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On March 07 2012 14:48 Forikorder wrote:remember Naniwas insane forcefilds VS DRG i think at winter arena? micro is still a major and game changing thing its jsut noones good enough to use it to its fullest Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 14:47 dartoo wrote:
Fungal and forcefields do remove micro. If your marines get fungaled, you pretty much forget about them cause they're dead. Compare this to dark swarm, where your forced to remove your forces.or lose them. Similarly with forcefields, if a bunch of units get stuck, they're stuck and there's nothing the other player can do to prevent it. There's no competition or a fighting chance given to the other player, and this makes it boring. sure getting hit by fungal removes some micro from a small amount of units, but it causes so much micro to be done with proper splits and positioning and the units can still be microd you can have them FF
The micro in the case of FFs is on one person and frankly is pretty easy. You can say that there are ways around it (splits before hand, etc but he's going to segment some of your army and kill it for free and there's 0 that you can do about it. FF's make the game a lot less interesting imo, even though in the current game they are necessary for the protoss to survive the early game, I think that comes down to poor game design.
TO the ops point, I think that there are similar situations where you need reallly good control but you can swing a battle in your favor if you have insane micro, but i think that those are much rarer, and all situations require less control because of MBS, automine, and unlimited control groups. The advantage to being faster is always going to be less meaningful in a game with easier mechanics.
That being said, I think it's a case of the game being too fast because of chrono/wg, reactors, spawn larvae, etc. You spend so much of your time at 200 supply in a game compared to BW where most of your time was spent between like 80 and 150 food; small unit control was much more important becuase you had less stuff at the same time. That is the reason I believe people feel the game is much easier, rather than the unit's being boring. Sure, you can say BW units were more interesting, and in some cases i would agree, but in others i would not.
I think what made them more "interesting" was the fact that there were so much fewer of them that each one was more important, not that they were each interesting in and of themselves. A zerg, for instance, needs to be so careful with his stuff because larvae is a precious resource in bw, where in star2 you get a billion larvae so you're actually encouraged to throw units away as long as they do some damage. I think if the game lost the macro mechanics you would feel the same tension about control as you did in bw (to a degree)
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On March 07 2012 14:48 Forikorder wrote:
remember Naniwas insane forcefilds VS DRG i think at winter arena?
micro is still a major and game changing thing its jsut noones good enough to use it to its fullest
Please link me this video. Or gif. Or something. I just want to see for myself. I have yet to see any micro in sc2 that I couldn't do.
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On March 07 2012 14:48 Forikorder wrote:remember Naniwas insane forcefilds VS DRG i think at winter arena? micro is still a major and game changing thing its jsut noones good enough to use it to its fullest Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 14:47 dartoo wrote:
Fungal and forcefields do remove micro. If your marines get fungaled, you pretty much forget about them cause they're dead. Compare this to dark swarm, where your forced to remove your forces.or lose them. Similarly with forcefields, if a bunch of units get stuck, they're stuck and there's nothing the other player can do to prevent it. There's no competition or a fighting chance given to the other player, and this makes it boring. sure getting hit by fungal removes some micro from a small amount of units, but it causes so much micro to be done with proper splits and positioning and the units can still be microd you can have them FF
We'll talk in your language:
Compare fungal with storm.
If your marines get fungal'ed, there's nothing you can do about them in 4 seconds.
If your marines get stormed, you micro your ass off to get them the hell out of there.
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On March 07 2012 16:57 Nazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 14:48 Forikorder wrote:remember Naniwas insane forcefilds VS DRG i think at winter arena? micro is still a major and game changing thing its jsut noones good enough to use it to its fullest On March 07 2012 14:47 dartoo wrote:
Fungal and forcefields do remove micro. If your marines get fungaled, you pretty much forget about them cause they're dead. Compare this to dark swarm, where your forced to remove your forces.or lose them. Similarly with forcefields, if a bunch of units get stuck, they're stuck and there's nothing the other player can do to prevent it. There's no competition or a fighting chance given to the other player, and this makes it boring. sure getting hit by fungal removes some micro from a small amount of units, but it causes so much micro to be done with proper splits and positioning and the units can still be microd you can have them FF We'll talk in your language: Compare fungal with storm. If your marines get fungal'ed, there's nothing you can do about them in 4 seconds. If your marines get stormed, you micro your ass off to get them the hell out of there.
but your missing 2 things
if an infester is fungaling then its in range to get sniped
so a fungal can be a time to move forward as well
and you ignoring all the microing that happened before the fungal, all the splitting and dancing that because of fungal happened as teh Zerg tried to outmicro to land a good fungal and the terran or toss tried to outmicro to engage in a situation where he could negate the fungals
exact same deal with storm when you look at it from an actual game play point of view nothing ever gets fungaled to death the root function of fungal isnt really used all that often
and lets continue to compare fungal to storm
if your units gets fungaled you can still micro to save them by moving teh position of your army and making it too impossible for multiple fungals to land jsut like when a storm lands you micro out from it
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Agreed with the OP, I see pro-level BW micro and my jaw drops. I see pro SC2 micro and for the most part it's pretty doable. I just wish there was more difference between poor control (a-moving) and optimal control. Smart-casting/shooting is also a downer in terms of spectator enjoyment.
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On March 07 2012 17:07 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 16:57 Nazza wrote:On March 07 2012 14:48 Forikorder wrote:remember Naniwas insane forcefilds VS DRG i think at winter arena? micro is still a major and game changing thing its jsut noones good enough to use it to its fullest On March 07 2012 14:47 dartoo wrote:
Fungal and forcefields do remove micro. If your marines get fungaled, you pretty much forget about them cause they're dead. Compare this to dark swarm, where your forced to remove your forces.or lose them. Similarly with forcefields, if a bunch of units get stuck, they're stuck and there's nothing the other player can do to prevent it. There's no competition or a fighting chance given to the other player, and this makes it boring. sure getting hit by fungal removes some micro from a small amount of units, but it causes so much micro to be done with proper splits and positioning and the units can still be microd you can have them FF We'll talk in your language: Compare fungal with storm. If your marines get fungal'ed, there's nothing you can do about them in 4 seconds. If your marines get stormed, you micro your ass off to get them the hell out of there. but your missing 2 things if an infester is fungaling then its in range to get sniped so a fungal can be a time to move forward as well and you ignoring all the microing that happened before the fungal, all the splitting and dancing that because of fungal happened as teh Zerg tried to outmicro to land a good fungal and the terran or toss tried to outmicro to engage in a situation where he could negate the fungals exact same deal with storm when you look at it from an actual game play point of view nothing ever gets fungaled to death the root function of fungal isnt really used all that often and lets continue to compare fungal to storm if your units gets fungaled you can still micro to save them by moving teh position of your army and making it too impossible for multiple fungals to land jsut like when a storm lands you micro out from it
Yes, but if that is the only form of micro that SC2 has, then it becomes a game of "snipe me, snipe you" or "who can spread out an army". And we were talking about what happens after the ability happens.
Let's suppose the mothership's vortex ability was reworked so that it starts off tiny, but expands at a certain rate. As the opposing player, you would move the army away from said location.
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On March 07 2012 18:24 Nazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 17:07 Forikorder wrote:On March 07 2012 16:57 Nazza wrote:On March 07 2012 14:48 Forikorder wrote:remember Naniwas insane forcefilds VS DRG i think at winter arena? micro is still a major and game changing thing its jsut noones good enough to use it to its fullest On March 07 2012 14:47 dartoo wrote:
Fungal and forcefields do remove micro. If your marines get fungaled, you pretty much forget about them cause they're dead. Compare this to dark swarm, where your forced to remove your forces.or lose them. Similarly with forcefields, if a bunch of units get stuck, they're stuck and there's nothing the other player can do to prevent it. There's no competition or a fighting chance given to the other player, and this makes it boring. sure getting hit by fungal removes some micro from a small amount of units, but it causes so much micro to be done with proper splits and positioning and the units can still be microd you can have them FF We'll talk in your language: Compare fungal with storm. If your marines get fungal'ed, there's nothing you can do about them in 4 seconds. If your marines get stormed, you micro your ass off to get them the hell out of there. but your missing 2 things if an infester is fungaling then its in range to get sniped so a fungal can be a time to move forward as well and you ignoring all the microing that happened before the fungal, all the splitting and dancing that because of fungal happened as teh Zerg tried to outmicro to land a good fungal and the terran or toss tried to outmicro to engage in a situation where he could negate the fungals exact same deal with storm when you look at it from an actual game play point of view nothing ever gets fungaled to death the root function of fungal isnt really used all that often and lets continue to compare fungal to storm if your units gets fungaled you can still micro to save them by moving teh position of your army and making it too impossible for multiple fungals to land jsut like when a storm lands you micro out from it Yes, but if that is the only form of micro that SC2 has, then it becomes a game of "snipe me, snipe you" or "who can spread out an army".
good thing it isnt i already made alot of examples of important micro earlier in the thread
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On March 07 2012 14:10 TheButtonmen wrote:
You use a weird example for showcasing reduced need for micro (Bio, Stalkers, Roaches, Hellions) as Bio in Sc2 requires a lot more micro then it did in BW due to the addition of things such as fungal, banelings and forcefields, stalkers have a much higher micro potential then Dragoons did due to blink and their high movespeed, roaches requires the same (if not more) micro then hydras did in BW due to burrow move and the addition of forcefields. Hellions require far more positioning then vultures did simply because of how their attack works.
We commonly see players completely turn what should have been a build order loss (such as unscouted proxy 2 gate vs 1 racks fast exand) into a completely one sided win simply by out playing their opponents.
I really think this is just nostalgia talking or you need to explain yourself better. -shrug-
Ugh, this sounds awfully like you've seen or heard about BW units and sort of cuts to the heart of what I think is wrong with SC2 micro. Like is vaguely outlined in the OP SC2 micro is much more pre-canned than its BW counterpart - at least at this stage.
Dragoons vs Stalkers just isn't even close. With Stalkers you can do the pre-canned blink micro or walk while shooting, there's really not much else. With Dragoons you're target firing mines, Seige Tanks and Lurkers with sub-groups of units, making decisions about which 'goons (and if) to push up to snipe tanks and making decisions about how to suicide 'goons effectively in mine traps to minimise the damage. Plus 'goons are retarded. What does SC2 have that's anything like Goon/Reaver vs Goon/Reaver involving Stalkers? There's no predetermined way to win that fight. You can spread your 'goons to minimise Scarab damage. You can try to snipe the Shuttle. You can try to snipe the Reaver(s). You can rather maximise your dps vs the opponents 'goons. And every battle the best idea is different and during that battle it might change. Compare that to Stalker/Colossi vs Stalker Colossi?
+ Show Spoiler +People must be sick of seeing this in these threads by now:
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On March 07 2012 19:02 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 14:10 TheButtonmen wrote:
You use a weird example for showcasing reduced need for micro (Bio, Stalkers, Roaches, Hellions) as Bio in Sc2 requires a lot more micro then it did in BW due to the addition of things such as fungal, banelings and forcefields, stalkers have a much higher micro potential then Dragoons did due to blink and their high movespeed, roaches requires the same (if not more) micro then hydras did in BW due to burrow move and the addition of forcefields. Hellions require far more positioning then vultures did simply because of how their attack works.
We commonly see players completely turn what should have been a build order loss (such as unscouted proxy 2 gate vs 1 racks fast exand) into a completely one sided win simply by out playing their opponents.
I really think this is just nostalgia talking or you need to explain yourself better. -shrug- Ugh, this sounds awfully like you've seen or heard about BW units and sort of cuts to the heart of what I think is wrong with SC2 micro. Like is vaguely outlined in the OP SC2 micro is much more pre-canned than its BW counterpart - at least at this stage. Dragoons vs Stalkers just isn't even close. With Stalkers you can do the pre-canned blink micro or walk while shooting, there's really not much else. With Dragoons you're target firing mines, Seige Tanks and Lurkers with sub-groups of units, making decisions about which 'goons (and if) to push up to snipe tanks and making decisions about how to suicide 'goons effectively in mine traps to minimise the damage. Plus 'goons are retarded. What does SC2 have that's anything like Goon/Reaver vs Goon/Reaver involving Stalkers? There's no predetermined way to win that fight. You can spread your 'goons to minimise Scarab damage. You can try to snipe the Shuttle. You can try to snipe the Reaver(s). You can rather maximise your dps vs the opponents 'goons. And every battle the best idea is different and during that battle it might change. Compare that to Stalker/Colossi vs Stalker Colossi? + Show Spoiler +
BW has had tons of time to develop the metagame and players with insane practice schedule to get those things
do you really think a year after BW was invented people were doing goons VS reavers like you described?
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On March 07 2012 15:47 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 14:48 Forikorder wrote:remember Naniwas insane forcefilds VS DRG i think at winter arena? micro is still a major and game changing thing its jsut noones good enough to use it to its fullest On March 07 2012 14:47 dartoo wrote:
Fungal and forcefields do remove micro. If your marines get fungaled, you pretty much forget about them cause they're dead. Compare this to dark swarm, where your forced to remove your forces.or lose them. Similarly with forcefields, if a bunch of units get stuck, they're stuck and there's nothing the other player can do to prevent it. There's no competition or a fighting chance given to the other player, and this makes it boring. sure getting hit by fungal removes some micro from a small amount of units, but it causes so much micro to be done with proper splits and positioning and the units can still be microd you can have them FF The micro in the case of FFs is on one person and frankly is pretty easy. You can say that there are ways around it (splits before hand, etc but he's going to segment some of your army and kill it for free and there's 0 that you can do about it. FF's make the game a lot less interesting imo, even though in the current game they are necessary for the protoss to survive the early game, I think that comes down to poor game design. TO the ops point, I think that there are similar situations where you need reallly good control but you can swing a battle in your favor if you have insane micro, but i think that those are much rarer, and all situations require less control because of MBS, automine, and unlimited control groups. The advantage to being faster is always going to be less meaningful in a game with easier mechanics. That being said, I think it's a case of the game being too fast because of chrono/wg, reactors, spawn larvae, etc. You spend so much of your time at 200 supply in a game compared to BW where most of your time was spent between like 80 and 150 food; small unit control was much more important becuase you had less stuff at the same time. That is the reason I believe people feel the game is much easier, rather than the unit's being boring. Sure, you can say BW units were more interesting, and in some cases i would agree, but in others i would not. I think what made them more "interesting" was the fact that there were so much fewer of them that each one was more important, not that they were each interesting in and of themselves. A zerg, for instance, needs to be so careful with his stuff because larvae is a precious resource in bw, where in star2 you get a billion larvae so you're actually encouraged to throw units away as long as they do some damage. I think if the game lost the macro mechanics you would feel the same tension about control as you did in bw (to a degree)
I think you hit on a few good points here. I'd like to add that the limited unit selection forced larger armies to behave like many smaller armies, and therefore meant that the more attention you could give to different parts of your army, the better it'd do. It's really really hard to properly control a 200/200 army in BW, but in SC2 not only can you control it, you can do all the same micro as with a handful of units - stutter stepping, kiting, forming arcs/spreading. Unlimited selection is a good thing overall, but there has to be some other dimension of mechanical control to make up for everything being so damn easy.
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my honest opinion is that if you don't feel like you're getting much difference out of using your units or not, you're probably just not being very creative with them, OR you're control just isn't very good. or both. i hope that's not a sentence that results in you having a bruised ego.
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Yes, exactly. I referenced this explicitly when I wrote my second article on The Philosophy of Design. Sean describes precisely what's going on and I just can't seem to find a flaw in his argumentation. It really does sum up the chief concern I have.
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On March 08 2012 02:29 Angel_ wrote:
my honest opinion is that if you don't feel like you're getting much difference out of using your units or not, you're probably just not being very creative with them, OR you're control just isn't very good. or both. i hope that's not a sentence that results in you having a bruised ego.
If this was BW, I'd agree. However, I just don't see pros doing anything different than what I do. There's nothing that I see and go "wow, I need to practice to be able to do that!" I see that ALL the time in BW. I NEVER see that in SC2.
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Yeah. They're pretty boring alright.
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EPT
