• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:57
CEST 01:57
KST 08:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202530RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams2Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Corsair Pursuit Micro?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 610 users

Why do fundamental particles take up space?

Blogs > syth99
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
syth99
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States59 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 03:33:58
March 24 2012 01:54 GMT
#1
I have been thinking about this a bit since i saw a tv show and someone stated the size of an electron. Why do fundamental particles take up space? if i was to take two electrons and push them together strong enough to overcome their repulsive forces what stops them from taking up the same space?
Brief googling found me not much information.
Edit:
I more so want this to be about why we think things take up space? Photons do not take up any space but when it turns into mass it gains volume? Why?


tryummm
Profile Joined August 2009
774 Posts
March 24 2012 01:56 GMT
#2
Give me 2-3 more years of studying physics and I'll PM you an answer.

Sound good?
syth99
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States59 Posts
March 24 2012 01:58 GMT
#3
On March 24 2012 10:56 tryummm wrote:
Give me 2-3 more years of studying physics and I'll PM you an answer.

Sound good?

haha, sounds great
munchmunch
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada789 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 02:14:44
March 24 2012 02:08 GMT
#4
On March 24 2012 10:54 syth99 wrote:
I have been thinking about this a bit since i saw a tv show and someone stated the size of an electron. Why do fundamental particles take up space? if i was to take two electrons and push them together strong enough to overcome their repulsive forces what stops them from taking up the same space?
Brief googling found me not much information.
Might be over my head on this one, but I think it's the Pauli exclusion principle, a fundamental law of quantum mechanics.

Edit: Oh ShadowWolf, how embarassing for you
ShadowWolf
Profile Joined March 2010
United States197 Posts
March 24 2012 02:08 GMT
#5
Focusing specifically on your question and ignoring more complex concepts that I probably don't understand anywhere close enough to answer your question, this is described by the Pauli Exclusion principle. There are better references, but a good starting point is wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle
N3rV[Green]
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1935 Posts
March 24 2012 02:21 GMT
#6
Simple, an electron is a thing, with mass and size and charge.

2 things cannot occupy the same space if they are solid. This assumes electrons are solid.
Never fear the darkness, Bran. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.
sheaRZerg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States613 Posts
March 24 2012 02:24 GMT
#7
My understanding is a fundamental particles size basically corresponds to a force they exert whenever they approach another one two closely. Bosons, for instance, can stack on top of each other...and therefore I think you would say they dont have any "size". I may be wrong...particle physics isnt exactly my thing.
"Dude, just don't listen to what I say; listen to what I mean." -Sean Plott
Lixler
Profile Joined March 2010
United States265 Posts
March 24 2012 02:25 GMT
#8
On March 24 2012 11:21 N3rV[Green] wrote:
Simple, an electron is a thing, with mass and size and charge.

2 things cannot occupy the same space if they are solid. This assumes electrons are solid.

It's nigh-meaningless to call something on the particular level "solid." The actual forces that keep fermions apart have nothing to do with "solidity," which is really just an emergent property of electromagnetically interacting macroscopic bodies anyway.
dangthatsright
Profile Joined July 2011
1158 Posts
March 24 2012 02:32 GMT
#9
To address the second question: two electrons can actually be in the same place, in a sense.

The Heisenberg uncertainty principle tells us that the position and momentum of a particle cannot both be measured exactly at any one time (more precisely, the product of the errors is at least the reduced Planck's constant over 2). This basically tells us that you can only describe a particle's state with a probability distribution. For the electrons in an atom, this is what the electron orbitals are.

The Pauli exclusion principle tells you that no identical fermions (for example, the electron) can have the same quantum states. Electrons in the atom have their quantum state described by four quantum numbers. Of these, the first three determine the electron orbital and the last one is the so-called spin of the electron. What this means is that essentially, two electrons can in fact be in the same place (though we are referring to the fact that they're in the same orbital) as long as they have different spins.
Chaves
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Brazil315 Posts
March 24 2012 02:33 GMT
#10
Come on, im still trying to figure out the 3° newton law ...
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
March 24 2012 02:37 GMT
#11
Electrons technically don't take up any space according to Quantum Mechanics, so I don't get the question.

Also, Pauli Exclusion Principle.
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
March 24 2012 02:41 GMT
#12
On March 24 2012 11:21 N3rV[Green] wrote:
Simple, an electron is a thing, with mass and size and charge.

2 things cannot occupy the same space if they are solid. This assumes electrons are solid.


epic troll
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24676 Posts
March 24 2012 02:53 GMT
#13
Quantum states aside, I would think that the energy needed to get them that close would disintegrate them lol
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Serpest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States603 Posts
March 24 2012 03:04 GMT
#14
Actually, electrons with the same spin can't occupy the same quantum state - a slight difference in semantics. Electrons have two spins: spin 1/2 (which is characteristically referred to as spin up) and spin -1/2 (spin down). Also, electrons (as do other quantum particles) don't actually occupy a particular location, but rather, they exist within a probability space. So when someone says two electrons occupy the same space, what they actually are saying is two electrons with degeneracy and opposite spins are within an area (of which their location comes down to energy probabilities).

Complicated, I know, but then I just finished my QM final exam today.
A person that attempts to diagnose themselves has a fool for a doctor and a bigger fool for a patient.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
March 24 2012 03:05 GMT
#15
how could something that exists not take up space?
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 03:23:13
March 24 2012 03:20 GMT
#16
On March 24 2012 12:05 Roe wrote:
how could something that exists not take up space?


Because it's so incredibly small its atomic mass is essentially 0. With a quick search the estimated mass is like 9.10938188 × 10^-31, which again, is so small it may as well be 0. Add into that that they move at near the speed of light, Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and Pauli Exclusion Principle and well -- you can't mash together two Electrons as described in the OP.

So yeah. Electrons exist but, for all intents and purposes, do not take up any space (technically).
d3_crescentia
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4054 Posts
March 24 2012 03:26 GMT
#17
On March 24 2012 12:20 Candadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2012 12:05 Roe wrote:
how could something that exists not take up space?


Because it's so incredibly small its atomic mass is essentially 0.

...

are you equating mass and position/volume?
once, not long ago, there was a moon here
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24676 Posts
March 24 2012 03:28 GMT
#18
I think he just means that for extremely small particles the everyday concept of position and volume aren't applicable. Technically they aren't for everyday objects either, but the approximation is so close that we neglect the difference.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 03:32:46
March 24 2012 03:29 GMT
#19
On March 24 2012 12:28 micronesia wrote:
I think he just means that for extremely small particles the everyday concept of position and volume aren't applicable. Technically they aren't for everyday objects either, but the approximation is so close that we neglect the difference.


^

But hell, I won't pretend like I know what the fuck is going on in the Quantum/Subatomic world.
keeperton
Profile Joined December 2010
United States233 Posts
March 24 2012 03:45 GMT
#20
On March 24 2012 12:04 Serpest wrote:
Actually, electrons with the same spin can't occupy the same quantum state - a slight difference in semantics. Electrons have two spins: spin 1/2 (which is characteristically referred to as spin up) and spin -1/2 (spin down). Also, electrons (as do other quantum particles) don't actually occupy a particular location, but rather, they exist within a probability space. So when someone says two electrons occupy the same space, what they actually are saying is two electrons with degeneracy and opposite spins are within an area (of which their location comes down to energy probabilities).

Complicated, I know, but then I just finished my QM final exam today.


This is also true in writing the electron configuration of an atom. Doesn't necessarily need to be as complex as quantum mechanics in this case as that's more of a general chemistry thing.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 10h 3m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 211
Liquid`TLO 170
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 950
NaDa 70
Aegong 35
Dota 2
monkeys_forever220
League of Legends
syndereN554
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1408
flusha341
Coldzera 160
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox219
AZ_Axe90
Other Games
tarik_tv8509
Grubby2368
Day[9].tv1005
shahzam504
C9.Mang0271
ViBE183
Maynarde148
Livibee79
Liquid`Ken10
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1194
BasetradeTV27
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• RyuSc2 57
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22161
League of Legends
• Doublelift5097
Other Games
• Scarra2021
• Day9tv1005
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
10h 3m
ByuN vs Zoun
SHIN vs TriGGeR
Cyan vs ShoWTimE
Rogue vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs Solar
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
Esports World Cup
1d 10h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.