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Why do fundamental particles take up space?

Blogs > syth99
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syth99
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States59 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 03:33:58
March 24 2012 01:54 GMT
#1
I have been thinking about this a bit since i saw a tv show and someone stated the size of an electron. Why do fundamental particles take up space? if i was to take two electrons and push them together strong enough to overcome their repulsive forces what stops them from taking up the same space?
Brief googling found me not much information.
Edit:
I more so want this to be about why we think things take up space? Photons do not take up any space but when it turns into mass it gains volume? Why?


tryummm
Profile Joined August 2009
774 Posts
March 24 2012 01:56 GMT
#2
Give me 2-3 more years of studying physics and I'll PM you an answer.

Sound good?
syth99
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States59 Posts
March 24 2012 01:58 GMT
#3
On March 24 2012 10:56 tryummm wrote:
Give me 2-3 more years of studying physics and I'll PM you an answer.

Sound good?

haha, sounds great
munchmunch
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada789 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 02:14:44
March 24 2012 02:08 GMT
#4
On March 24 2012 10:54 syth99 wrote:
I have been thinking about this a bit since i saw a tv show and someone stated the size of an electron. Why do fundamental particles take up space? if i was to take two electrons and push them together strong enough to overcome their repulsive forces what stops them from taking up the same space?
Brief googling found me not much information.
Might be over my head on this one, but I think it's the Pauli exclusion principle, a fundamental law of quantum mechanics.

Edit: Oh ShadowWolf, how embarassing for you
ShadowWolf
Profile Joined March 2010
United States197 Posts
March 24 2012 02:08 GMT
#5
Focusing specifically on your question and ignoring more complex concepts that I probably don't understand anywhere close enough to answer your question, this is described by the Pauli Exclusion principle. There are better references, but a good starting point is wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle
N3rV[Green]
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1935 Posts
March 24 2012 02:21 GMT
#6
Simple, an electron is a thing, with mass and size and charge.

2 things cannot occupy the same space if they are solid. This assumes electrons are solid.
Never fear the darkness, Bran. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.
sheaRZerg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States613 Posts
March 24 2012 02:24 GMT
#7
My understanding is a fundamental particles size basically corresponds to a force they exert whenever they approach another one two closely. Bosons, for instance, can stack on top of each other...and therefore I think you would say they dont have any "size". I may be wrong...particle physics isnt exactly my thing.
"Dude, just don't listen to what I say; listen to what I mean." -Sean Plott
Lixler
Profile Joined March 2010
United States265 Posts
March 24 2012 02:25 GMT
#8
On March 24 2012 11:21 N3rV[Green] wrote:
Simple, an electron is a thing, with mass and size and charge.

2 things cannot occupy the same space if they are solid. This assumes electrons are solid.

It's nigh-meaningless to call something on the particular level "solid." The actual forces that keep fermions apart have nothing to do with "solidity," which is really just an emergent property of electromagnetically interacting macroscopic bodies anyway.
dangthatsright
Profile Joined July 2011
1158 Posts
March 24 2012 02:32 GMT
#9
To address the second question: two electrons can actually be in the same place, in a sense.

The Heisenberg uncertainty principle tells us that the position and momentum of a particle cannot both be measured exactly at any one time (more precisely, the product of the errors is at least the reduced Planck's constant over 2). This basically tells us that you can only describe a particle's state with a probability distribution. For the electrons in an atom, this is what the electron orbitals are.

The Pauli exclusion principle tells you that no identical fermions (for example, the electron) can have the same quantum states. Electrons in the atom have their quantum state described by four quantum numbers. Of these, the first three determine the electron orbital and the last one is the so-called spin of the electron. What this means is that essentially, two electrons can in fact be in the same place (though we are referring to the fact that they're in the same orbital) as long as they have different spins.
Chaves
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Brazil315 Posts
March 24 2012 02:33 GMT
#10
Come on, im still trying to figure out the 3° newton law ...
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
March 24 2012 02:37 GMT
#11
Electrons technically don't take up any space according to Quantum Mechanics, so I don't get the question.

Also, Pauli Exclusion Principle.
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
March 24 2012 02:41 GMT
#12
On March 24 2012 11:21 N3rV[Green] wrote:
Simple, an electron is a thing, with mass and size and charge.

2 things cannot occupy the same space if they are solid. This assumes electrons are solid.


epic troll
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24676 Posts
March 24 2012 02:53 GMT
#13
Quantum states aside, I would think that the energy needed to get them that close would disintegrate them lol
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Serpest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States603 Posts
March 24 2012 03:04 GMT
#14
Actually, electrons with the same spin can't occupy the same quantum state - a slight difference in semantics. Electrons have two spins: spin 1/2 (which is characteristically referred to as spin up) and spin -1/2 (spin down). Also, electrons (as do other quantum particles) don't actually occupy a particular location, but rather, they exist within a probability space. So when someone says two electrons occupy the same space, what they actually are saying is two electrons with degeneracy and opposite spins are within an area (of which their location comes down to energy probabilities).

Complicated, I know, but then I just finished my QM final exam today.
A person that attempts to diagnose themselves has a fool for a doctor and a bigger fool for a patient.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
March 24 2012 03:05 GMT
#15
how could something that exists not take up space?
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 03:23:13
March 24 2012 03:20 GMT
#16
On March 24 2012 12:05 Roe wrote:
how could something that exists not take up space?


Because it's so incredibly small its atomic mass is essentially 0. With a quick search the estimated mass is like 9.10938188 × 10^-31, which again, is so small it may as well be 0. Add into that that they move at near the speed of light, Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and Pauli Exclusion Principle and well -- you can't mash together two Electrons as described in the OP.

So yeah. Electrons exist but, for all intents and purposes, do not take up any space (technically).
d3_crescentia
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4054 Posts
March 24 2012 03:26 GMT
#17
On March 24 2012 12:20 Candadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2012 12:05 Roe wrote:
how could something that exists not take up space?


Because it's so incredibly small its atomic mass is essentially 0.

...

are you equating mass and position/volume?
once, not long ago, there was a moon here
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24676 Posts
March 24 2012 03:28 GMT
#18
I think he just means that for extremely small particles the everyday concept of position and volume aren't applicable. Technically they aren't for everyday objects either, but the approximation is so close that we neglect the difference.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 03:32:46
March 24 2012 03:29 GMT
#19
On March 24 2012 12:28 micronesia wrote:
I think he just means that for extremely small particles the everyday concept of position and volume aren't applicable. Technically they aren't for everyday objects either, but the approximation is so close that we neglect the difference.


^

But hell, I won't pretend like I know what the fuck is going on in the Quantum/Subatomic world.
keeperton
Profile Joined December 2010
United States233 Posts
March 24 2012 03:45 GMT
#20
On March 24 2012 12:04 Serpest wrote:
Actually, electrons with the same spin can't occupy the same quantum state - a slight difference in semantics. Electrons have two spins: spin 1/2 (which is characteristically referred to as spin up) and spin -1/2 (spin down). Also, electrons (as do other quantum particles) don't actually occupy a particular location, but rather, they exist within a probability space. So when someone says two electrons occupy the same space, what they actually are saying is two electrons with degeneracy and opposite spins are within an area (of which their location comes down to energy probabilities).

Complicated, I know, but then I just finished my QM final exam today.


This is also true in writing the electron configuration of an atom. Doesn't necessarily need to be as complex as quantum mechanics in this case as that's more of a general chemistry thing.
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