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Active: 34387 users

SCBW vs SC2 - info for SCBW noobs!

Blogs > Duckvillelol
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Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1240 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-20 12:42:41
May 20 2012 02:25 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Massive thanks to me, DUCKVILLE for having amazing MSPaint skills

G’day folks, it’s your local Duck and LastLie here.

No doubt there are a lot of excited people ready and prepared to watching the new season of Proleague, featuring both Starcraft Brood War and now including Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty. I realised today however that there are probably quite a lot of people who may watch today who have never played Brood War. As such, there will be quite a lot of you who may ask questions relating to SCBW today while watching - particularly relating to the units used during BW, and even some of the mechanics and playstyles.

Luckily for you, we are going to give you a quick rundown of the basic units that don’t appear in SC2, some of the play-styles you can expect to see, and some thoughts on how some of these many team battles will go.

There is another thread that was put together by Pokebunny that elaborated on how Proleague will work, details about English streams and even some details about current SCBW strategy - please feel free to have a look over there - but this guide will be more direct in terms of describing some of the SCBW units and what they do, and more detail about strategy we’ll most likely be seeing. You can see the thread from Pokebunny here - please be sure to tune into the stream if you want to hear some English commentary!

Let’s dive straight into it - starting with some mechanical differences between SC2 and SCBW - the very small but crucial things that can really change the way the game is played.




Automining

[image loading]
No e z mode mining here!


Automining is one of the big “casual factors” that was introduced in SC2. Put simply; the ability to rally your town hall (oldschool terminology - Command Center, Nexus, Hatchery) to a mineral patch, and have your workers automatically start mining once they are produced. This is not possible in BW, and if you try - your units will simply “move” to the mineral patch, and not do anything at all apart from make you waste time.

In BW, players must manually right-click workers onto mineral patches to make them start mining. You think that splitting your workers or making a mining-pair is annoying in SC2? Try having to remember to make them actually do their job in the first place, for each worker.

Multiple building selection

[image loading]
Makes it slightly hardy to build your units...


Multiple building selection is much like automining as per above - something that makes macro a much easier task by being able to select all of your Barracks/hatcheries/Robo’s... etc etc. In Brood War this is not possible, you need to manually select each building and begin creation of a unit.

Smart casting
Basically talking about the ability to “queue” up your casting unit skills, or placing them “consecutively” (Duck: I’m not exactly sure how to explain smart casting). To put it bluntly, doing this particular thing in SC:BW is a LOT harder than it looks, and we see this type of thing much more in SC2 because of Smart casting. Often when someone talks about the spell casting units of BW, they’ll mention the term “cloning.” For specifics on it, check out the Liquipedia article on it, but what you need to know is that Cloning is a method of taking a group of units and getting them to do one action to multiple targets very quickly. Sending workers to minerals at a new expansion or covering an army in Psionic Storms are just two examples of when Cloning is necessary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3IbwjeCx6U


Unlimited group selection

[image loading]
Unlimited...


In BW, it was a tough time, especially for Zerg, and late game Protoss/Terran - you could only select 12 units at a time. You may be aware that BW progamers have extremely high APM even when compared with the best of SC2 - this had some part to it. Needing to select group after group... setting multiple control groups... moving them all around...

Pathfinding change

There isn’t really too much to this one - but you’ll notice when watching BW that the units move differently - they won’t “clump up” as you will normally see in SC2. This is both a blessing and a curse - it’s great sometimes when your units don’t catch a full EMP as a Protoss - but as a Terran in some instances clumping can be very useful, which leads to...

Proper magic boxing

Magic boxing in SC2 is not at all magic boxing like BW knows it. It’s kind of hard to describe it in a short manner, so I’ll direct you to this Liquipedia page to get a better understanding.

Mutalisk stacking

One large outcry during the beta of SC2 was relating to Mutalisk stacking. To some extent you can still do it in SC2, however it isn’t really as powerful as it was in BW. Back in the day, you can hide a huge clump of Mutalisks in what looked like 1 - 3 of them together. It looks a little like this:

[image loading]
Stack ‘em up!


Building rally

Rally points were slightly different, as when you create a Gateway, Barracks and so forth - the units will default to “exiting” the building from the bottom left corner. They will not exit from the point in which you have rallied them. This is why when you are watching BW you will sometimes see weird looking building formations. Adding to this because you cannot Multiple building select - each building must have its rally point set individually. Somewhat like this, you might want to practice it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e18ancDxBUE





That will do it for basic mechanical things - there are more, but they get more technical and I’m sure I’ve missed some so please feel free to post, if I notice them I’ll add them in Now lets have a quick chat about unit differences! These will be short descriptions of changes, with pros/cons added in for your viewing benefit. Please click on the unit for a better description of it’s details and abilities, straight from the venerable TeamLiquid Liquipedia!

Protoss

Dragoon
Ranged attacking unit - think of it as the Stalker of BW. This guy gets an upgrade from the Cybernetics Core to increase its range which is basically a standard upgrade to get asap - they are useful in both offence and defence.
Pro: Long range, used in all matchups, a “solid” unit.
Con: Can be extremely clunky to manoeuvre around the map and can get caught and glitch out sometimes - can be smashed down by siege tanks without mercy.

Reaver
Long range siege unit - think of it like a slow Colossus - but add in about 5000 times the excitement factor. These little guys were my favourite unit and were unfortunately removed for SC2 because they “didn’t fill a unique role”. What a joke They are amazing fun to watch, as I’m sure these commentators can show for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cB-6MrsDsQ


Pro: Amazing damage... if it hits. Can be amazingly effective in an ambush, when transported by a shuttle.
Con: Amazing damage... if it hits. Extremely slow.

Dark Archon
Protoss Spellcaster with no attack - these guys are rarely used, we may see one or two during the season - but even then they sometimes don’t even get used at all. They have feedback (same as SC2), maelstrom (think fungal growth, but only on bio units, and no damage) and mind control (permanent mind control, not like Neural parasite).
Pro: Hilarious to see a maelstrom + psi storm combo on a flock of mutas
Con: Slow and a bit clunky, rarely seen.

Shuttle

[image loading]


Protoss transport unit. Essentially Warp Prism 1.0, unfortunately the technology wasn’t there yet to warp in units.

Pro: Very fast with the upgrade
Cons: Takes a certain kind of micro to utilise fully (see unit link)

Scout
Protoss … I dunno. Anti air? I guess something like that - they cost way too much, are extremely slow (without the upgrade which also costs too much) but do very nice damage in anti-air - though aren’t as effective as Corsairs.

Pro: Are great for humiliating/BM’ing an opponent when you are way in front.
Con: Generally quite bad for cost and efficiency.

Arbiter

[image loading]


The missing link between Motherships and a Scout. These guys are a solid unit that you can see in PvT quite often - they provide Recall (slightly different to SC2 however) and Stasis (like vortex, however the units won’t disappear) - along with the powerful cloaking field for nearby units.

Pro: Cloak and stasis are amazing, along with recalls ability to break into the back of a players base.
Con: Rarely seen in PvZ/PvP

Corsair
Protoss Anti-air (better than a Scout). These guys are fantastic for dealing with mutas, as they have a splash attack which does huge damage to the muta clump Zergs often use. They also have Disruption web which is a skill that blocks all units/buildings underneath the web from attacking at all, though it is rarely seen.

Pro: Amazing muta defence, and great for setting up the “Bisu Build”
Con: Can be easy to kill in lower numbers, also have no ground attack at all

Terran

Firebat
Solid ground units for usage in TvZ - these guys love to fire it up by stimming up and burning down Zerglings. Essentially a hellion driver when he gets out of the car.

Pro: Powerful anti-light
Con: In small numbers and without marine/medic support these guys can be very short lived.

Medic

[image loading]


A ground version of Medivacs - providing healing to the army and service with a smile. Have access to Blind (blinds units...) and Restoration (removes debuffs), although these upgrades are rarely seen.

Pro: Gives you medical attention, and can help out with some debuffs
Con: Have no attack, and can be both good/bad when they block your units...

Vulture
A staple unit of TvP and TvZ mech-style - these guys provide small-fire against light units on the battlefield, along with “tanking” for siege tanks, and their most useful utility - spider mines which do large AOE damage (to friend and foe alike).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=68mD6zMNaMg#t=117s


Pro: Powerful anti-light units, providing Terrans with the impressive spider mines for defense and providing protection against drops. Extremely fast and can be “patrol micro’d” to shoot while moving.
Con: Once the spider mines are gone, they are only there to shoot stuff (with little damage) and be a meat-shield.

Goliath
Mech-warriors of BW - these guys have ridiculous range with their anti-air and have mediocre anti-ground, but provide a steady backup to tanks in mech TvP and can also be used in TvZ to some extent.

Pro: Incredible anti-air capabilities, great in conjunction with tanks in TvP
Con: Vulnerable to other race ranged units, not to mention the heavy powered units that can also appear on the battlefield.

Wraith
The equivalent of the Viking - these guys have mediocre ground damage, beef up their anti-air a tiny bit - and are mostly used for their speed and cloak ability. Commonly seen in TvT during tech switches.

Pro: Very fast, useful cloak ability too
Con: Anti-ground is quite low damage, once detection is nearby they can be killed quite easily.

Science Vessel

[image loading]


The Raven of BW - a caster unit for Terran that has EMP, Irradiate (a small aoe-damage that is put “on” a target, much like lightning shield in War2) and Defense Matrix (like the BC’s get in SC2 campaign)

Pro: Multiple useful spells, EMP works wonders against Protoss, Irradiate is used to great effect in TvZ, and Dmatrix is used in some aspects of defense.
Con: Vulnerable to Plague, and require decent micro to utilise effectively.

Valkyrie
Weirdly despite being the assigned Terran anti-air - these gals aren’t really used very often. They are slow and have good damage... but Goliaths fill that role a lot more effectively.

Pro: Large aoe damage in anti-air battles
Con: Rarely seen except for the odd TvZ where someone is being a smartass.

Zerg

Lurker
Amazing siege and zone-control Zerg units - these guys are burrowed and can attack - invisible without detection. Used largely in ZvP and also ZvT, they can carve up Terran units with ease and in larger groups will blast Protoss units apart too.

Pro: Powerful anti-ground attack, can be extremely effective in ambush style attacks
Con: Cannot move when burrowed, cannot attack until burrowed.

Defiler
The amazing Zerg casting unit - providing Dark Swarm (Kind of like point-defense drone - all zerg units underneath take no ranged damage (still take melee and splash though)), Plague (fungal growth, but takes units/buildings down 300hp max until they hit 1/3hp (not dead though)), and consume (eat zerg unit to get energy back). Here’s an example of some Plague aka YAAAAAA PLAYGUUUUUUUUUUU-----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpuv7VPb2rA


Pro: Very powerful and well-rounded abilities[
Con: have no personal attack skill, and need energy or are completely useless

Infested Terran
Different from the SC2 infesterd Terran - the BW equivalent are made from an Infested Command Center. Obviously this is generally only seen in ZvT, and even then only on extremely rare occasions. They are essentially suicide bombers that run in and do massive AoE damage to units/buildings.

Pro: Huge AoE damage
Con: Rarely ever seen, because Queens rarely ever infest CC’s

Scourge
Zerg primary anti-air - another suicide bomber - they are fantastic for dealing with corsairs and Science vessels - and are almost always seen in ZvZ for anti-muta

Pro: Great anti-air damage...
Con: … but they die

Queen
Different to the SC2 Queen - these royal units are up in the air. They are not seen too much - mainly used for ensnare in some “modern” ZvZ to deal with mutalisks - but other than that are rarely seen. They can infest damaged Terran CCs and turn them into zerg buildings - and can also destroy and turn a ground unit (most of them) into broodlings.

Pro: Infested CC’s are hilarious but rarely seen - ensnare is great for catching mutalisks to kill with scourge/devourers
Con: Rarely seen in general, can be slow and mostly Ensnare is the only useful skill (in practice - in theory Spawn Broodlings is awesome however)

Guardian

[image loading]


Broodlords great grandfather. Slow but heavy hitting Zerg air-siege weapons.

Pro: Same as Broodlords
Con: Same as Broodlords

Devourer
Essentially the Corruptors of BW - however they have a weird attack that I cbf explain so go to the unit link

Pro: Average anti-air damage and very tanky
Con: Average anti-air damage and very tanky (these are kinda both good and bad things depending on the situation - either way these units are rarely used)




That does it for the general differences. Please note that if you go here there are far more details for you about the BW units including differences between BW and SC2 units that only changed to a small degree (eg High Templar, Ghosts, Hydralisks)

Lets go over to the desk with LasTLie providing some strategic insight!




PvT:

Ah Protoss vs Terran, by far my favorite matchup of all. Terrans will almost always have an army made up of Siege Tanks and Vultures, eventually adding in Goliaths and Science Vessles as Protoss adds in Dropships or Arbiters into their mix. Protoss are commonly seen using the ever-reliable Zealots and Dragoons, adding in some High Templar or Reavers, with Arbiters coming in during mid to late game. The unit choices here are based upon a sort of cycle of killing - zealots kill tanks, tanks kill dragoons, dragoons kill vultures, vultures kill zealots. The caster units(Science Vessel, High Templar, Reavers, Arbiters) come in late game in an attempt to break this cycle and generally cause some havoc. All throughout the game, expect to see Vultures running by cannons to harass the poor probes who just want to work, along with the mighty High Templars or the manly Reavers sneaking around in dropships to strike at Terran’s economy. After a Protoss gets Arbiters, it isn’t uncommon to see some game-altering recalls into Terran bases. Even if a Terran is ahead, it sucks to get all your production buildings killed.

PvP:

Protoss vs Protoss is somewhere inbetween when it comes to mirror matchups. Not quite as intense as Zerg vs Zerg, but nowhere near as turtle-y as Terran vs Terran. The army compositions are generally quite similar where one major choice makes the difference in how a player will approach the game - Reavers or High Templar. The backbone of every protoss’ army will be Dragoons and Speedlots(Zealots with Speed upgrade - similar to Chargelots in SC2). After the core(along with Observers and Shuttles for some utility), a Protoss needs to choose what will be making the big damages for them. One choice is to use High Templar with their Psionic Storm - cover an army in enough storms and they can’t dodge out of it and can take some massive damage. The other possibility is the adorable Reaver. Despite their cute appearance, a Revaer’s scarab does some very painful splash damage. A few good Scarabs can destroy a Protoss army if they get too close together(and they do, Dragoons love to rub up against each other and be generally derp-y in their movement).

PvZ:

A Protoss will start out this match one of two ways - Forge Fast Expand or a Two Gate Pressure build. Although the FFE is much more common, playing it risky and going for the two gate can get Protoss a large advantage if they can kill enough drones. However, if a Protoss chooses to do the Forge Fast Expand then they need to be careful with their ground army while try and harass with some Corsairs. You’ll most commonly see Zergs go for a Hydra Bust to try and either end the game or gain a huge advantage. With the right timing, a Zerg can get enough productive capability to make an Hydralisk*-based armor large enough to break through a Protoss’ Forge wall-in and possibly plunder and pillage the Natural Expansion. During these rough times of busts, a Protoss’ best friends are High Templar and Reavers. When the Zerg have such large numbers, it is necessary to use splash damage if they want to have any chance to survive. Psionic Storms and Scarabs can truly decimate a Zerg army. After the timing window for Hydra Busts has passed, both races will want to take more bases and prepare their armies. Protoss will stick with the ever faithful Zealots, Dragoons, Templars, and Reavers(probably with some air support for Corsairs) while the Zergs will be massing Zerglings, Hydralisks, Lurkers, and Defilers.

*It’s rumored that Hydralisks exist in StarCraft 2, but the rarity of a Hydralisk being scene makes me weary of anyone who claims they exist. They are truly the Bigfoot of SC2.

ZvT:

In Zerg vs Terran, the flow of the game is controlled by a Terran’s choice of units. A Terran gets the choice of either going with a Bionic army(mainly Marines and Medics, with Tanks and Science Vessels sprinkled in for flavor) or a Mechanic army(Tanks, Vultures, Goliaths, Science Vessls). Zerg on the other hand, will usually play in a reactive way. Of course they’ll use the basis of Zerglings and Defilers with either Lurkers(vs Bionic) or Hydralisks(vs Mechanic). Depending on openings though, a Zerg could also get some Mutalisks out and, assuming they don’t all get shot out of the sky, they can later morph them into Guardians for some great Air-to-Ground units that make for amazing defenders. Finally, Zergs can get some Ultralisks in the late game(watch the Zerg’s number of bases-Ultralisks usually take five or more gas geysers for solid production). A somewhat recent shift in the meta has been that Terrans have sometimes stopped staying with one composition. Sometimes, they’ll start of Bionic and then take a few extra bases to mass up a Mechanic army. This can be quite difficult for Zergs to deal with, because it means they have to quickly switch their own unit composition once the new Mech army starts to move out. If a Zerg isn’t careful, it can be easy to get runover by the ball of Terran Steel.

ZvZ:

Zerg vs Zerg is probably the most volatile of the matchups. For the most part, people have considered it to be a coinflip with certain openings being almost a hard counter to other openings. While some players have been able to choose which side the coin lands on, most zergs are lucky to maintain about a 50% winrate. With a few exceptions, you’ll see only a few basic units used in this matchup. Besides the obvious Drones and Overlords, players usually only ever get Zerglings, Mutalisks, and Scourge. While most matches will end in ten minutes or less, sometimes players can get in a situation that forces the matchup into Hive Tech. Hive Tech ZvZs are some of the craziest games that happen simply because it rarely does happen. Although early game is said to be “figured out” by the pros, late game is still quite an enigma where virtually any(and every) unit gets used.

TvT:

Terran vs Terran, aka naptime. This matchup is famous for hour long turtle matchups that are about as exciting as watching two actual turtles fight. Due to the basic nature of the Terran race, the games become very position-based and players aren’t always willing to give up a good position in order to make an attack or try to claim more map control for themselves. A TvT match can pretty much be divided into two battles - the battle for air supremacy and the battle for ground supremacy. On the ground, Terrans will always have Tanks as the core of their army with either Goliaths or Vultures finishing out their composition. Meanwhile in the skies, the battle can be a little harder to see who is winning. Sometimes players will mass dropships in hopes of getting the perfect drop on an opposing base and destroy tech or deny precious minerals and gas. Although other times, players may make large clouds of Wraiths with Valkyries. If the game makes to to super late game(over an hour in, with the map being nearly mined out), we may even get a treat and see Battlecruisers duking it out. Watching a player clone Yamato Cannon shots is an amazing thing to see.

Thanks very much for reading - if you have anything else you'd like to add please feel free to post! Also make sure you check out the main TL article about strategy here.

Thanks from LasTLie and DUCKVILLE!

GG

****
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
LasTLiE
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States428 Posts
May 20 2012 02:28 GMT
#2
Awesome post, especially the parts written by that LasTLiE guy. He's so smart and handsome.
"[21:01] kjwcj: i wanna put an aftermarket heatsink on your northbridge, lastlie" http://twitter.com/ThatGuyLastly
Rudolph
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States161 Posts
May 20 2012 02:36 GMT
#3
On May 20 2012 11:28 LasTLiE wrote:
Awesome post, especially the parts written by that LasTLiE guy. He's so smart and handsome.


I didn't get this at first. I walked away and 5 minutes later I looked at your name. O.o
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
May 20 2012 02:38 GMT
#4
Do you mind if I add this to the LR thread in the SC2 forum? With credit, of course. Or, if you'd prefer, I could just link it - great info!
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
EngrishTeacher
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Canada1109 Posts
May 20 2012 02:39 GMT
#5
We'll see everything turns out today, if the viewer numbers would stay consistent throughout the BW/SC2 sections of proleague.

Or else all of your tireless efforts would be such a waste X_X
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
May 20 2012 02:42 GMT
#6
Wow really bad explanations of the matchups.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11286 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-20 02:53:41
May 20 2012 02:51 GMT
#7
Nice initiative there. You should add "Reach's Lockdown: Reach vs Chojja" for DAs and "Savior's Stop Lurker" for lurkers

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7sFI1XsUfE&feature=related

WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-20 02:52:08
May 20 2012 02:51 GMT
#8
On May 20 2012 11:42 Chef wrote:
Wow really bad explanations of the matchups.

It's good enough, it's mainly for the newbs who go like "wtf Mech TvP"

5/5 Deserves a spotlight
¯\_(シ)_/¯
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-20 02:56:41
May 20 2012 02:54 GMT
#9
On May 20 2012 11:51 Whatson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2012 11:42 Chef wrote:
Wow really bad explanations of the matchups.

It's good enough, it's mainly for the newbs who go like "wtf Mech TvP"

5/5 Deserves a spotlight

No it's bad. 'ZvZ is luck and TvT is boring lawl' ya you don't know anything. Exactly how you don't want to set things up for someone interesting in understanding bw on a basic level.

Most useful advice is that the minimap is important in understanding the game and army movements, much more so than it is in SC2. Territory is a very important concept in BW in terms of more than just having expansions, but who is in a position to take more expansions and who is in a position to counter attack etc. Esp. in TvT if you don't look at the minimap it will feel like 40 minutes of tanks exploding, but if you do look at the minimap it is actually an amazing and fun matchup to watch and feels like a StarCraft version of Go.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Ares[Effort] *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
DEMACIA6550 Posts
May 20 2012 02:55 GMT
#10
Good stuff man, so excited!
Moderatorgold coin
jax1492
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1632 Posts
May 20 2012 03:04 GMT
#11
nice work, i loved the gorush clip
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
May 20 2012 03:04 GMT
#12
On May 20 2012 11:54 Chef wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2012 11:51 Whatson wrote:
On May 20 2012 11:42 Chef wrote:
Wow really bad explanations of the matchups.

It's good enough, it's mainly for the newbs who go like "wtf Mech TvP"

5/5 Deserves a spotlight

No it's bad. 'ZvZ is luck and TvT is boring lawl' ya you don't know anything. Exactly how you don't want to set things up for someone interesting in understanding bw on a basic level.

...When have I ever said that? I'm 100% certain that never in my entire life have I ever said that TvT was boring, and I absolutely never comment on ZvZ because I have 0 understanding of the matchup.
¯\_(シ)_/¯
almond
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
115 Posts
May 20 2012 03:17 GMT
#13
On May 20 2012 12:04 Whatson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2012 11:54 Chef wrote:
On May 20 2012 11:51 Whatson wrote:
On May 20 2012 11:42 Chef wrote:
Wow really bad explanations of the matchups.

It's good enough, it's mainly for the newbs who go like "wtf Mech TvP"

5/5 Deserves a spotlight

No it's bad. 'ZvZ is luck and TvT is boring lawl' ya you don't know anything. Exactly how you don't want to set things up for someone interesting in understanding bw on a basic level.

...When have I ever said that? I'm 100% certain that never in my entire life have I ever said that TvT was boring, and I absolutely never comment on ZvZ because I have 0 understanding of the matchup.

Did you even read the OP? lol

To be fair, after Jvz was gone, zvz does seem like mostly coin flips. Just look at the top 5 ZvZ elo atm.
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
May 20 2012 03:31 GMT
#14
On May 20 2012 12:17 almond wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2012 12:04 Whatson wrote:
On May 20 2012 11:54 Chef wrote:
On May 20 2012 11:51 Whatson wrote:
On May 20 2012 11:42 Chef wrote:
Wow really bad explanations of the matchups.

It's good enough, it's mainly for the newbs who go like "wtf Mech TvP"

5/5 Deserves a spotlight

No it's bad. 'ZvZ is luck and TvT is boring lawl' ya you don't know anything. Exactly how you don't want to set things up for someone interesting in understanding bw on a basic level.

...When have I ever said that? I'm 100% certain that never in my entire life have I ever said that TvT was boring, and I absolutely never comment on ZvZ because I have 0 understanding of the matchup.

Did you even read the OP? lol

To be fair, after Jvz was gone, zvz does seem like mostly coin flips. Just look at the top 5 ZvZ elo atm.

Uhm yes I did actually. lol. If YOU actually read the post I quoted, he says "'ZvZ is luck and TvT is boring lawl"' ya you don't know anything." Obviously I've never said TvT was a boring MU, nor have I ever commented on a ZvZ game. The OP is good enough for a beginner's guide, and that's what it is.
¯\_(シ)_/¯
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
May 20 2012 03:33 GMT
#15
whatson you need to follow the train of thought better. I was showing what I disapproved of in the OP. It explains the mechanics well, but it does not satisfy me in terms of the matchup explanations ;p
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
May 20 2012 06:25 GMT
#16
Sick blog for BW virgins.
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
May 20 2012 08:59 GMT
#17
nice, but a few nitpicks:

Lurker
Con: Cannot move when burrowed, are slow above ground and cannot attack until burrowed.


They're not really that slow when unburrowed (about as fast as speed hydras iirc?)

DefilerPlague (fungal growth, but takes units/buildings down 300hp max until they hit 1/3hp (not dead though))


Pretty sure plague can take a unit down to 1, not 1/3, hp.
Writer
storkfan
Profile Joined March 2012
493 Posts
May 20 2012 10:29 GMT
#18
On May 20 2012 17:59 ]343[ wrote:
nice, but a few nitpicks:

Show nested quote +
Lurker
Con: Cannot move when burrowed, are slow above ground and cannot attack until burrowed.


They're not really that slow when unburrowed (about as fast as speed hydras iirc?)

Show nested quote +
DefilerPlague (fungal growth, but takes units/buildings down 300hp max until they hit 1/3hp (not dead though))


Pretty sure plague can take a unit down to 1, not 1/3, hp.

lurks faster than that. speedhydras are slowest zerg ground unit after defilers
storkfan
Profile Joined March 2012
493 Posts
May 20 2012 10:30 GMT
#19
And yeah tvt isnt boring recently, last seasons tvts were very aggressive with 2 base battles over map control and bust-style builds
Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1240 Posts
May 20 2012 12:41 GMT
#20
On May 20 2012 17:59 ]343[ wrote:
nice, but a few nitpicks:

Show nested quote +
Lurker
Con: Cannot move when burrowed, are slow above ground and cannot attack until burrowed.


They're not really that slow when unburrowed (about as fast as speed hydras iirc?)

Show nested quote +
DefilerPlague (fungal growth, but takes units/buildings down 300hp max until they hit 1/3hp (not dead though))


Pretty sure plague can take a unit down to 1, not 1/3, hp.


True, they aren't really that slow - I'll edit that one

That plague stat I was just going by what Liquipedia said because I couldn't remember the exact numbers, and it says "1-3 hp" so I dunno
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
Kraznaya
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3711 Posts
May 20 2012 13:33 GMT
#21
1-3 hp as in literally 1 to 3 hp, not 1/3 hp
do you have enough resolve, hero of justice?
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6592 Posts
May 20 2012 13:42 GMT
#22
On May 20 2012 12:31 Whatson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2012 12:17 almond wrote:
On May 20 2012 12:04 Whatson wrote:
On May 20 2012 11:54 Chef wrote:
On May 20 2012 11:51 Whatson wrote:
On May 20 2012 11:42 Chef wrote:
Wow really bad explanations of the matchups.

It's good enough, it's mainly for the newbs who go like "wtf Mech TvP"

5/5 Deserves a spotlight

No it's bad. 'ZvZ is luck and TvT is boring lawl' ya you don't know anything. Exactly how you don't want to set things up for someone interesting in understanding bw on a basic level.

...When have I ever said that? I'm 100% certain that never in my entire life have I ever said that TvT was boring, and I absolutely never comment on ZvZ because I have 0 understanding of the matchup.

Did you even read the OP? lol

To be fair, after Jvz was gone, zvz does seem like mostly coin flips. Just look at the top 5 ZvZ elo atm.

Uhm yes I did actually. lol. If YOU actually read the post I quoted, he says "'ZvZ is luck and TvT is boring lawl"' ya you don't know anything." Obviously I've never said TvT was a boring MU, nor have I ever commented on a ZvZ game. The OP is good enough for a beginner's guide, and that's what it is.


man... yet another misunderstanding... Chef was talking about the way the OP talked about ZvZ and then introduced TvT not what YOU think about it. That's why Almond asked if you even read the OP... not very hard to understand x.x

Anyway I agree, everything is really well written except the match up descriptions. And Plague definitely brings units down to 1hp. Although I vaguely remember sometimes the last tick wouldn't go and they would be at like 2 or 3hp. Which I believe is what LP might be trying to say.
LiquidDota Staff
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5536 Posts
May 20 2012 15:23 GMT
#23
How on earth is TvT boring? It has produced some of the absolutely best BW games during the past several years. Flash vs. Fantasy? Flash vs. FBH? Leta's games? Seems like the OP has only watched some 2001 games or something. T___________________T
LastWish
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
2013 Posts
May 20 2012 15:39 GMT
#24
On May 20 2012 21:41 Duckvillelol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2012 17:59 ]343[ wrote:
nice, but a few nitpicks:

Lurker
Con: Cannot move when burrowed, are slow above ground and cannot attack until burrowed.


They're not really that slow when unburrowed (about as fast as speed hydras iirc?)

DefilerPlague (fungal growth, but takes units/buildings down 300hp max until they hit 1/3hp (not dead though))


Pretty sure plague can take a unit down to 1, not 1/3, hp.


True, they aren't really that slow - I'll edit that one

That plague stat I was just going by what Liquipedia said because I couldn't remember the exact numbers, and it says "1-3 hp" so I dunno


Yeah you should have written 1-3, because 1/3 seems like reduce to a one third of hp which is not true.
I think the way it works is that it does 3-4 dmg per one cycle but it does not go to 0 or below.
- It's all just treason - They bring me down with their lies - Don't know the reason - My life is fire and ice -
Jitsu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States929 Posts
May 20 2012 15:56 GMT
#25
Feature this, googo.
Zerg Player in CheckMate Gaming - http://checkmategaming.webs.com/
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-20 17:45:44
May 20 2012 17:45 GMT
#26
It's a good guide, I would change a few things personally, but that's not really important. The thing that stuck out to me the most (for some odd reason) is that you said that Corsairs are better anti-air units than Scouts. I would say that, because of the high cost of Scouts, and the low cost of Corsairs (combined with them have an enormous AOE splash damage), they are much more cost-efficient than Scouts.

Edit: PvP is boring, TvT is awesome, ZvZ is awesome.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
sixfour
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
England11061 Posts
May 20 2012 19:09 GMT
#27
nice post. when you underlined "generally" in the infested terran section i thought that was going to be a link to that zero game on holy world (vs kal?)
p: stats, horang2, free, jangbi z: soulkey, zero, shine, hydra t: leta, hiya, sea
TheRealNanMan
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1471 Posts
May 22 2012 21:37 GMT
#28
Awesome write up! :D Makes me want to play BW now
Sc2 Caster | Host of Sc2 Up & Coming | The Godfather of Team LXG | Sc2 Historian | Youtube.com/NanMan | Twitch.tv/TheRealNanMan | Twitter.com/TheRealNanMan |
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-23 03:09:58
May 23 2012 03:08 GMT
#29
On May 21 2012 00:39 LastWish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2012 21:41 Duckvillelol wrote:
On May 20 2012 17:59 ]343[ wrote:
nice, but a few nitpicks:

Lurker
Con: Cannot move when burrowed, are slow above ground and cannot attack until burrowed.


They're not really that slow when unburrowed (about as fast as speed hydras iirc?)

DefilerPlague (fungal growth, but takes units/buildings down 300hp max until they hit 1/3hp (not dead though))


Pretty sure plague can take a unit down to 1, not 1/3, hp.


True, they aren't really that slow - I'll edit that one

That plague stat I was just going by what Liquipedia said because I couldn't remember the exact numbers, and it says "1-3 hp" so I dunno


Yeah you should have written 1-3, because 1/3 seems like reduce to a one third of hp which is not true.
I think the way it works is that it does 3-4 dmg per one cycle but it does not go to 0 or below.


It's 300 damage max but doesn't kill. Also, I think consume should be mentioned.

Also ghosts, dropship, bc info should be included. Lockdown is ok vs Toss, nuke was OMGASM (when it happened), but ghost was pretty useless. Dropship DID NOT heal. BC was super tanky one big hit at a time.That kind of stuff.

*mutters about sctoo noobs*
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1240 Posts
May 25 2012 09:09 GMT
#30
On May 21 2012 04:09 sixfour wrote:
nice post. when you underlined "generally" in the infested terran section i thought that was going to be a link to that zero game on holy world (vs kal?)


Oh my god I totally forgot about that game. Going to go watch it now :O
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
Azera
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3800 Posts
May 25 2012 09:44 GMT
#31
VERY HELPFUL!
Check out some great music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc.
Ange777
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Germany1164 Posts
May 25 2012 15:11 GMT
#32
Thanks for the great explanation!
♥ Sen - 台灣之光 ♥
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