• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:01
CEST 17:01
KST 00:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun11[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists22[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid25
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid Maestros of the Game 2 announced
Tourneys
GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) SC2 INu's Battles#15 <BO.9 2Matches> WardiTV Spring Cup RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event SEL Masters #6 - Solar vs Classic (SC: Evo)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss
Brood War
General
Data needed Pros React To: Leta vs Tulbo (ASL S21, Ro.8) ASL21 General Discussion [TOOL] Starcraft Chat Translator JaeDong's ASL S21 Ro16 Post-Review
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro8 Day 2 [ASL21] Ro8 Day 1
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Daigo vs Menard Best of 10 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Diablo IV
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread 3D technology/software discussion Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2430 users

[Ramblings] Gaps in Thinking; Nomenclature

Blogs > Angel_
Post a Reply
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
May 31 2012 19:43 GMT
#1
I guess I want to talk about two different things and the connection between them; or rather, a thing, and it's root cause.

At every level there are lapses in our logic; gaps in our trains of thinking. Pro players fail to identify out-of-the-box and non-standard play because they're so used to 'efficient' play. Casters judge player's actions because of their own lapse in realization that what they see isn't what the player has seen. And as spectator's we try to mimic our pro's without realizing why it works, or how it works, or what it's trying to accomplish, without the necessary information or backing to do it safely to begin with (at all levels). Simply, it's a failure in perspective, and it isn't unique to Starcraft in any way shape or form. However, I want to use it to analyze a specific concept: all-in.

First and foremost I guess the word must be defined. I'll use my own thinking. To be all-in is a situation in which you must, at least, have an end result of your opponent being at your level after you execute it, with the risk of being critically behind if failed. Less technical: An all-in is a place you put yourself in that requires you to put your opponent at your level when you do it, or you'll probably die.

There is a lot of difficulty in understanding the all-in because of it's misuse and misunderstanding. To do an all-in, for example, requires you to be all-in. But you can be all-in without doing an all in, and that's the critical piece a lot of confusion comes from. You will hear a lot of caster's say things like, "Oh he hasn't expanded yet he's obviously doing a 2-base all-in". At the pro level that's probably true because standard 2-base play has sort of died to the longer macro game, and at the top level if someone is doing two-base play, the most efficient effective way of doing it is probably to do a very specific all-in, that MIGHT have some hope of transition out of it.

Which brings up two more issues: 1. The lapse, and 2. If it can be transitioned out of, how is it an all-in?

So we'll address 1 first. The lapse involves a failure to bridge to your own level. I hear, "Oh he isn't taken his third by 15 minutes he's obviously doing an all-in" and I process that as, "Okay if I'm against an opponent and he hasn't expanded by 15 minutes he's doing something wonky." In some circumstances that's definitely true. In others however, your opponent is just committing himself to a strong two base game with a lot of focus on army and is probably going to try to kill you frequently, or mass a two base army and kill you. Then you have to take that leap and say, "well if he's committing to that, he IS all-in", which is true, but it doesn't mean he's doing an all-in, and that's really important to recognize.

2. If we look back at the definition of an all-in, it doesn't actually require the all-inner to win. If you do say...a 1-1-1 all-in against a protoss. You don't have to kill the protoss with your attack. It'd be awesome to. It'd be great to at least totally cripple the shit out of them. But what is actually required is that you either force them into making units while being cost efficient enough with your own that you can tech/expand/whatever really fast and catch up to them, OR you have to bring them down to your level in army/tech/economy. It's part of what makes an all-in really complicated to judge the success of; generally we judge an all-in based on whether or not we clearly win the game with it.

A two-rax all-in is what I'll use as an example (despite the actual definition of "what is a two-rax" being much more difficult, so for clarity, not a two rax pressure with a few marines, but a two-rax, 3 maurader and some marines, thing). If we start off with a two rax...we have no real tech started and are on one base. Let's say it's against another terran. Chances are they're making units anyway unless they're going for some fast mech build or a fast tech (banshee something) thing. So we take in our units and we kill a bunch of scvs and snipe his natural, giving us time to get our expansion half-up. Now, we've killed a couple scvs, and it was early enough that he probably didn't have a very big scv lead anyway, and our natural is almost done and he has to restart his. We are ahead in economy. We may or may not be ahead in gas. Depending on whether or not he has his factory at home and what he was doing he might still be ahead in tech. Our all-in then, probably paid off and put us at least even again. Let's say instead he kept his orbital and had to lift it, but we ran up his ramp, made him pull scvs, and we sniped his factory. We're probably going to be about even in economy, with him probably getting an extra MULE off but having 1-3 less scvs. But! We're definitely even on tech. And you have the advantage of knowing what he was hoping to go for (and possibly the advantage of having forced him into going for something else now that he wasn't planning to do). Our all-in was successful enough that we could transition from it into what we wanted without being behind or effectively dead. And that's not limited to super-early game situations; the same scenario could be created with a blink-all-in, but I'm not going to do it for the sake of over-explaining.

So in short, an all-in puts you all-in, but being all-in does not necessary mean you're doing an all-in, or that what you're seeing is someone doing an all-in.

All just, food for thought, and something to remember in your own games and scouting and thinking, and to notice and note when you're watching high level games and casts.

End.

***
Demonhunter04
Profile Joined July 2011
1530 Posts
May 31 2012 20:13 GMT
#2
Assuming that others see or know the same things you do is a fundamental flaw in human reasoning. Children do this most often, but even adults make that mistake. This is also the basis for empathy - we understand and feel another person's emotions by imagining our own reactions to being put in the same situation.
"If you don't drop sweat today, you will drop tears tomorrow" - SlayerSMMA
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
June 01 2012 02:20 GMT
#3
I've had arguments with people before about this.

I'll say, that was an all-in. And they'll say, not it wasn't, if they killed all their scvs with it they could transition. >.> But that definition could be applied to any build and the phrase 'all-in' loses it's meaning.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Facultyadjutant
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Sweden1876 Posts
June 01 2012 15:35 GMT
#4
All-in for me is when you commit every tech, army and econ for a single push

3 rax = allin

1/1/1 - not allin

This is my opinion as summarized as I could
#1 FAN OF TERRY THE INTERN - NONY AND IDRA NUMBER #1, EVERY DAY. AXIOM MANOR - Axiom: Ryung, Alicia, Heart and Crank under the Don TotalBiscuit and the Donnesa Genna Bain- Join the family http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396090#2
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
13:00
King of the Hill #246
WardiTV630
TKL 285
Liquipedia
INu's Battles
11:00
INu's Battles#15
SHIN vs ByuNLIVE!
IntoTheiNu 1024
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Serral 1485
TKL 243
Hui .191
trigger 71
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 37740
Calm 5428
Sea 2376
Mini 665
Shuttle 480
firebathero 459
EffOrt 418
Hyuk 416
Light 384
BeSt 357
[ Show more ]
ggaemo 228
Leta 184
actioN 151
Hyun 119
Dewaltoss 114
hero 101
Killer 81
ToSsGirL 75
Sharp 70
Hm[arnc] 66
Pusan 66
[sc1f]eonzerg 55
Sea.KH 42
Free 39
yabsab 25
Barracks 20
scan(afreeca) 19
GoRush 17
Rock 17
zelot 16
910 15
Shine 13
IntoTheRainbow 12
Terrorterran 10
SilentControl 10
Sacsri 9
JulyZerg 6
Dota 2
Gorgc4872
qojqva1709
monkeys_forever281
syndereN211
Other Games
singsing2316
B2W.Neo1082
hiko834
DeMusliM404
crisheroes294
ArmadaUGS66
Rex38
QueenE37
Trikslyr12
Grubby0
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream73
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 11
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 9
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• escodisco3797
• Michael_bg 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis4295
• TFBlade1522
Other Games
• WagamamaTV235
Upcoming Events
Big Brain Bouts
59m
Replay Cast
8h 59m
Replay Cast
17h 59m
RSL Revival
18h 59m
Classic vs GgMaChine
Rogue vs Maru
WardiTV Invitational
19h 59m
IPSL
1d
Ret vs Art_Of_Turtle
Radley vs TBD
BSL
1d 3h
Replay Cast
1d 8h
RSL Revival
1d 18h
herO vs TriGGeR
NightMare vs Solar
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 22h
[ Show More ]
BSL
2 days
IPSL
2 days
eOnzErG vs TBD
G5 vs Nesh
Patches Events
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Jaedong vs Light
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs Flash
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
GSL
4 days
Classic vs Cure
Maru vs Rogue
GSL
5 days
SHIN vs Zoun
ByuN vs herO
Replay Cast
6 days
Escore
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-04-30
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Escore Tournament S2: W5
KK 2v2 League Season 1
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
2026 GSL S1
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.