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had a fight with my boss.
Not a regular fight when you argue about random shit, but something serious. Basically, we have different views on how the project should be done. Not gonna go into details. I'm willing to stand my ground, if he wants to fire me then its ok. I don't have any plan B, and didn't look for another job, and I'm not sure if I will find another suitable job anytime soon.
The issue is not that serious, but I've always been kinda 'Ok I will do as you wish' guy. But this one is too far over the line, and I don't like it.
So, I want to know what community thinks. How do you act in this kind of situations? Maybe some of you are bosses already, what do you do in these situations? What would you suggest?
 
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It's completely fine to be stubborn and stand your ground, as long as you're right in the end. Even if you're wrong a good boss will use it as an opportunity to teach you. In any case being stubborn enough to fight for doing the project the right way even in the face of risk shows that you care, which a good boss will appreciate even if they don't show it.
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Some people say that there are no mistakes, as long as you learn from your experiences-- and that learning may pay off in this lifetime or next? Who knows?
No one can really say how this will turn out, every person is unique and everyone deals with situations differently. There is a chance that the fact you stood up to your boss will make him back off, and there's a chance that he will take his power and smite you..
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I see you're from Singapore. Well... I've worked with businessmen from Singapore. They tend to look out for number one, and if they can get away with something dirty they do it. If this is one of those things, an ethical quandry, I sympathize, it's a difficult position. Maybe I've only had to deal with the rotten eggs and maybe a higher up will value your character, but basically the impression I've gotten is that ethics won't earn you any promotions in Singapore.
There's no right answer here, it all depends on what your company is like, if your boss is a good or a bad boss and if you standing your ground will improve the project noticeably.
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Your are being to ambiguous. It's like a guy comes onto a forum and says "hey guys I just killed this guy, is this okay?" and all people goes "Hell no, what is wrong with you, hope you get to jail" then it turns out that the guy was kidnapped, sat in a box for 1 week and was tortured for 5 months before by a mistake the guy got free and had to kill the assailant since he had a gun stored in the house and would had shot him while escaping if he would had let him live.
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On March 30 2012 17:14 Integra wrote:
Your are being to ambiguous. It's like a guy comes onto a forum and says "hey guys I just killed this guy, is this okay?" and all people goes "Hell no, what is wrong with you, hope you get to jail" then it turns out that the guy was kidnapped, sat in a box for 1 week and was tortured for 5 months before by a mistake the guy got free and had to kill the assailant since he had a gun stored in the house and would had shot him while escaping if he would had let him live.
I'll try to explain my situation in short. We have a contract with a company who are developing a system X for us. The system X connects to other bunch of systems of our company. Majority of the project is done, and we're going to finish the project soon. Problems:
1) The company we have contract with have only two qualified developers who are doing this project, and they're in tight schedule. Our system administrator has to take over the project after its done. but now, he doesn't have idea how it works. Boss wants him to work with system X in development phase, so that after the project finishes he had total understanding of everything. I tell my boss we shouldn't distract developers, or we gonna fail to deliver the project in time (which is very important since we're a government institution). Developers are totally against it, we already tried and its slowing down the project pretty badly. Besides, after project finishes, we have two weeks of training according to the contract.
2) two systems of our company have technical problems, they're not ready to connect to our system X. But they're already resolving the issues. I have general idea what the problems are and how/when they're going to be fixed.
Boss wants me to be incontrol of these problems and every specific details. I have no idea how those systems work and don't have any skills to help them. I've already asked them if can I help, they told me I can't by any means. If I interfere I'll just slow them down. Boss keeps on harassing me about that system, although its perfectly clear I can't do anything about it.
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Boss wants me to be incontrol
I see. That's a very tough request. I'm not sure if I were able to comply either.
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sometimes it's right, sometimes you just have to say fuck it and watch others drive the project into a wall.
don't think anyone can say what will happen, but I think AcrossFiveJulys said it well, a good boss will discuss it with
you and will not see it as a personal attack but as a part of the whole project.
good luck to you
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Here's how I view these things... He's the boss. You explain your feelings/opinion of the situation (in a calm rational way - maybe even write up an alternative plan for him to "consider" this weekend... If that doesn't change his mind: "He's the boss".
If you want to fight him, you need to be able to go over his head. Your boss has a boss right? Take your well written report/plan to him and let him know how you feel. (Be aware that this is likely to put you in a very tough/awkward position).
That being said, I've had bosses that looked at my proposal and said "how dare you question me?" I started looking for a new job as soon as my shift was over!
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Well Singapore has 2% unemployment, right? So there are plenty of opportunities for work, and no need to waste life in an uncomfortable situation, right?
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On March 30 2012 18:53 storkfan wrote:
Well Singapore has 2% unemployment, right? So there are plenty of opportunities for work, and no need to waste life in an uncomfortable situation, right?
This is not a very helpful comment at all -.-"
I suggest what you do what the poster a few above said... Try and calmly relay your feelings to your boss. If he still refuses, then just go along with what he says. He will be the captain of the Titanic, not you. Furthermore, because he is said captain, it's his call how things will be done - he's responsible for the project as a whole, so he should be the one to call the shots.
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Well, this all comes down to how you rate your boss. Is he the good boss who will take the heat if shits hits the fan and be accountable for his own decision or is he the scum that just wants to climb the ladder?
The former understands that people don't always agree with them and he has the right to chose the path because he is in a higher position of authority but he will be there to fix shits and answer tough questions when the blame comes. The latter will always try to pin some one as the fall guy.
From your description, I would recommend caution, people are not stupid, you probably already explained your use and skills in relevance of the project, don't assume for a second that he doesn't understand that. He probably senses risks and want to pin some one because he also doesn't know how to contribute but he is the one who is going to accountable in the end if the project fails.
Either that or he is the just micro managing type who likes to have visibilities on things, in that case, you really should jump ship before the stress makes you quit lol... from experience, a lot of Singaporeans are like that.
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On March 30 2012 19:24 haduken wrote:
Well, this all comes down to how you rate your boss. Is he the good boss who will take the heat if shits hits the fan and be accountable for his own decision or is he the scum that just wants to climb the ladder?
The former understands that people don't always agree with them and he has the right to chose the path because he is in a higher position of authority but he will be there to fix shits and answer tough questions when the blame comes. The latter will always try to pin some one as the fall guy.
From your description, I would recommend caution, people are not stupid, you probably already explained your use and skills in relevance of the project, don't assume for a second that he doesn't understand that. He probably senses risks and want to pin some one because he also doesn't know how to contribute but he is the one who is going to accountable in the end if the project fails.
Either that or he is the just micro managing type who likes to have visibilities on things, in that case, you really should jump ship before the stress makes you quit lol... from experience, a lot of Singaporeans are like that.
That's exactly what I'm thinking.
1) he is the type who wants to climb the ladder, mostly tries to impress the crowd, but when we are alone he talks like a nice person.
2) he constantly gives random orders (sometimes totally unnecessary) to remind everyone who is the boss.
3) he does a lot of mistakes but generally gives impression of active and caring worker. Therefore everyone from the top thinks he is a good boss. He might be a good boss, but he has obvious flaws which makes working with him very difficult. Almost all people in our department complain about him.
I myself don't think I could be boss or substitute him, because I'm too shy and my morality always takes over.
I think I just need to find my courage and move on. Need to find another job.
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Boss wants him to work with system X in development phase, so that after the project finishes he had total understanding of everything.
looooooooooooool That never works, ever. You just annoy the development team and or the slow it down massively if they actually have to make the person understand.
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Trust. Your little skirmish situation happens all the time in many people's lives. But trust. In the end, he is your boss; it is his call. Maybe in the end you can say "see, I told you so."
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On March 30 2012 20:50 Count9 wrote:
looooooooooooool That never works, ever. You just annoy the development team and or the slow it down massively if they actually have to make the person understand.
Man, don't go overboard. It's a tradeoff, right? Yes it might slow down the schedule, but not involving the people who are going to be using a system is a good way to make something unusable.
To the OP: Unless you're willing to quit over this, you are not in a position to say no to specific instructions from your superiors, reasonable or not. If you make your concerns clear and they're disregarded, you're stuck with it. If it's an ethical or legal problem, that can be different, but it doesn't sound like that.
On March 30 2012 16:41 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
It's completely fine to be stubborn and stand your ground, as long as you're right in the end. Even if you're wrong a good boss will use it as an opportunity to teach you. In any case being stubborn enough to fight for doing the project the right way even in the face of risk shows that you care, which a good boss will appreciate even if they don't show it.
Absolutely untrue. That's a good way to be marked as someone who is hard to work with and given poor reviews or fired. The right way to handle such situations is to make the best possible case for what should be done and then follow instructions if told to do something else. If the boss is mistaken and won't listen to reason, being stubborn won't fix that, and there's also the very real possibility they know more than you do.
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On March 30 2012 16:30 bokeevboke wrote:
had a fight with my boss.
Not a regular fight when you argue about random shit, but something serious. Basically, we have different views on how the project should be done. Not gonna go into details. I'm willing to stand my ground, if he wants to fire me then its ok. I don't have any plan B, and didn't look for another job, and I'm not sure if I will find another suitable job anytime soon.
The issue is not that serious, but I've always been kinda 'Ok I will do as you wish' guy. But this one is too far over the line, and I don't like it.
So, I want to know what community thinks. How do you act in this kind of situations? Maybe some of you are bosses already, what do you do in these situations? What would you suggest?
Well, since he is the boss then he is a more valuable asset to the company compared to you. You have every right, and you should, voice your opinion, but you should never get into a fight with your superior in a workplace, no matter what reason. In the end, he is responsible and he has last word because he is worth more to the company than you are and you are nothing more than a resource to use to accomplish certain goals, if there is any argument then it will always be the conclusion that he told you to do something and you didn't listen to your superior hence you can by law(at least in sweden) be fired instantly.
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Ummmm, no you can't be insubordinate.... period. Only times it's really acceptable to refuse your boss is if it is unsafe physically or mentally. If it's just a direction you don't agree with then suck it up. He pays you, to do what he wants. He's your boss not your friend. It's kind of hard to comment without any information by the way.
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On March 30 2012 19:43 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 19:24 haduken wrote:
Well, this all comes down to how you rate your boss. Is he the good boss who will take the heat if shits hits the fan and be accountable for his own decision or is he the scum that just wants to climb the ladder?
The former understands that people don't always agree with them and he has the right to chose the path because he is in a higher position of authority but he will be there to fix shits and answer tough questions when the blame comes. The latter will always try to pin some one as the fall guy.
From your description, I would recommend caution, people are not stupid, you probably already explained your use and skills in relevance of the project, don't assume for a second that he doesn't understand that. He probably senses risks and want to pin some one because he also doesn't know how to contribute but he is the one who is going to accountable in the end if the project fails.
Either that or he is the just micro managing type who likes to have visibilities on things, in that case, you really should jump ship before the stress makes you quit lol... from experience, a lot of Singaporeans are like that. That's exactly what I'm thinking. 1) he is the type who wants to climb the ladder, mostly tries to impress the crowd, but when we are alone he talks like a nice person. 2) he constantly gives random orders (sometimes totally unnecessary) to remind everyone who is the boss. 3) he does a lot of mistakes but generally gives impression of active and caring worker. Therefore everyone from the top thinks he is a good boss. He might be a good boss, but he has obvious flaws which makes working with him very difficult. Almost all people in our department complain about him. I myself don't think I could be boss or substitute him, because I'm too shy and my morality always takes over. I think I just need to find my courage and move on. Need to find another job.
Find another job ASAP.
Here is how it's going to go down. He will screw up the project by over managing shits and he will blame some one for it and you will be there to take the fall for him.
This type of guy you can never win against unless you sink to his level.
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On March 30 2012 22:36 Arkless wrote:
Ummmm, no you can't be insubordinate.... period. Only times it's really acceptable to refuse your boss is if it is unsafe physically or mentally. If it's just a direction you don't agree with then suck it up. He pays you, to do what he wants. He's your boss not your friend. It's kind of hard to comment without any information by the way.
Completely wrong advice lol...
OP is not a blue collar brick layer, he is a young professional, there will always be a job out there waiting for him.
OP, you need to plan your career and future, you can suck up and take shit when you are >35 but right now, tell that guy to go fuck him self then jump ship.
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By the way, I'm not advocating any sort of show down with your boss. Just plan your exit, tell him to fuck off by your actions but never ever say it to his face, if you do, then you are coming off as impulsive and emotional, not bad qualities but it makes you very predicable, something you don't want to stick to your reputation if you continue to play this game.
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Your boss seems to be overshooting what is possible, it sounds nice in theory but won't work in reality. You need to layout what you think needs to be done to make this work in a professional way, using professional language. No cursing, no child's play, just be calm, cool, and collected. It would also be very useful if you were to layour in a more broad way what is going wrong since your explanation in your earlier comment is in my opinion TOO vague, unless thats as clear as you can afford to be. 
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On March 30 2012 22:46 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 22:36 Arkless wrote:
Ummmm, no you can't be insubordinate.... period. Only times it's really acceptable to refuse your boss is if it is unsafe physically or mentally. If it's just a direction you don't agree with then suck it up. He pays you, to do what he wants. He's your boss not your friend. It's kind of hard to comment without any information by the way. Completely wrong advice lol... OP is not a blue collar brick layer, he is a young professional, there will always be a job out there waiting for him. OP, you need to plan your career and future, you can suck up and take shit when you are >35 but right now, tell that guy to go fuck him self then jump ship.
Thanks, you seem to totally understand my situation.
To those who say suck it up: I always used to suck it up, I can manage to ignore all screaming, rambling or insults as long as its bearable. But there are limits you know.
Only problem I have now, is whether to leave or not. I'm not sure if I can find the right job quickly enough and support my family. Bit I think haduken is right. I should be more optimistic, and try to do my best. Instead of sitting and waiting. Not to brag, but I have good it/working skills. So I shouldn't worry about finding a job.
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I'm stubborn as hell, and I would stand my ground on principle, but you have to be ready to find another job ASAP.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0IUU4.jpg)
Immediately what I thought of upon reading the title of the thread.
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Let me lay it out for you. What are your options and why finding another job is no big fucking deal.
You are young, that alone means the ball is in your court. You can get fired, quit or whatever, you can end up in the deepest and most depression shit but guess what? you will survive and your family will too because at your age you can tough it out a few years, commitments are less . Hell, if you really really can't find another job, you can pick up something like cleaning toilet (not saying you will lol) and still survive because you have years to burn to get yourself back on your feet.
Let's face it, company have no loyalty or stability these days, you can advance, climb and kiss ass and get your way to the top, then before you know it company go bust or make you redundant and if all you've learned is how to climb then you will have to climb again some where else and you will be fucked because you will compete against grads who are 10 years younger that can work faster, longer and cost 1/10th of your wage.
This is why at this point in your life, the only reason you should stay at ANY company is for personal development either professional or managerial or whatever floats your boat. Your long term goal should be as good as you can be in your field and network like crazy so by the time you hit 35 or 40 you will be so fucking good that you are indispensable to who ever wants to hire you and can demand your own wages.
Your boss contribute nothing towards your development, you can't learn managerial skills from this douche because he is fucking bad at being a manager, you can't learn skills in your own field because he always butts in and watches you and any achievement he will either claim as his own or sabotage and fuck you over so it doesn't make him look bad and if the company promotes fuck ups like him then there is nothing in it for you, don't waste your life there.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 30 2012 20:50 Count9 wrote:Show nested quote +Boss wants him to work with system X in development phase, so that after the project finishes he had total understanding of everything. looooooooooooool That never works, ever. You just annoy the development team and or the slow it down massively if they actually have to make the person understand.
It can actually be extremely important, depending on what's being done and how it's handled. The OP and further explanation are a bit too vague, but letting developers/engineers run free without involving the end user in the design process leads to a lot of overengineering, wasted time on unimportant features and bad useability. The administrator has a better understanding of what he has to do with the system, even if he doesn't understand how to use it yet, which is why his input is important. He doesn't need to be there through the entire process, because he's paid to do other stuff, but in a proper development model he should be involved or at least briefly consulted from the beginning.
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On March 30 2012 22:46 haduken wrote:
OP is not a blue collar brick layer, he is a young professional, there will always be a job out there waiting for him.
OP, you need to plan your career and future, you can suck up and take shit when you are >35 but right now, tell that guy to go fuck him self then jump ship.
Actually, it's the people over 35 who can sometimes get away with pushing back on things. The young employees are usually instantly replaceable.
To those who say suck it up: I always used to suck it up, I can manage to ignore all screaming, rambling or insults as long as its bearable. But there are limits you know.
Sure, but your description of the problem above didn't mention screaming or insults. If you feel the situation is harmful to your well-being, then yes, you're totally in the right to get out. If you're just having a disagreement over how to do the work, then you should be sucking it up. Two totally different things.
So I shouldn't worry about finding a job.
It doesn't matter who you are or what you can do -- however long you think it will take you to get a new job, triple that. If you're going to leave, do the sensible thing and find a new job before you do so.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 30 2012 17:51 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 17:14 Integra wrote:
Your are being to ambiguous. It's like a guy comes onto a forum and says "hey guys I just killed this guy, is this okay?" and all people goes "Hell no, what is wrong with you, hope you get to jail" then it turns out that the guy was kidnapped, sat in a box for 1 week and was tortured for 5 months before by a mistake the guy got free and had to kill the assailant since he had a gun stored in the house and would had shot him while escaping if he would had let him live. I'll try to explain my situation in short. We have a contract with a company who are developing a system X for us. The system X connects to other bunch of systems of our company. Majority of the project is done, and we're going to finish the project soon. Problems: 1) The company we have contract with have only two qualified developers who are doing this project, and they're in tight schedule. Our system administrator has to take over the project after its done. but now, he doesn't have idea how it works. Boss wants him to work with system X in development phase, so that after the project finishes he had total understanding of everything. I tell my boss we shouldn't distract developers, or we gonna fail to deliver the project in time (which is very important since we're a government institution). Developers are totally against it, we already tried and its slowing down the project pretty badly. Besides, after project finishes, we have two weeks of training according to the contract. 2) two systems of our company have technical problems, they're not ready to connect to our system X. But they're already resolving the issues. I have general idea what the problems are and how/when they're going to be fixed. Boss wants me to be incontrol of these problems and every specific details. I have no idea how those systems work and don't have any skills to help them. I've already asked them if can I help, they told me I can't by any means. If I interfere I'll just slow them down. Boss keeps on harassing me about that system, although its perfectly clear I can't do anything about it.
I would just tell him upfront that you need to make it clear to him that you aren't up to speed to handle this project. You have no problem managing it, but it needs to be your main focus for ___ weeks, and your other responsibilities will have to take a back seat.
If that isn't acceptable to him, then tell him you will either need to hire a third party and you will manage them, or someone else inside the company will have to manage the project and you will support them in whatever they need.
If he doesn't find any of those solutions acceptable then he's illogical and I'd start looking for another job.
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If you actually decide to be stubborn and rise against your boss, no matter what the reason, then it is something you can be proud about because you are putting your ethic as a professionnal and your own view before your own interests (which is being a sheep and saying yes to everything your boss say). And that sir is a thing you should be proud of.
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On March 31 2012 01:47 WhiteDog wrote:
If you actually decide to be stubborn and rise against your boss, no matter what the reason, then it is something you can be proud about because you are putting your ethic as a professionnal and your own view before your own interests (which is being a sheep and saying yes to everything your boss say). And that sir is a thing you should be proud of.
That doesn't make any sense. Working with other people requires communication and sometimes recognizing that everyone doesn't get to have their way on everything. Unless you can do whatever it is you do in your life entirely on your own, with nobody else's help or participation, being "stubborn" or "rising against" anything isn't going to get you anywhere you want to be.
Or, it may be virtuous to be stubborn but only, ONLY if you're right, and it still might leave you out on the street in the end.
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On March 30 2012 22:46 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 22:36 Arkless wrote:
Ummmm, no you can't be insubordinate.... period. Only times it's really acceptable to refuse your boss is if it is unsafe physically or mentally. If it's just a direction you don't agree with then suck it up. He pays you, to do what he wants. He's your boss not your friend. It's kind of hard to comment without any information by the way. Completely wrong advice lol... OP is not a blue collar brick layer, he is a young professional, there will always be a job out there waiting for him. OP, you need to plan your career and future, you can suck up and take shit when you are >35 but right now, tell that guy to go fuck him self then jump ship.
The guys still right though, you do what the boss tells you, that's why he's the boss.
if yout hink he's doing something stupid or really wrong go to his boss, other wise shut the fuck up and do what he tells you
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On March 31 2012 00:35 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 22:46 haduken wrote:
OP is not a blue collar brick layer, he is a young professional, there will always be a job out there waiting for him.
OP, you need to plan your career and future, you can suck up and take shit when you are >35 but right now, tell that guy to go fuck him self then jump ship. Actually, it's the people over 35 who can sometimes get away with pushing back on things. The young employees are usually instantly replaceable.
You might be right, but again that's entirely dependant on the company culture. If your superior really want to fire your ass he will find a way don't matter what age you are.
My point is that at >35 you have a lot more commitments, quitting will impact your life more than quitting at a younger age. When you are young, you have options, at 35 or 40, you will have loans to pay and kids to feed.
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I think the best way boss should act is to discuss and encourage people rather than giving undeniable straight-forward orders. There is a thing like motivating workers into doing something, if they are not motivated then they won't do it effieciently. Needless to say other project of our company, which is being managed by our boss, has failed badly eventhough their team consisted of more than 10 people. We're not gonna pay the developer company. And its gonna be huge problem, if they'll sue us. They have wasted one year of work into nothing. I don't wanna judge and say that its our boss' fault. But, I'm sure he could do better in order to finish the project in a more succesful way.
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On March 30 2012 22:46 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 22:36 Arkless wrote:
Ummmm, no you can't be insubordinate.... period. Only times it's really acceptable to refuse your boss is if it is unsafe physically or mentally. If it's just a direction you don't agree with then suck it up. He pays you, to do what he wants. He's your boss not your friend. It's kind of hard to comment without any information by the way. Completely wrong advice lol... OP is not a blue collar brick layer, he is a young professional, there will always be a job out there waiting for him. OP, you need to plan your career and future, you can suck up and take shit when you are >35 but right now, tell that guy to go fuck him self then jump ship.
LOL bricklayer, ditchdigger, engineer or doctor this is not about qualifications, it's about being confident and assertive. Whether your job is "blue collar" or "white collar" it is still important to be confident.
@op: Stand up for yourself, but be right. If you're wrong, be a man about it, pride isn't worth a good job (assuming it's a good job)
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EPT
