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So I've been thinking about my existence, and I am mildly troubled by a certain quality of it.
I'm not so much troubled that the world is a giant simulation or that my subjective experience is a dream that I might one day be rudely awakened from. I'm also not so much afraid of whether my subjective experience of reality corresponds to the same reality that is subjectively perceived by other people. I'm also less concerned about whether or not there actually exist other people or whether they are figments of my imagination.
I am, however, somewhat concerned as to whether I am the person I think I am. Let me clarify this dilemma with a simple thought experiment.
Consider Mr. Bob who enters a room. Bob takes a nap and wakes up. Bob walks out of the room.
Typically we would consider the Bob who entered the room to be roughly the same Bob who exited the room. Bob remembers walking into the room being named Bob. As such he is still Bob.
Now consider Mr. Joe who enters a room. Joe takes a nap. While Joe is sleeping, Joe's memories are erased by sadistic aliens and replaced by Bob's memories. Joe wakes up and walks out of the room.
Now Joe remembers walking into the room being named Bob. As such he is still Bob. Only, he isn't.
As far as the thought experiment goes, the person who walks out of the room has no way of knowing whether he walked in as Joe or as Bob, since either way he walks out remembering that he walked in as Bob.
Now this example is a bit far fetched since I have no reason to believe we have the technology for comprehensive implantation of false memories indistinguishable from real ones. However, the frailty of my memory makes it much harder for me to accept the continuity of my existence. I forget to set alarms, for example, that I distinctly remember setting. Bob set the alarm, but Joe slept through it.
In other cases, I would get a haircut or do laundry and a few days later have lost all recollection of having done it until seeing my hair in the mirror, or noticing that my laundry hamper was empty. In these cases, I don't think that the person who sees the empty laundry hamper with surprise and the person who did the laundry can be considered the same person... at least not in the same capacity that I consider myself to be identical to myself at any infinitesimally separated points in time.
But what about forgotten laundry causes a gap in existential continuity that the blink of an eye does not? Nothing, really.
In fact, the thought experiment could just have easily been:
Consider Mr. Bob who enters a room. He blinks and then walks out of the room.
In an alternate reality, the room is rigged with a camera that will place Bob in a stasis the moment he first blinks. Joe is brought in and the moment his eyes are closed, he is put into a stasis as well. Now Bob is disposed of, but his memories are, again, implanted into the stasis'd Joe. Joe is removed from stasis, and opens his eyes, his last memory being that he blinked. Joe walks out of the room.
If an implanted memory is truly indistinguishable from a "real" one, then again isn't Joe now, in fact, Bob?
Can it be that what I perceive to be my current "self" is just the processing of some message from a past self, physically identical to my current self or not, in the form of an unverifiable memory?
If so, then message to self: get some sleep.
TL;DR I've been running away from the Organization for a long time, but this time they sent me a peace offering. One last job, and I'm free of them for good. All I need to do is eliminate Bob.
*cut scene* From level shot at rooftop, pan up to Joe's face as he lowers his eye behind the scope of a sniper rifle.
*cut scene* POV from Joe's eye's, finds Bob standing on a balcony looking out at the beautiful blue ocean. Steadies cross hairs on the back of Bob's head. Joe pulls the trigger.
*cut scene* Pan back to rooftop frontal shot of what appear's to be Joe's face, disengaging eye from scope of Sniper rifle. Is actually Bob's face.
*cut scene* Balcony, Camera from right: man lying chest down, face pointed left in a puddle of his own blood. Dolly Camera to the left and zoom to reveal man's face. Eyes open, exit wound through forehead, is the lifeless face of Joe.
*Snap to black*
 
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I don't think you know what the word clarify means.
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^^ lol
it doesnt matter is the answer.
The hint is that its all about purpose. Purpose is all about getting to an end state which presupposes that you are not already at it. It works the same internally imo ... you are NOT the person you think you are because the person you think you are is the person you are becoming. If you want existentialism .. Heidegger described man as moving forward in time looking backwards to choose his direction. Which is kinda what you are describing (the point being that the present is something that is not yet - but you have to assume is in order to have your argument). I think existentialism is a load of bollocks in terms of being true btw, but is interesting in an attempt to intuitively understand which may be the only way with this stuff .. to have a feeling.
As for who you really are ... all that matters in that question is what other people think. Moreover you have totally abstracted mind from body when in reality they are all organism. You are just describing the liars dilema of realising that your internal representation is not the same as your external one in other people yet have presupposed that they shuold be the same. The purposes of the different representations is different though. One is to achieve goals and the other is to predict behaviour which are opposites in a way (they are different in many many other ways also - and can be separated into many different dualism also).
The point is that everything really is kind of empty when you reason about it - because you are using reason and the vast majority of stuff is not rational and cannot be thought about rationally. Eg When you start thinking about a table all you end up with is a collection of properties and no longer have a table - you need real stuff.
You are only asking questions that appear to make sense. you are applying ideas way outside of their origional use and so enter a world of broken analogies where nothing can be measured. If you cant measure it then you really cant reason about it in a way that will end up with a statements that is more than valid or consistent. You somehow want to go from reasoning about something to having soemthing that is real. It doesnt work like that imo.
Just my tuppence. Most people disagree with me but none can hold their argument either - then they go back to work.
IE by thinking about this stuff and breaking it down you have implicitly destroyed yoru ability to put it together into a whole again because each tiem you break down you are abstracting and loosing everythign else that you are not looking at. In as general terms as possible, you have taken something incomprehensible (infinite) and made it comprehensible (by breaking into finite chunks) yet want to build it back up ... but you cant make infinity out of finite chunks. (which is short is what i think everyone forgot in religion) ... i like the way you resorted to cut scenes tho lol ... all kinda appropiate.
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Hey, my existential dilemmas all involve aliens erasing my memories too.
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I didn't know this was some sort of movie plot thing. So when you were going through your whole explanation I was thinking to myself, "I don't think the problem is that complicated...." 
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So are you writing a movie script or a book ?
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Have you been watching too much Darker Than Black?Looks like you're a Doll!
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your wasting your time thinking about such things. I used to be the same way until I realized it was worthless and would only bring me stress.
I compare it to one conversation I had with a friend. He asked me what my plan was if zombies were to talk over the world. I told him I had no idea because thinking about such a ridiculous thing is pointless. He looked at me as if I was crazy and couldn't figure out why I hadn't planned it out.
So basically you can plot a perfect plan in case zombies take over the world. Or use all that time and energy thinking about something that's relevant and matters.
This was meant to be helpful not judgemental. I apologize if it sounded judgemental since it kind of is judgemental.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
man.. are you serious? Hope you don't have schiz or something... sounds like you are thinking Wayyyy too deep.
Life is this: you are born. You grow up, you work, you enjoy life's ups and downs, you die. You meet God and He judges you according to that which you have done in this life. That is all
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All right, seems like you've been under a lot of stress lately and now you're getting fooled by your own brain in response ^^
However, the frailty of my memory makes it much harder for me to accept the continuity of my existence. I forget to set alarms, for example, that I distinctly remember setting. Bob set the alarm, but Joe slept through it.
Inhibitory Neurons. You've been going to bed a little later then you used to? Well, your sleep rythm gets fucked up by this and the alarm sets off while you're in a slow-wave sleep phase and the inhibitory neurons make you switch it off but keep you from getting up because you're still so tired. Happens to me all the time -.-
In other cases, I would get a haircut or do laundry and a few days later have lost all recollection of having done it until seeing my hair in the mirror, or noticing that my laundry hamper was empty. In these cases, I don't think that the person who sees the empty laundry hamper with surprise and the person who did the laundry can be considered the same person... at least not in the same capacity that I consider myself to be identical to myself at any infinitesimally separated points in time.
Yes, they can. Ever noticed that far-away-look on another persons face when you told him about something that didn't interest him? They will remember you talking, but not what you said. It doesn't mean anything to them, so does laundry to you - it's just laundry and you've probably been thinking about more important things while doing it. This process of thought overlays the simple laundry-fact.
In an alternate reality, the room is rigged with a camera that will place Bob in a stasis the moment he first blinks. Joe is brought in and the moment his eyes are closed, he is put into a stasis as well. Now Bob is disposed of, but his memories are, again, implanted into the stasis'd Joe. Joe is removed from stasis, and opens his eyes, his last memory being that he blinked. Joe walks out of the room.
Nice one. Bob is disposed of? Where do you store Joe's memory then? And another thing: do Joe and Bob look identical or why doesn't anyone, like, I don't know, their mommas notice they've been body-memory switched?! Come on boy. Seriously. That sounds more like this phenomenon: Bob walks into a room thinking about going out and buying cake. Suddenly he stops - where did he put his keys? After an hour of frantic search, Bob has his keys, but forgot why he wanted to find them in the first place. So what was he thinking about when he entered the room again...?
RIGHT: Joe stole his memory and the cake is a lie^^
WRONG: One event that seemed more important overlaid another process of thought. What's the big deal?
Can it be that what I perceive to be my current "self" is just the processing of some message from a past self, physically identical to my current self or not, in the form of an unverifiable memory?
Oh, hell no. Please not this one. Who were you, a red headed witch that was burned for using magic on men? What you perceive is a small slipping of your attention. Are you thinking about things that bother you IRL or emotionally, like family, university, job, a girl...? That seems the most reasonable to me.
TL;DR I've been running away from the Organization for a long time, but this time they sent me a peace offering. One last job, and I'm free of them for good. All I need to do is eliminate Bob.
Yeah right. Have a cookie. It makes a nice movie with the cut scenes, but IRL...get some sleep, and if you can, don't set any alarms. Tire yourself out physically before, go to the gym, run around the house till you're ready to drop...have a bath afterwards and then sleep as long as you want to. Should solve your problems.
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I used to worry about this stuff all the time. Then I heard a quote—can't remember who said it—that existential angst is a luxury.
In other words, had you been born at any other time in the human race, you existence would've NEVER been pondered in this way. It would've been impossible – you would be struggling just to survive.
So realize that the fact that you're having these issues actually means your life is unbelievably good.
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'It doesn't matter' is a pretty good answer to the simulation hypothesis. If that was somehow the case then you have no alternative source of reality, so it doesn't really matter. Also, even without this artifice, you are in the same situation regardless. You are a human dependent on your finite and flawed senses to perceive the universe. That perception will in turn be finite and flawed. This is why empiricism must be rejected as a metaphysical basis of ultimate truth. So, yes, you are a captive to your perception whether it's some alien or just the constraints of your optic nerve.
I have to say that the 'changing self' theory often seems like semantics. Of course you aren't the same person you were 5 years ago, but I roughly feel like the same person as I did 5 minutes ago. You have intimate knowledge of that person 5 years ago, and it evolved into what you are today. Gold and silver may be used to make jewelry. They are no longer shapeless ingots, but the components of them are still there- minus some impurities and a few additions.
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Here's how to find out for sure: Hide a note from yourself somewhere where you know you will find it later. It's important that you do this in a room protected from their psionic tracking powers. You can usually have this done with the help of a very powerful shaman. The aliens will suspect something is awry when they see you contacting the shaman, so it's important that you pretend to stumble upon the shaman by accident and are just curious to see what he can do. Once you are in the room protected by the psychic force-field, write a letter to yourself that says:
"Hello,
If you are reading this, and you are confused about it's contents, it means that your memory has been switched with that of another. Your name is [whatever the hell your name is] and you were born on [whatever the hell your birthday is]. You enjoy [Ugh, I don't even want to know what you're going to put here] and you are in love with [person/thing]. If this all seems to be in order, please burn this piece of paper at once. If you can't remember writing this paper, or any of it's content seems 'wrong', or out of place, then you are in grave... well... not danger... but you know, something weird is going on. Let me be blunt: your memories have been altered or replaced by aliens. Whether this is normal, or there is malicious intent behind it, you do not yet know. What you do know is that if you are not yourself, then that's pretty messed up, because you don't like people messing with your life, even superpowerful aliens. That is not cool.
Then, you must find the key to their mothership and disable their manipulation orb. To find the key, you must find it's Guardian. You will know him when you see him. But right now, they are watching. Run."
Next, put the letter into your pocket, and later, use some slide-of-hand techniques to mix it into your mail without the aliens noticing. Mutter to yourself "Eh, this is all junk." and toss it down onto the counter. Then pick up one of the piece of junk mail and go "Wait, I'm qualified for a free 10,000 dollar prize if I sign up for some magazine that I've never heard of? Score!" and bring all your mail to your room and drop it in a weird place. Pretend to be distracted by something, and give all your attention to that.
Then go to bed.
When you wake up, your alternate self will see the mail in a weird spot, and say "Hm, that's odd... when did I put that there?" and will look through the mail. He will see a letter addressed to him and be like "Allo, what's all dis!?" and rip it open ravenously like a vulture ripping into the carcass of dead rabbit. After reading it's contents, the alternate you will come to the realization that there has been a memory switch. Then aliens will now be aware of your plan, and will attempt to silence you by making you 'disappear'. You have to run for your life and avoid cellphones at all costs. The aliens can teleport from place to place by using cellphones.
Now go, young one... discover the truth...
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Just use Occam's razor. You are you, that's the simplest explanation, therefore most likely the correct one. You can try to think of scenarios where you are someone else, but it is similar to making mathematical proofs that 1 = 2, you are probably making a mistake or dividing by zero somewhere.
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Next time don't take acid and watch documentaries man. It's terrible for you.
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To your last question:
Can it be that what I perceive to be my current "self" is just the processing of some message from a past self, physically identical to my current self or not, in the form of an unverifiable memory?
I think, yes. (with some technical small extensions).
Screw the haters, this is an awesome subject to think about.
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I think the answer is to keep a hidden camera with you recording constantly!
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In reality, going by your account name, you are an alligator-an animated one, at that, owned by a pink pony that will throw you a party if you are truly suffering from a devastating and deep trauma such as this.
In reality, you're overthinking. Just get on with life and do whatever
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On January 21 2012 22:07 MrTortoise wrote:
You are only asking questions that appear to make sense.
Is that the existential way of saying, you're wrong?
It only actually matters who you are now.
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Another thing to consider is the notion of perpetual conscience. If your mind is tampered with, or if memories are inserted into your head, your conciseness is being interrupted so the strand thats keeps every version of you together snaps and for all intensive purposes your point of view, ie you, will die. It'll be like rebooting a computer, it may be the same device, but not the same lapse of awareness. So you don't need to worry that much about losing your identity because if you do you wont be around to mourn the loss of self.
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EPT
