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Winning vs Improving - Why SC2 ladder is broken - Page 2

Blogs > hoby2000
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Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
February 15 2012 02:05 GMT
#21
First off, all the ladder systems out there evaluate you on whether you win and nothing else. If you're trying to get people to focus on developing their skills broadly rather than finding the easiest path to win, you'd have to innovate a lot more than to reach for another ladder system like iccup's.

Second: Competitive situations are emotionally-charged, and human beings are experts at rationalization. Different matchmaking won't change the fact that many players find losing to be a blow to their egos and that they sometimes react by lashing out at any available target -- usually their opponent, the game, the game's designers, people who play this or that race, or themselves.

In both the iccup world and SC2, people seize on their ratings or leagues as a measure of the worth of their opinions about the game relative to others'. Any ladder system will have this problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
February 15 2012 02:16 GMT
#22
Sensationalist title. Ladder is definitely not perfect, but it's no where near broken. Ten paragraphs later the substance of the thread arises; should probably intro better.

The ladder's job isn't to accurately take into account every aspect of a player and rate them. It's based on whether you win or lose, and no system exists that will do what you describe. Also, you take for granted that you rarely chain queue the same person at leagues below high masters. A platinum player can get a queue against a masters and win, and it's very likely he would lose the next 9. Player's DO have to accrue wins against players who have made wins vs other players within the same relative rating. It's good enough for what it needs to do.

It's normal for people to think they're the shit, even if they got there through cheesing. It's the internet. Life moves on.
hoby2000
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States918 Posts
February 15 2012 03:11 GMT
#23
On February 15 2012 11:05 Lysenko wrote:
First off, all the ladder systems out there evaluate you on whether you win and nothing else. If you're trying to get people to focus on developing their skills broadly rather than finding the easiest path to win, you'd have to innovate a lot more than to reach for another ladder system like iccup's.

Second: Competitive situations are emotionally-charged, and human beings are experts at rationalization. Different matchmaking won't change the fact that many players find losing to be a blow to their egos and that they sometimes react by lashing out at any available target -- usually their opponent, the game, the game's designers, people who play this or that race, or themselves.

In both the iccup world and SC2, people seize on their ratings or leagues as a measure of the worth of their opinions about the game relative to others'. Any ladder system will have this problem.


I'm not asking for different matchmaking - I'm asking for the elimination of automated matchmaking. I also said that I didn't think iCCup's system was the best, but it's the best that I know of, and I am open to suggestions. I personally like the iCCup system because I think it gives people a different attitude about playing the game. If you got on iCCup, asked to play someone who was your rank, then just did the cheesiest build possible, they would react a lot differently because they WILLINGLY said they would play you.

The second point I agree with, and have no response for. I admit that it's a choice on the human side, but like the first point, I think the environment that automated matchmaking makes people more willing to BM or not realize they're not actually improving.
A lesson without pain is meaningless for nothing can be gained without giving something in return.
hoby2000
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States918 Posts
February 15 2012 03:17 GMT
#24
On February 15 2012 11:16 Tyrant0 wrote:
Sensationalist title. Ladder is definitely not perfect, but it's no where near broken. Ten paragraphs later the substance of the thread arises; should probably intro better.

The ladder's job isn't to accurately take into account every aspect of a player and rate them. It's based on whether you win or lose, and no system exists that will do what you describe. Also, you take for granted that you rarely chain queue the same person at leagues below high masters. A platinum player can get a queue against a masters and win, and it's very likely he would lose the next 9. Player's DO have to accrue wins against players who have made wins vs other players within the same relative rating. It's good enough for what it needs to do.

It's normal for people to think they're the shit, even if they got there through cheesing. It's the internet. Life moves on.


Indeed. I try to avoid sensationalism, but I'm writing a blog which is full of opinions and emotions, so I just said to myself "Fuck it! I'll go for the attention grabber." You have to admit it worked, because you're now responding. I also have a problem of going on long explanations, and I do not disagree I could have put it more simply. Perhaps with the modern age I should realize that people's attention spans are pretty short...

For your 2nd point, I agree that no ladder system will actually exist that can directly translate rating into skill, but I don't really want that. I just want a system that allows people to feel not just more confident about their current rating, but also gives them this feeling that they don't have to push towards a league promotion. The iCCup system, like someone said before while flawed, gives you the ability to go from D+ to C- multiple times in one day. I don't think I've ever heard of someone going from Gold to Silver to Gold in one day. Most promotions take at least 20 or 30 matches. I suppose if you played 100 matches in a day, then it might... but as it stands, leagues do nothing more but give people a medal to ogle at.

Also, league promotions are relative to their populations, which is another huge mistake in my opinion. That's why, once more, the iCCup system is great because it doesn't rely on a certain amount of people being this or that league. It just matters on how well you've done against other opponents, and has nothing to do with how anyone you have never played has done.
A lesson without pain is meaningless for nothing can be gained without giving something in return.
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