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All ins are cheese, imo there is no reason to cheese on ladder until you are high masters. Until then your mechanics can be improved upon once your mechanics are rock solid then you can try to be fancy with all ins and stuff.
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You're not using an all in to "punish" anything if you just blindly decide to go for it the moment the game starts. That's the difference with the pros. Well, some pros. Your example may be extreme, but I never just leave against one either, kind of beats the point of practice. If that means I'm a raging 12 year old, fine, but I'm not the one who feels the need to make a forum post about it 
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if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact.
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On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact.
not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win.
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On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win.
Not exactly. If they don't scout it on time and don't react properly, they're not playing smart or well in the first place.
I'm pretty sure I can do those builds with 100% win ratio in lower leagues and progamers can probably do to ladder players with a decent win ratio too, it has nothing to do with being lucky.
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On May 30 2012 14:09 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win. Not exactly. If they don't scout it on time and don't react properly, they're not playing smart or well in the first place. I'm pretty sure I can do those builds with 100% win ratio in lower leagues and progamers can probably do to ladder players with a decent win ratio too, it has nothing to do with being lucky.
Yes I agree but doing this doesnt make you the better player...
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All-in IS cheese. What the hell do you think cheese is? that being said, cheese is not a bad thing, infact cheese is really good to do as much as possible.
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TLADT24920 Posts
An interesting point. To me, it doesn't make if an all in is considered cheese or not because it's part of the game so the classification doesn't make a difference. Having said that, I dunno what classification it falls under though.
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On May 30 2012 14:11 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:09 K3Nyy wrote:On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win. Not exactly. If they don't scout it on time and don't react properly, they're not playing smart or well in the first place. I'm pretty sure I can do those builds with 100% win ratio in lower leagues and progamers can probably do to ladder players with a decent win ratio too, it has nothing to do with being lucky. Yes I agree but doing this doesnt make you the better player...
But it makes you the better player in that specific game.
2gate, early pools, and other blind allins are stoppable if the player reacts correctly, and if he doesn't scout or react, he got outplayed and was the lesser player in that game.
The only allin I think is an exception for that is 2rax in TvZ, where the Zerg can scout it and still lose, but I guess that's debatable.
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On May 30 2012 14:11 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:09 K3Nyy wrote:On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win. Not exactly. If they don't scout it on time and don't react properly, they're not playing smart or well in the first place. I'm pretty sure I can do those builds with 100% win ratio in lower leagues and progamers can probably do to ladder players with a decent win ratio too, it has nothing to do with being lucky. Yes I agree but doing this doesnt make you the better player...
But it makes you the aggressor, which puts the responsibility/necessity to scout on him and if he doesn't do it then you have played the better game..
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Define allin...
Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin?? 
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On May 30 2012 14:43 _mmK wrote:Define allin... Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin??
Of course it isnt.. People severely over use the term all-in.. In practice all-ins are pretty rare, anything that you can continue playing from if you don't win the game right there shouldn't be considered all in.. How is it all-in if you are already preparing for the rest of the game after the attack?
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On May 30 2012 14:52 IceSlipper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:43 _mmK wrote:Define allin... Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin?? Of course it isnt.. People severely over use the term all-in.. In practice all-ins are pretty rare, anything that you can continue playing from if you don't win the game right there shouldn't be considered all in.. How is it all-in if you are already preparing for the rest of the game after the attack?
Most of the time they don't plan to go to a later stage of the game. If i 2 port banshee and he scouts chances are I am not going to leave, I just say fuck it and try to macro. Unless he fucks up royally or I am going to lose
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On May 30 2012 15:02 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:52 IceSlipper wrote:On May 30 2012 14:43 _mmK wrote:Define allin... Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin?? Of course it isnt.. People severely over use the term all-in.. In practice all-ins are pretty rare, anything that you can continue playing from if you don't win the game right there shouldn't be considered all in.. How is it all-in if you are already preparing for the rest of the game after the attack? Most of the time they don't plan to go to a later stage of the game. If i 2 port banshee and he scouts chances are I am not going to leave, I just say fuck it and try to macro. Unless he fucks up royally or I am going to lose
Then it's not all in is it? It's just a planned attack that didn't go so well..
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On May 30 2012 15:02 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:52 IceSlipper wrote:On May 30 2012 14:43 _mmK wrote:Define allin... Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin?? Of course it isnt.. People severely over use the term all-in.. In practice all-ins are pretty rare, anything that you can continue playing from if you don't win the game right there shouldn't be considered all in.. How is it all-in if you are already preparing for the rest of the game after the attack? Most of the time they don't plan to go to a later stage of the game. If i 2 port banshee and he scouts chances are I am not going to leave, I just say fuck it and try to macro. Unless he fucks up royally or I am going to lose
True, but better players usally have a follow-up so :/ Allins is a part of the game and I woulden't want it removed and if all games would only be macro games it would look waaay to alike a 10min no rush game, those are not fun to watch!
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On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win.
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact.
i can just repeat the same thing because it is perfectly fits here.
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 all-incheese
They are not always the same.
If you blind proxy 2gate on a 4-player map against an opponent of fairly equal skill and win, well then you're just playing like an idiot and didn't deserve that win.
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On May 30 2012 15:42 Vandroy wrote:all-incheeseThey are not always the same. If you blind proxy 2gate on a 4-player map against an opponent of fairly equal skill and win, well then you're just playing like an idiot and didn't deserve that win.
everyone deserves their wins because they played better, doesnt matter what kind a build order they executed.
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On May 30 2012 15:42 Vandroy wrote:
If you blind proxy 2gate on a 4-player map against an opponent of fairly equal skill and win, well then you're just playing like an idiot and didn't deserve that win.
In that situation, the other person played equally (more) bad, by not scouting and reacting well enough. So yes, you still deserve that win more than the opponent.
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EPT
