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I've owned 6 dogs over the course of my lifetime and own a pet care business.
On January 13 2012 07:05 Chill wrote:
Isn't that called "crating"? Lots of people crate their dogs when they're at work and when they sleep. It's not cruel. Lots of people use puppy pads to let their dog go to the washroom indoors. Sounds like your brother is just using the cheaper version, newspaper.
Advice? Talk to them and tell them there are enough people at home that they can leave the dog out of the crate during the day. If there aren't enough people at home, and you don't have time to take care of it, then let it go. It sounds like it's fine.
Crating is a very common training technique. But I recommend against anything more than 6 hours at a time for a healthy, well trained dog. Depending on size, age, and breed 4 hours might be the reasonable limit. Puppy pads are also relatively common (and newspaper is a fine substitute) but you have to clean it up asap. Otherwise that's gross for you and the dog.
There are some details left out of the post - how big is the dog? how big is the cage in comparison? How long exactly is the dog left in the cage?
It sounds like your brother and his girl are stupid, but I don't think you have any official legal grounds to call this animal cruelty (I certainly would call it that, however). My advice would be to either try and convince him to give it up or just ask to take it for a walk once day whenever you can.
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On January 13 2012 08:19 darkscream wrote:
I hate threads about animals (or discussions about animals in general) because people anthromorphize dogs, pretend they have feelings like people. A lot of times, responses actually claim animals to have the same rights/expectations for care that people receive.
Does the dog get to eat? Is the dog able to avoid being near his own shit? Is the dog ever in pain? Is the dog clean and groomed? These are the things that define abuse. "Being lonely for 20 hours a day" might be neglect, but definitely not abuse.
I'm not saying the owners are awesome dog owners, quite the opposite. But for it to be abuse(as in, enough to have a third party come and take them away) there has to be suffering and actual health risk.
If I read the OP correctly, this isn't the issue of indoor animal or not. This is a dog being kept in a dog-sized cage for 20 hours a day and walked once a week.
Does the dog get to eat? Yes, at least I hope so.
Is the dog able to avoid being near his own shit? No, as the OP stated.
Is the dog ever in pain? Judging by the tone of the OP, the owners wouldn't know.
Is the dog clean and groomed? Judging by the tone of the OP, possibly yes but probably no.
On January 13 2012 08:19 darkscream wrote:
There's nothing wrong with being an indoor animal, cats receive that treatment all the time. That in itself is not abuse.
AFAIK most cats aren't kept in crates all the time. In fact, most cats get to go in and out of the house whenever they want. I haven't even heard of cat crating before, the only time I've seen cats in cages are kittens at a pet store or at an animal shelter.
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Calgary25996 Posts
I think the OP is exaggerating. First it's being walked twice, then once. My parents' dog never gets walked, it's let outside to do its business and then comes back in. It's a very happy dog. Some people in my building have dogs. They live in small apartments and only get taken down once in awhile to use the washroom. That's unfortunate but not cruel.
If the dog is really locked up for 20 hours a day because of laziness, then you should be speaking to your brother inside of writing about it here. If it's being locked up for 16 hours (8 for work, 8 for sleep out of necessity) then that's fine.
I really think you just don't like your brother. Look at the way you write about them. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. If there is a real problem, don't avoid it because you don't want to talk to your family. Come on.
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On January 13 2012 08:27 Not_Computer wrote:
Is the dog able to avoid being near his own shit? No, as the OP stated.
On January 13 2012 06:59 jjun212 wrote:
So they keep the dog in a cage basically all day long, locked inside their room too
......
they expect him to do his 'business' on some newspaper near the kitchen.
You see what I mean? People aren't even reading the OP. People get hysterical about animals. When in fact this thread is mostly about the OP's inability to manage living with family.
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Calgary25996 Posts
On January 13 2012 08:35 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:27 Not_Computer wrote:
Is the dog able to avoid being near his own shit? No, as the OP stated. Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 06:59 jjun212 wrote:
So they keep the dog in a cage basically all day long, locked inside their room too
......
they expect him to do his 'business' on some newspaper near the kitchen.
You see what I mean? People aren't even reading the OP. People get hysterical about animals. When in fact this thread is mostly about the OP's inability to manage living with family.
That's what I got from it too. It sounds like the brother is just trying to live his life and the OP doesn't talk to him and just judges from him afar. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into it.
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On January 13 2012 08:35 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:27 Not_Computer wrote:
Is the dog able to avoid being near his own shit? No, as the OP stated. Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 06:59 jjun212 wrote:
So they keep the dog in a cage basically all day long, locked inside their room too
......
they expect him to do his 'business' on some newspaper near the kitchen.
You see what I mean? People aren't even reading the OP. People get hysterical about animals. When in fact this thread is mostly about the OP's inability to manage living with family.
I will see your out-of-context quote and raise you quoting your same quote in context.
On January 13 2012 06:59 jjun212 wrote:
So they keep the dog in a cage basically all day long, locked inside their room too, so it's not like I can go in and open the cage and let him out.
They walk him like once a week and other than that, they expect him to do his 'business' on some newspaper near the kitchen.
So the dog is kept in a cage all day long. The cage is kept in a room that is locked all day long. The reason the OP stated this is so he could illustrate why he hasn't done anything to help the dog yet.
Yes, when the dog is outside of the crate it can do its business on some newspaper near the kitchen. However, the issue here is that the dog is usually NOT outside of the crate. What I was talking about is keeping the dog outside of the cage to do his business on some newspaper at ALL times.
Of course all of this doesn't mean anything if the OP is exaggerating.
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On January 13 2012 08:19 darkscream wrote:Does the dog get to eat? Is the dog able to avoid being near his own shit? Is the dog ever in pain? Is the dog clean and groomed? These are the things that define abuse. "Being lonely for 20 hours a day" might be neglect, but definitely not abuse..
Dogs are pack animals.Feelings or not, they NEED companions around.
As I said, it is okay to leave them alone though. It's sometimes okay to do that for 8 hours a day, even(thats the LIMIT though and should be avoided as much as possible!), but 20 hours a day is SIMPLY TOO MUCH!
This isn't proper animal keeping. It's even worse.
I'm not saying the owners are awesome dog owners, quite the opposite. But for it to be abuse(as in, enough to have a third party come and take them away) there has to be suffering and actual health risk.
Health risk? Maybe not, we don't know for sure since OP doesn't give all the information needed, but I bet my arse that this guy is suffering. And since anything could happen in 20 hours a day I wouldn't be so sure about the "no health risk".
A lot of times, responses actually claim animals to have the same rights/expectations for care that people receive.
Not at all. At least not me.
But there are rules for animal keeping and you have to treat animals in a certain way to be allowed to take care of them, otherwise you're just doing it wrong.. Those guys clearly lack the basics here.
And yes, I'm presuming that the OP told the truth about that. Otherwise what I said doesn't count, because as I already said:
It's okay to leave your dog alone, to treat it in certain ways etc as long as it doesn't go too far. There are limits for everything.
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Theres many dogs in the pound, caged 24 hours a day, with nobody to take care of them.
Trust me, at least they are making one dog less miserable.
If you kidnap the dog, its harder to give it away than you think. Why do you think so many animals still don't have a home.
If you feel so bad for the dog, offer to take care of it yourself.
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These stories make me glad my family domesticated my dog properly. We can leave her alone at home most of the day and she's just fine. When we get back she's really happy and asks for the door so we leave her outside in the yard.
It's fenced though. Couldn't walk her without a leash, she runs at cars... stupid sheepdog, it's a car!
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Dogs shouldn't be in their crates for more than 4-5 hours at a time. A good test -- when you open the crate, a well-trained dog should go in voluntarily. If you crate train properly, the dog thinks of the crate as his cave.
Leaving a dog in his crate for longer than 4-5 hours at a time is damaging to the dogs social skills and can result in separation anxiety, biting and general bad manners. Before you accuse me of being a hippy -- dogs with separation anxiety literally scream and yelp when away from their owners. It is in a dog-owners best interest to treat his or her dog with respect -- they repay it with good behavior.
There is no point in having a dog if you aren't willng to do the minimal things that it takes to care for it. As for saying that dogs do not have emotions....they may not have the same sophisticated emotions that humans display, but dogs definitely can feel negative feelings other than pain.
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On January 13 2012 07:39 SnetteL wrote:
Too much people get pets they can't handle. Standards are incredibly low for this day and age...
this. Its very sad for the dog. They've got a living thing they're treating like a toy or other household object. You need to do the right thing and call animal protection.
On January 13 2012 08:19 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:52 KeksX wrote:On January 13 2012 07:39 OmniEulogy wrote:
I have to agree with Chill. There's no abuse in what they are doing at all. They are terrible at cleaning up after it apparently but just ask them if you can watch/walk it while they are gone. I'm kinda wondering why you haven't already if you like the dog so much... 20 hours in a cage. Walking with him once a week, otherwise has to shit in the house. Possibly very bad hygiene... Sorry, but how can you not call this abuse? Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:14 Not_Computer wrote:Speaking of which, leaving a baby in a crib 20+ hours a day = animal cruelty? It's alright as long as you change the diapers right?  There's nothing wrong with being an indoor animal, cats receive that treatment all the time. That in itself is not abuse. I hate threads about animals (or discussions about animals in general) because people anthromorphize dogs, pretend they have feelings like people. A lot of times, responses actually claim animals to have the same rights/expectations for care that people receive. Does the dog get to eat? Is the dog able to avoid being near his own shit? Is the dog ever in pain? Is the dog clean and groomed? These are the things that define abuse. "Being lonely for 20 hours a day" might be neglect, but definitely not abuse. I'm not saying the owners are awesome dog owners, quite the opposite. But for it to be abuse(as in, enough to have a third party come and take them away) there has to be suffering and actual health risk.
oh wow. you are seriously messed up. having been a long time animal trainer, caretaker, and pet owner, and having a minor in psych, I can tell you, these are animals with feelings and emotions. I go so far as to say they basically have the mentality of 5 year old human children. No, they are not humans, but they are emotional and feeling beings, that can be hurt and not just physically, that have their own personalities based on genetics and enviromental influnce (hey, just like humans!), and so on. THe level of ignorance you display here sickens me.
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I think I agree with Chill here. The OP seems to be full of exaggerations.
For comparison with the OPs complaints I have 2 small dogs. We do not walk them in the normal sense. About 3-4 times a day we let them out in the yard. They run around for a little bit and enjoy the fresh air. I guess this is not technically 'walking', but I definitely feel that it is sufficient. My wife and I work long hours and are not home to take them out all the time. This has led us to using puppy pads when we are out of the house since we will not crate them, although we probably should. My situation sounds pretty similar to yours but with a slightly more positive spin on it. I do not think mine sounds like animal cruelty.
My advice for you is that you talk to them about your concerns. Let them know that you would like to be active in the care for the dog. They might let you go in the room to take the dog out and take care of some of the responsibilities. To me this seems like the first step that should have been taken before making your OP.
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On January 13 2012 23:37 drgoats wrote:For comparison with the OPs complaints I have 2 small dogs. We do not walk them in the normal sense. About 3-4 times a day we let them out in the yard. They run around for a little bit and enjoy the fresh air. I guess this is not technically 'walking', but I definitely feel that it is sufficient. My wife and I work long hours and are not home to take them out all the time. This has led us to using puppy pads when we are out of the house since we will not crate them, although we probably should. My situation sounds pretty similar to yours but with a slightly more positive spin on it. I do not think mine sounds like animal cruelty.
Do you honestly think so? Because it doesn't sound similar at all. 3-4 times a day and a little run are enough for little dogs. Sure it would be nicer if it was more but I think your dogs are okay with that. And since 3-4 times can be spread throughout the day it is also okay for you to have long work hours.
Yea, about the point that the op doesn't tell the truth... That is an assumption and we don't know that...~
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Calgary25996 Posts
On January 13 2012 23:10 Humanfails wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:39 SnetteL wrote:
Too much people get pets they can't handle. Standards are incredibly low for this day and age... this. Its very sad for the dog. They've got a living thing they're treating like a toy or other household object. You need to do the right thing and call animal protection.
You think the dog will have a better life with animal protection? No, the OP needs to do the right thing, not be a pussy and fucking talk to his brother. The fact that you would call AP before having a conversation with your family member about taking their pet away is fucking insane.
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Calgary25996 Posts
I'd like to hear a followup from the OP about this situation.
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On January 13 2012 23:53 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 23:37 drgoats wrote:For comparison with the OPs complaints I have 2 small dogs. We do not walk them in the normal sense. About 3-4 times a day we let them out in the yard. They run around for a little bit and enjoy the fresh air. I guess this is not technically 'walking', but I definitely feel that it is sufficient. My wife and I work long hours and are not home to take them out all the time. This has led us to using puppy pads when we are out of the house since we will not crate them, although we probably should. My situation sounds pretty similar to yours but with a slightly more positive spin on it. I do not think mine sounds like animal cruelty.
Do you honestly think so? Because it doesn't sound similar at all. 3-4 times a day and a little run are enough for little dogs. Sure it would be nicer if it was more but I think your dogs are okay with that. And since 3-4 times can be spread throughout the day it is also okay for you to have long work hours. Yea, about the point that the op doesn't tell the truth... That is an assumption and we don't know that...~
You are right, my post did not come out as well as I had hoped. My point is that if the OP was my brother, and he did not like the way that I treated my dogs he could alter my story a little and come up with his. I know I am assuming that he may be exaggerating, but he did spend a paragraph of his OP talking down about his sibling and his girlfriend. That painted a picture of a bad relationship.
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On January 14 2012 05:22 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 23:53 KeksX wrote:On January 13 2012 23:37 drgoats wrote:For comparison with the OPs complaints I have 2 small dogs. We do not walk them in the normal sense. About 3-4 times a day we let them out in the yard. They run around for a little bit and enjoy the fresh air. I guess this is not technically 'walking', but I definitely feel that it is sufficient. My wife and I work long hours and are not home to take them out all the time. This has led us to using puppy pads when we are out of the house since we will not crate them, although we probably should. My situation sounds pretty similar to yours but with a slightly more positive spin on it. I do not think mine sounds like animal cruelty.
Do you honestly think so? Because it doesn't sound similar at all. 3-4 times a day and a little run are enough for little dogs. Sure it would be nicer if it was more but I think your dogs are okay with that. And since 3-4 times can be spread throughout the day it is also okay for you to have long work hours. Yea, about the point that the op doesn't tell the truth... That is an assumption and we don't know that...~ You are right, my post did not come out as well as I had hoped. My point is that if the OP was my brother, and he did not like the way that I treated my dogs he could alter my story a little and come up with his. I know I am assuming that he may be exaggerating, but he did spend a paragraph of his OP talking down about his sibling and his girlfriend. That painted a picture of a bad relationship.
It really depends on the POV, because it could also emphasize the complete opposite. That he isn't biased and just made an observation, and that there is a reason he's hesitating to interfere. So we just have to wait for the OP.
Just like Chill I'd like to read a followup!
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Why don't you just offer to watch the dog for your brother and his gf when you're home? Or just let it out and play with it a bit, throw a stick or something.
Granted, we're all from the internet here, but this seems like an instance in which a nice civil discussion among a family would do wonders for your relationship with your brother (you said you are neutral to him), and possibly do the dog some good. If your brother responds by kicking the dog, I think you might want to get in touch with animal control or the police.
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On January 14 2012 05:18 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 23:10 Humanfails wrote:On January 13 2012 07:39 SnetteL wrote:
Too much people get pets they can't handle. Standards are incredibly low for this day and age... this. Its very sad for the dog. They've got a living thing they're treating like a toy or other household object. You need to do the right thing and call animal protection. You think the dog will have a better life with animal protection? No, the OP needs to do the right thing, not be a pussy and fucking talk to his brother. The fact that you would call AP before having a conversation with your family member about taking their pet away is fucking insane.
1. It depends on which group you call. You can call a good group and have the animal treated well, or you can call a bad one and it will be euthanized after a certain time period with no adoption. Either option is better than the torture the dogs are receiving here. You have no idea how painful confinement is. We have laws against this kind of behavior with children, and for good reason.
2. Do like your namesake, chill please.
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At first glance, I would call this neglect. I have had several dogs of my own in my lifetime, and this of course, tugs at your heartstrings.
But after some consideration, I don't think there's enough information to know if this constitutes as neglect. Some dogs LOVE being in their crate. I had a Beagle that would stay in her crate (open) next to the tv all day long during my undergrad years. Due to my busy-ness now, it stays with my brother who tells me she still does the same thing at his place.
I think if this really is abuse, you would recognize it at face value. There wouldn't really be any question since there would be other indicators as well. For example, if it was severely skinny, dirty, afraid / untrusting of people, etc.
Personally, I would try to talk to your brother. If you care that much, offer to take care of it when he's not there. If he cares about him/her, he should be happy to let you do so. DO NOT threaten to call animal control. It is ridiculous for many reasons, and will rarely bring the desired effect. Someone who is going to take care of an animal because of a threat like that is going to do the bare minimum anyways. Might as well just make the call without the threat.
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EPT
