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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Pareto's principle in communication is nothing new. Even Dale Carnegie claimed that in order to become good communicators, we should listen 80% of the time and speak 20% of the time. But recently, I've been wondering whether this is actually sufficient or accurate, particularly to a certain subset of people (including myself) who are predisposed to both thinking and speaking much more than the average person. I wonder if there is a better, or perhaps supplemental, guiding principle for communication. Dale Carnegie put forth the idea of Listening/Speaking in a 80/20 ratio. In addition, I wonder whether the idea of Thinking/Speaking in a 80/20 ratio is required, particularly for the more cranial portion of the population. Dale Carnegie's principle stated that since people enjoy talking more than listening to others, letting others speak most of the time would result in said person coming away with a positive impression about you and the conversation itself. The concept has been around for nearly a century, and is still incredibly popular and well regarded today. I think it would be a folly to try to debunk this idea entirely. Instead, I want to hypothesize that this guideline is simply not sufficient for some people like myself. Some people, including myself, think of ten things to say after hearing someone say one thing. We're often ready to fire back with a rebuttal or an observation while the other person is still mid-story or even mid-sentence. If you're like me, then you violate Dale Carnegie's discipline flagrantly on a regular basis (which is a whole other topic of discussion). The question I have is, how many of these "ten thoughts" that arise should be said at all. Dale Carnegie talks of how much to say, but not what or which of our thoughts to say. If you're like me, some proportion of these thoughts are bound to be brash and brazen. Others may be pompous or profane. All in all, I wonder if an additional rule of communication, "80/20 rule in Thinking/Speaking", where 80% of our thoughts are kept to ourselves, and 20% of our thoughts are expressed to the conversation partner, is warranted for some, if not all, people. The rule would most likely apply not only to face to face communication, but to all forms of internet communication and thought regurgitation as well. I'd be willing to wager that I currently don't practice this very well at all. I guess you could say that a "think before you speak type lesson, 21st century style, is in order.
Crossposted from my main blog
 
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well, thinking before you type is definitely a good practice 
I don't put too much stock in actual numbers like this. In a two-person conversation if both people thought 80% of the time and spoke 20% of the time there'd be silence 60% of the time. I hardly think that this is ideal. (We know from conversation analytic studies that every language in the world has a system (which presumably evolved from basic tenets of human interaction) that minimizes silence (as well as overlap) in conversation).
I guess his point is to think before you speak, which is good, but it doesn't make much sense if you take him too literally at his word.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On a somewhat related note, when I come up with things to say while someone is talking, I have a lot of trouble trying to not forget it while continuing to listen carefully to the other person. Even worse, when a conversation changes topic momentarily, the previous topic of conversation gets completely wiped off from my mind >_<
At least in meetings, I can write stuff down so I don't forget but it's not so easy during informal conversations.
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I think it depends on the purpose of communication and who the communication is for - which is something a lot of people look past. Are you talking to a new client? Venting to your spouse at dinner? Taking some time with your kid? This seems obvious, but in each, different levels of inhibition are needed. Your wife and son may not care if you're talking just to flush your thoughts out (this does work with the right audience), but your boss probably will be annoyed.
The point you're trying to convey, though, seems to be "should the more intellectually gifted be as deferential in communication as others"? Again, here, the purpose of communication needs to be assessed before we can answer this question. Is your audience trying to flush a thought of theirs out? If so, even your most intellectual ideas may not be well-received because they're not coming to you to ask what you think, they're coming to hear what you think about what they think.
Similarly, sometimes people just vent. Here, again, it really doesn't matter what you have to say. That you're talking instead of listening at all is enough of a nuisance.
Other times, people are actually asking you for advice - you may want to talk more than 20% of the time here. 
Listening well and using some empathy (asking "what are they trying to accomplish here") often gives you the answer for the question 'how much should I be talking here?'
From an idealistic standpoint, more people should want to listen to you if your ideas are better (or you have more of them), and therefore you should talk more. But this assumes that intellectual discourse is what is desired in communication which (I've found) is only very seldom the reason anyone wants to talk or listen at all.
Was there an intended audience in this that I missed?
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It's funny jsut by the titles I can usually guess it is your blog. Keep it up always an interesting read.
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On March 14 2012 01:34 infinity21 wrote:
On a somewhat related note, when I come up with things to say while someone is talking, I have a lot of trouble trying to not forget it while continuing to listen carefully to the other person. Even worse, when a conversation changes topic momentarily, the previous topic of conversation gets completely wiped off from my mind >_<
At least in meetings, I can write stuff down so I don't forget but it's not so easy during informal conversations.
Sounds like losing one's train of thought, occurs all the time D:
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On March 14 2012 02:02 Disregard wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 01:34 infinity21 wrote:
On a somewhat related note, when I come up with things to say while someone is talking, I have a lot of trouble trying to not forget it while continuing to listen carefully to the other person. Even worse, when a conversation changes topic momentarily, the previous topic of conversation gets completely wiped off from my mind >_<
At least in meetings, I can write stuff down so I don't forget but it's not so easy during informal conversations. Sounds like losing one's train of thought, occurs all the time D:
Yeah it occurs sometimes to most people. To me, it occurs every time :p
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I AGREE 100%, I got this problem on TL and real life!!!!!!!!!!! lol has gotten me into some trouble..
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I have several people in my life who can all talk nonstop for hours, even without much input from anyone else. It becomes difficult to even think about trying to give some of my thoughts after a while of being around them. I even blame some of my quietness on my spending so much time around them. When they don't expect you to respond they hardly give you a chance. I have a really hard time coming up with something to say in response quickly, so usually I can't begin anything with the 0.2 seconds I have do to so. As a child I used to respond at the same speed as I do now, but then I got laughed at for talking about something the rest of the group was already done discussing. So now I don't even do that anymore. It was a constant struggle to keep up and try to make a response in time. Then I gave up.
I think a lot of people judge me as shy or insecure because I don't talk very much. But really, if they just give me some time to speak, I do have a lot to say.
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I think I should try to talk less so that when I have something to say people might listen. Those quotes from barrin are words to live by.
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I've tried holding back my thoughts in conversations. I think if I did that 80% of the time, no one would talk to me, as I would just be standing there looking at them without saying anything.
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It kind of disrupts my thought process or the flow of what I am saying when someone cuts in and doesn't let me finish.
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The listening process requires completion and temporary suppression of internal thoughts in favor of comprehension. When you think of things to say midsentence, they might not have completed the thought. It's likely and possible the thought will have completely changed by the end of the sentence or whatever metric you measure them by.
By responding too quickly, you interrupt them and potentially demonstrate you've misinterpreted. 80/20 is a guideline to avoid this. Obviously there are times where you should or could speak immediately, but the great majority of people don't take the time to consciously listen. If you CAN hear the first 1/4th of a person's thought and know the last 3/4ths with great accuracy, the communication process can be expedited. Most people think they can, but they can't. The real purpose of most conversation is to bond. That's what the 80/20 rule is about.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On March 14 2012 01:34 infinity21 wrote:
On a somewhat related note, when I come up with things to say while someone is talking, I have a lot of trouble trying to not forget it while continuing to listen carefully to the other person. Even worse, when a conversation changes topic momentarily, the previous topic of conversation gets completely wiped off from my mind >_<
At least in meetings, I can write stuff down so I don't forget but it's not so easy during informal conversations.
I definitely have this problem... 
On March 14 2012 01:37 Treehead wrote:I think it depends on the purpose of communication and who the communication is for - which is something a lot of people look past. Are you talking to a new client? Venting to your spouse at dinner? Taking some time with your kid? This seems obvious, but in each, different levels of inhibition are needed. Your wife and son may not care if you're talking just to flush your thoughts out (this does work with the right audience), but your boss probably will be annoyed. The point you're trying to convey, though, seems to be "should the more intellectually gifted be as deferential in communication as others"? Again, here, the purpose of communication needs to be assessed before we can answer this question. Is your audience trying to flush a thought of theirs out? If so, even your most intellectual ideas may not be well-received because they're not coming to you to ask what you think, they're coming to hear what you think about what they think. Similarly, sometimes people just vent. Here, again, it really doesn't matter what you have to say. That you're talking instead of listening at all is enough of a nuisance. Other times, people are actually asking you for advice - you may want to talk more than 20% of the time here. Listening well and using some empathy (asking "what are they trying to accomplish here") often gives you the answer for the question 'how much should I be talking here?' From an idealistic standpoint, more people should want to listen to you if your ideas are better (or you have more of them), and therefore you should talk more. But this assumes that intellectual discourse is what is desired in communication which (I've found) is only very seldom the reason anyone wants to talk or listen at all. Was there an intended audience in this that I missed?
Awesome post, particularly the "what are they trying to accomplish here" part.
Also, I think I'm looking for intellectual discourse 90% of the time.
One of the blog topics I've considered is "Entertaining Conversation and Interesting Conversation".
I guess I'm an anomaly for seeking out interesting discussions when I go out of my way to meet people. I'm actually discouraged from showing up somewhere if I expect the conversation to be solely superficial/entertaining.
On March 14 2012 01:59 Mementoss wrote:
It's funny jsut by the titles I can usually guess it is your blog. Keep it up always an interesting read.
I'm finding that the same people keep popping up in the replies as well
(I'm looking at you Treehead, lol)
On March 14 2012 05:06 Barrin wrote:Well I collected some very relevant quotes that I agree with; they sorta sum up/explain my view(s) on it. source: http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/wordsquotes.htmShow nested quote +If you wouldn't write it and sign it, don't say it. --Earl Wilson
When you have spoken the word, it reigns over you. When it is unspoken you reign over it. -- Arabian Proverb
"Let thy speech be better than silence, or be silent." -- Dionysius of Halicarnassus
or
Don't speak unless you can improve on the silence. -- Spanish Proverb
Whatever words we utter should be chosen with care for people will hear them and be influenced by them for good or ill. --Buddha
The flood of careless, unconsidered, cheap words is the greatest enemy of the profound word. -- Stephen L. Talbott
Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it. -- Robert Frost
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. – Plato
To speak and to speak well are two things. A fool may talk, but a wise man speaks. -- Ben Jonson
Of those who say nothing, few are silent. --Thomas Neiel
If it takes a lot of words to say what you have in mind - give it more thought. --Dennis Roth
The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying something which is not everything it should be. --Edgar Allan Poe
Words calculated to catch everyone may catch no one. -- Adlai E. Stevenson Jr.
Think like a wise man but communicate in the language of the people. --William Butler Yeats
After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- Unknown Personally, I'm usually relatively quiet as I'm not much one for "small talk", but when it comes to things I care and know about then I can come up with a lot of interesting things to say :o I can say a lot and mean a lot, but I have a hard time saying little and meaning a lot People that usually say a lot and mean a little make me -.-
Damn, awesome quotes.
Also, I have some RL friends who are of few words but make their words count. Most of the things they say, whether it be serious or humorous, makes me go, WOW.
I cherish them all
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On March 14 2012 01:34 infinity21 wrote:
On a somewhat related note, when I come up with things to say while someone is talking, I have a lot of trouble trying to not forget it while continuing to listen carefully to the other person. Even worse, when a conversation changes topic momentarily, the previous topic of conversation gets completely wiped off from my mind >_<
At least in meetings, I can write stuff down so I don't forget but it's not so easy during informal conversations.
I'm exactly the same. I use a pretty subtle voice which means that I never try to talk over someone else so that I have thoughts of what to say but then I wait so long that the conversation has already moved on to another topic. I have a pretty good memory so I usually don't forget what I was trying to say, but I either have to just let it go and move along with the conversation or try to think of clever ways to go back to old topics if it was something semi-important. With one on one conversations it's not really a problem but once I'm with a group of more than three people I usually just don't talk. >.<
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I have carried out successful conversations with even PhDs on topics that I only know superficially, the trick is to simply agree with them in my own words; utilizing what little knowledge I know, I would listen intently, not for the purpose of actual comprehension but rather to pick up on keywords / search my brain for vocabulary to concur with.
Try this. Even though you know jack shit, they'll think they've found their soul mate. It makes whoever you're talking to so god damn happy to present their knowledge/views on a topic of their interest only to be agreed and approved upon 100% by another human being.
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On March 14 2012 16:33 EngrishTeacher wrote:
I have carried out successful conversations with even PhDs on topics that I only know superficially, the trick is to simply agree with them in my own words; utilizing what little knowledge I know, I would listen intently, not for the purpose of actual comprehension but rather to pick up on keywords / search my brain for vocabulary to concur with.
Try this. Even though you know jack shit, they'll think they've found their soul mate. It makes whoever you're talking to so god damn happy to present their knowledge/views on a topic of their interest only to be agreed and approved upon 100% by another human being.
Lol, your username fits along quite nicely with the content of your post.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On March 14 2012 16:33 EngrishTeacher wrote:
I have carried out successful conversations with even PhDs on topics that I only know superficially, the trick is to simply agree with them in my own words; utilizing what little knowledge I know, I would listen intently, not for the purpose of actual comprehension but rather to pick up on keywords / search my brain for vocabulary to concur with.
Try this. Even though you know jack shit, they'll think they've found their soul mate. It makes whoever you're talking to so god damn happy to present their knowledge/views on a topic of their interest only to be agreed and approved upon 100% by another human being.
This doesn't really work for me. It might go on for a while unnoticed but soon I realize that only one person is contributing to the conversation. Once I notice, it's a huge turnoff for me. Not that I try to pick out people who I think will disagree with me all the time but I look for back and forth conversations.
If I were to have a conversation with a PhD on their topic of interest, I'd probably simply admit that I know very little on the subject, ask them to teach me more about it, and pay attention. I don't think it needs to get any more complicated than that.
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haji,
Are you an impulsive person?
I hate throwing numbers. I'm not the guy. All I would take away from this is to try and listen more even if you have 1-10 more things to say until the other person's thought is finished and to hear them out. I used to be and partially still am one of those people too. I've been called everything in the book.
Listening does mean more and most people suck at communicating their ideas and listening when you combine them. There are other variables like mood too, sometimes the other person doesn't want to hear what you have to say and they've already made up their mind. ;o
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
>Engrishteacher
I honestly don't think that tactic works on people who have a higher awareness of such ploys.
>Starstruck
I no longer really have a problem with cutting people off (the "when" of speaking). I surely still do it, but it's far less pronounced than before an I am conscious of my transgressions when I make them. I think the far greater challenge for me is the "what" and "why" of speaking.
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On March 14 2012 15:50 thedeadhaji wrote:
(I'm looking at you Treehead, lol)
What can I say - I miss old conversations with philosophy majors... and these days I work with lawyers, accountants and auditors, so.... it's nice to see a deep and less than practical thought every now and then. Your blogs are great for that.
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I`m pretty similar to you in terms of "ideas/things-pop-up-in-my-head-when-hearing-this-and-that" and I have learnt that it`s best for me to force myself to let the person talking right now, finish his speech and then I will respnd. In the end most of what came into my mind as some kind of "flash of thought" won`t matter by the time the other person finished what he was saying and if I was listening carefully, only one or very few points remain important enough to be spoken out. You will see that most of the thoughts are only "kinda" related, but of no specific interest to your interlocutor.
tl,dr: listen - think (throw away all the only "kinda" related stuff") - speak (give the most accurate response possible)
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You lose your train of thought and go off on many tangents because you don't edit yourself.
Gotcha.
Here's an exercise I used to do in a classroom like setting. I fold a piece of paper in half. On the left side I would take notes on what the other person said. On the right side, I would leave my own remarks.
*
I could talk for lengthy periods of time too as everything was up there and I always had a lot to say. By having a visible marker it made things much easier and eventually I didn't have to do that anymore.
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I feel like it depends on how many people you are with. If you are with 4 other people you should be listening 80% of the time. If you are with one other person, you should be listening 50% of the time.
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EPT
