yourself at a lead economically. If every player then started doing this build, it would then become part of the metagame, to be expected and planned for and would then fall out of use and out of the metagame.
You will have noticed that cheese effects the metagame but the metagame does the reverse a lot less. In very rare situations the metagame finds itself at a point where one race feels like cheesing is the best option. At this point, hence force I shall call the MvP line, players feel cheesing makes more sense to win. Until the MvP line is reached, cheese is simply going for a quick win and you have a plethora to choose from, many of which use do not rely on any current metagame trends.
The 4 gate has fallen out of vogue and is rarely used above plat these days, however it still has a place in all match-ups for simply that reason... no one expects it anymore, everyone knows how to defend it and if scouted well it is an instaloss. Which is why it becomes powerful again. No one expects it, so set up their defence to deal with whatever is in vogue and then bam a 4 gate rolls in and kills you. It won't work more than once in a series, because next time they will be watching for it. It will not however enter in to decisions in any other way, it is outdated and figured out and the only concern is not to get caught off guard a second time.
The only time the metagame effects cheese is when the MvP line is crossed. At this point cheesing becomes the standard and thus enters the metagame. This phase of the metagame is usually short and nasty, results in bitching whinging and a tyrade of "fix this now" attitudes until someone figures out something new to deal with it. The metagame shifts again and we go back to square one.
There we go, I used the word metagame more than you......
Now on to cheese itself. To my mind cheese is anything to which can not be transitioned out of to normal play and that if scouted is easily stopped. If a build can be scouted and prepared for but still not be stopped then it no longer falls in to cheese but in to strong play. Either way, cheesing is a play to win attitude. Why play a 20 minute game that could go either way when you can win in 5 for sure?
When MvP cheeses, and thus why I used his name in the MvP line is because, he uses his incredible skill to make simple cheeses work and win more often than they rightly should. By identifying the right times to cheese and then executing them extremely well he beats his opponents with skill and cunning. As a player not usually associated with it, when it came down to winning a championship he was only too willing to forgo his usual style in favour of win by any means strategies. I don't see why this should ever be deemed wrong, unethical or any other negative connotation you feel like throwing at the word cheese.
You see it in other sports, basketball, football, soccer etc. Deliberately running time down in a close game to ensure the win. That folks is cheesing. Finding yourself a 7'9" center who can't shoot or dribble the ball but can dunk without jumping, giving you easy points, is cheesing.
td;dr
A win is a win, in the history books and stats it doesn't have an * next to the win saying you cheesed... just that you won. When you play to win, there are no ethics. there are no degrees of winning, only winning itself. Learn to deal with it.
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On July 08 2012 11:22 emythrel wrote:
td;dr
A win is a win, in the history books and stats it doesn't have an * next to the win saying you cheesed... just that you won. When you play to win, there are no ethics. there are no degrees of winning, only winning itself. Learn to deal with it.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 07 2012 09:06 Hnnngg wrote:
It's like picking Antimage in a pub.
Don't be an AM picker.
Nah, it's more like picking Lycan. You only need to jungle properly (way easier than laning imo) and right click towers to be half decent 
OT: Ofcourse, cheeses should be in the game, as it somewhat deters people of going extreamly greedy build everygame.
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5/5 love this stuff, also love to see good players hold off or execute good cheeses. They are really exciting in that the outcome is reaaaaaally unpredictable with the spectrum of skills so narrowed down 
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I will never forget when MVP cheesed Squirtle last game of GSL code S, that was so painful to watch after Squirtle made such a comeback, i still have nightmares of that game, so horrible it was.
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The Gray Areas Of Cheese
Or, when classical definitions fail to describe what cheese really is
You really hit the nail on the head when you say The label of "cheese" should be used less often, and should specifically describe strategies allows[sic] less-skilled players to beat skillful one[sic].
Glamor cheese is the hidden 5rax posing as a 1rax expand, with nearly indistinguishable differences. Talk about that zerg that builds his first meaty army 8 minutes into the game, and you might hear the weak cry of "Eco Cheese" somewhere out in the fog. Tell the Terran that just dropped 2 ebays, an armory, and is constructing 3 more barracks and 1 more techlab and ... well, "Powering Cheese?" ... "Anybody? Umm..."
But no, glamor cheese wins out. It looks ugly. You're left with that sickening impression that the skillful player lost. But when Artosis says, "Dayum Player X let Zerg Y drone to Z!!! That sick economic advantage puts Zerg Y into a HUUUGE Lead" and the high-profile match between a sub-par eco-cheese player and a more well-rounded Player X descends into a horde of units against very few rapidly. But wait ... cheese just lost all of its pejorative nature here, because this is very close to proper gameplay in some situations. Unscouted/Unreacted Eco-Cheese leading to loss, Unscouted/Unreacted Classical Cheese leading to loss. More fun to watch, yes (as OP correctly points out)? Fundamentally, is this any less cheese, or is cheese just in the eye of the beholder?
A) Man, if I had just pressured at this time. He was being economically greedy and I could've reaped many worker kills in this time.
B) Dude, the guy was powering, he had like 1k invested in structures that don't give upgrades yet or more army & tech for another 2 minutes. I could've walked into his base saying, "Nice base, I'll take it!"
C) Man if I had only overlord scouted this area, I would've spotted the hidden building. He was all-inning me and I had no idea!
I say if any one of those strategic mistakes is removed from the game, we lose something. You paint cheese with a sweeping brush that encapsulates some very poor players reaping wins, but lumps in some very skilled players catching their opponents off guard. I agree with the conclusion: We're not cheapening anything for sponsor gains or viewership "cool factor" gains, ever. Let blizzard balance relative scouting strengths around how powerful something unscouted becomes. I say continue with some facepalm wins for the times your MVP executes ridiculous cheese flawlessly in Game 2 of a series he leads.
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On July 09 2012 20:22 AngelOvUriel wrote:
I will never forget when MVP cheesed Squirtle last game of GSL code S, that was so painful to watch after Squirtle made such a comeback, i still have nightmares of that game, so horrible it was.
Or when Leenock beat Naniwa by hatch-cancel roaching every game, that was so cheesy.
Wait Nani FFEs every game and Leenock punished this hard.
There is a game of DRG vs Nani from one of the MLG championships where DRG eco six pools to prevent Nani from FFE, causes enough damage to be on an equal standing with him and disrupts his game plan. Nani proceeds to 4 gate which DRG expects and counters perfectly to win the game. It was extremely intelligent play and showed how to use aggressive openers to gain the upper hand early in a game.
Going 6 pool with double extractor trick and droning heavily behind it is a pretty powerful opener in the current PvZ matchup with most games being 3 hatch vs FFE games. It allows you to exploit the greediness of the Toss who expects the standard double hatch. You have an extremely high chance of causing enough damage to the opponent to put them behind - sometimes even winning the game right there against poor players who can't react well to a 6 pool - and allows you to have greater control of the gameflow so early in the match.
The most important part about the 6 pool and other builds like it is that a lot of people get flustered when they are 'cheesed' and this can cause them to make more mistakes and give you even more of an advantage. The same goes for other early aggression plays like doing a bunker rush to put the zerg under enough pressure to overreact or potentially lose his first hatch. If you know how to transition out of it properly and have the ability to cause the damage needed to make up for the economy lost then it can be an extremely effective playstyle.
Pure cheese (Blindly all-inning) on ladder is pretty lame but it has its place in pro matches. Some people may hate to watch it but Aggressive openers and all-ins are important builds to know due to the mental effects it has on players, especially those who play very greedy and are known to dislike that style of play. If you look at the big 3 in Korea (Nestea, MVP and MC) they all know how and when to throw in early aggressions and all ins and as a result they have more than 60% of seasons won between them.
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Thanks for all the thoughts, guys. Just a quick note, I tried to keep the discussion extremely general so it could apply to all games. Also, it seems like the word 'metagame' also frustrates a lot of people, so I think I'll try to tackle that one next. It seems like most people don't like the word and question whether it is a meaningful concept. I think it definitely is, and I'll try to explain why on Friday. Let me know if there are any specific issues, other than overuse or misapplication, that you think are interesting. Again, I'll be keeping the discussion very generic, and in fact will probably be talking a lot about MtG, since that is a game were the metagame is extremely important.
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EPT
