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What is your definition of metagame?

Blogs > MannerMan
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MannerMan
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
371 Posts
December 30 2011 07:27 GMT
#1
We all know the debate that rages, whole threads full of disagreement and anger.

Here I ask you to give your definition in one sentence or less. Do not disagree with another person; either quote them if you agree or post your own definition.

If you post a definition feel free to expound upon it below, but make sure the definition can stand alone.

Here is mine (and it is the right one :p)

Anytime you do something that would normally be considered sub-optimal because your opponent knows it would be sub-optimal and is therefore not considering it, you are metagaming.



*
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16974 Posts
December 30 2011 07:30 GMT
#2
What's the point of stifling discussion?

In any case, I think the wikipedia article gives a good one sentence definition: "it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions."

As an aside, I saw the thread on the forum sidebar and was secretly hoping it was "What is your dream?" because I like reading people's aspirations.
Moderator
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44111 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-30 07:33:38
December 30 2011 07:31 GMT
#3
I thought meta-gaming was using your knowledge of StarCraft strategies to gain an advantage in some way. For example, playing a way that counters some typical build that you feel your opponent is going, or building Unit X to force your opponent to build Unit Y as a counter... which means you're already getting the tech set up for Unit Z, which counters Unit Y, which will ultimately put you at an advantage.

EDIT: Empyrean's is even more general, which I totally buy.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
G_G
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada178 Posts
December 30 2011 08:12 GMT
#4
On December 30 2011 16:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I thought meta-gaming was using your knowledge of StarCraft strategies to gain an advantage in some way. For example, playing a way that counters some typical build that you feel your opponent is going, or building Unit X to force your opponent to build Unit Y as a counter... which means you're already getting the tech set up for Unit Z, which counters Unit Y, which will ultimately put you at an advantage.

EDIT: Empyrean's is even more general, which I totally buy.


That is not metagame. That's using in-game experience and in-game information to make a decision.

Not metagame: Putting down a Spire making your opponent build anti-air defense when really youdon't plan on building any Muta. That is mental deception for sure, but not metagame at all. His decision is based on in-game information he gained from scouting.

Metagame: Taking loudly to your friend at a tournament before a match about how you love Muta harassment and do it every game. Your next opponent hears it and get blind anti-air defense without seeing any in-game indication that you will go muta. You don't build a a single Muta or even a Spire.

Or maybe I'm dumb. Everyone seems to have their own perception of the word.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16974 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-30 08:22:06
December 30 2011 08:17 GMT
#5
I disagree with that definition; that's just shaking your opponent up psychologically.

To use an example from Pokemon (of all things):

Pokemon are limited to four moves only. Often times, you can't have "type coverage." Let's say you need to check two very specific threats, a Pokemon who is 4x weak to fighting moves, and a Pokemon who is 4x weak to fire moves, but you only have one moveslot left. Do you choose a fire move to deal with the second Pokemon, or do you choose a fighting move to deal with the first one? Your choice would be based on the current metagame - that is, the current proportion of Pokemon A vs. Pokemon B. This relies on information outside of the game itself.

EDIT: To put in a Starcraft example (although from BW because I'm not familiar with SC2 at all), in PvZ, standard builds for Zerg call for very specific times at which the Zerg has to add drones. Certain Protoss players may come up with a novel build that sacrifices mid game economy to make a crippling attack on the Zerg during this "standard" build. Check out Movie's Dragoon attack on Jaedong in their game on Heartbreak Ridge.
Moderator
G_G
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada178 Posts
December 30 2011 08:24 GMT
#6
That is closely related to my example. You're picking certain moves because you know it's likely your opponent will pick certain types of Pokemon. In my example you're making your opponent choose to get some anti-air because you made them think it is likely you will do air harrassment. If making your opponent think they need air defense or their screwed is shaking them up phycologically, then so is making them worry about not choosing the right attack to counter the current popular type in Pokemon.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16974 Posts
December 30 2011 08:29 GMT
#7
The difference is that in your example, it's not your external knowledge of the game that helps you, it's your knowledge of how your opponent will react given your behavior.

I think the example of the user you quoted is a fine example.
Moderator
sh4w
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States713 Posts
December 30 2011 08:29 GMT
#8
There's a whole page of what metagame means in liquipedia http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Metagame
If I had to sum it up in one line, in my own words, and in a Starcraft sense I suppose I would say:
"Using current trends and other outside information to make assumptions and gain an advantage in game."
I want to go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird is all I've got. That and my sweet style.
Juliette
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States6003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-30 08:30:31
December 30 2011 08:30 GMT
#9
Fuck yes pokemon examples. I'm disappointed there was no garchomp reference though.

Trends in how the game is played, is that an accurate statement to describe metagame?

edit - that ninja
OKAY FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE I SEE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16974 Posts
December 30 2011 08:37 GMT
#10
On December 30 2011 17:30 Juliette wrote:
Fuck yes pokemon examples. I'm disappointed there was no garchomp reference though.

Trends in how the game is played, is that an accurate statement to describe metagame?

edit - that ninja


I thought choosing HP for coverage would have been easier to understand. Think HP Grass vs. HP Ice. That one comes up pretty common, actually. Or at least it did in third gen ._.
Moderator
kidcrash
Profile Joined September 2009
United States620 Posts
December 30 2011 08:48 GMT
#11
Ill put this as simply as possible:

New strategy > Surprising strategy > Good strategy > Popular strategy > Predictable strategy > Bad strategy.
Then the cycle repeats.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15325 Posts
December 30 2011 08:53 GMT
#12
On December 30 2011 17:48 kidcrash wrote:
Ill put this as simply as possible:

New strategy > Surprising strategy > Good strategy > Popular strategy > Predictable strategy > Bad strategy.
Then the cycle repeats.

This has zero to do with meta game though.

In any case, I think the wikipedia article gives a good one sentence definition: "it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions."
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
ohokurwrong
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Brazil283 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-30 08:58:50
December 30 2011 08:57 GMT
#13
i only wish meta game mattered on ladder.

i lose TONS of games by attempting to counter the counter to what i am doing. i assume the next logical step and then counter that logical decision. the problem is people even in top 8 masters are just terrible and do not play with what they see. if they see me throw a roach warren down for a roach rush they SHOULD make a bunker if they are going reactor helion. i will cancel the warren and drone hard and it turns out they didnt even change a THING about the build they were doing. i watch replay and he never makes any bunker and just acts like this is normal. another example is if i go DTs and a zerg holds it but doesnt die and its lets say an even trade. i assume he cant possibly be going muta i have blink already and shrine for archons. lo and behold he does anyway and i didnt have cannons bubye min line. things like this really bother me about sc2. because in BW transitions were rather slow compared to sc2 and the control was never perfect a cheese or dumb play never cost me a game but in sc2 i can lose because of 1 decision that isnt even bad

and yeh wiki has it right. knowing that an opener of reactor helion is standard in zvt you metagame him by going roach but since HE knows the counter to the popular style is roach he does marauder marine and so on and so on
kidcrash
Profile Joined September 2009
United States620 Posts
December 30 2011 09:37 GMT
#14
On December 30 2011 17:53 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 30 2011 17:48 kidcrash wrote:
Ill put this as simply as possible:

New strategy > Surprising strategy > Good strategy > Popular strategy > Predictable strategy > Bad strategy.
Then the cycle repeats.

This has zero to do with meta game though.

In any case, I think the wikipedia article gives a good one sentence definition: "it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions."


I thought what I described was along the same lines as this.....

One particular example of smaller scale metagame shifts is the PvZ record on Destination. For a time Protoss enjoyed a sizable win percentage, but then Zerg suddenly figured out a new build that more than adequately countered the Protoss standard and consequently won 13 games in a row. Then once Protoss figured out a counter to that build and won 11 out of the next 15, and so on. While the overall record eventually solidifed at an even 50%, PvZ history on that map was dominated by different streaks built from strategical advantages and disadvantages.
plated.rawr
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Norway1676 Posts
December 30 2011 10:48 GMT
#15
Metagaming is using your knowledge of how players approach the game to gain some sort of in-game advantage. That's all that there is to it, really.
Savior broke my heart ;_; || twitch.tv/onnings
gn0m
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden302 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-30 11:36:18
December 30 2011 11:35 GMT
#16
On December 30 2011 16:30 Empyrean wrote:
What's the point of stifling discussion?

In any case, I think the wikipedia article gives a good one sentence definition: "it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions."

This is pretty much it. I disagree with some parts of the Liquipedia definition though, or at least how the word is used. There is no such thing as a “metagame shift”, what does that even mean? Given the fact that some build are considered standard and therefore more likely to occur, one can exploit that by designing a build that counters the current one(s). Thus, a shift in strategy trends can occur. The metagame however remains constant, it can be applied on the new strategy but the process will be the same – using out-of-game information to gain an adventage.

Most people seem to think that metagame is a word for the current standardized way of playing which is wrong.
-_-
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
December 30 2011 11:41 GMT
#17
Whatever Chill tells me it is.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
December 30 2011 12:02 GMT
#18
The metagame is how people are generally playing the game, whether it be which strategies are popular or the players' level of mechanical skill, often in a particular time period or region/group of players. Examples:
  • "The release of Jinzo and the subsequent disappearance of most trap cards from competitive decks is the best example for explaining how changes in the game are the biggest cause of changes in the metagame." (popular strategy, particular group of players who are competitive)
  • "In the Protoss vs Zerg matchup in Starcraft 2, the metagame has shifted toward earlier roach tech and creep spread due to the emergence of 4 gate, +1 weapons zealot pressure." (popular strategy, particular time period of Nov-Dec 2011)
  • "Ken's SHFFLC'd forward aerial strikes with Marth allowed him dominance over early West Coast tournaments before the metagame caught up." (players' mechanical skill, particular time period and region)
  • "The metagame in the village of Albany was so undeveloped compared to more competitive regions that the newcomer easily swept everyone's teams with just a Shedinja." (popular strategies, particular region and time period)
  • "The Korean metagame is usually 2 months ahead of that of foreigners due to the incredible efficiency of practice houses." (popular strategies, particular regions)
  • "The current metagame does not allow for the 3 gate expand as a standard build, as it has no answer to the common 1/1/1 tank/banshee all-in." (popular strategy, particular time period but not region)

I prefer not to acknowledge the other meaning in the context of video games such as SC2 (nothing annoys me more than people who use metagame as a verb) , just as I do not use "cheese" as a dairy product, "all-in" to literally mean instant loss if failed like in poker, or "gay" to mean "happy".
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
December 30 2011 12:05 GMT
#19
On December 30 2011 16:27 MannerMan wrote:
We all know the debate that rages, whole threads full of disagreement and anger.

Here I ask you to give your definition in one sentence or less. Do not disagree with another person; either quote them if you agree or post your own definition.

If you post a definition feel free to expound upon it below, but make sure the definition can stand alone.

Here is mine (and it is the right one :p)

Anytime you do something that would normally be considered sub-optimal because your opponent knows it would be sub-optimal and is therefore not considering it, you are metagaming.



take it literally it means game beyond the game. IE, It's when someone does a 6 pool on map that's terrible for 6 pool, but he does it anyway because the zerg KNOWS that his opponent KNOWS that 6 pool is terrible on this map and is more likely to do a build that would die to 6 pool. Mind games = meta game, mostly
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
LastWish
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
2013 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-30 15:48:18
December 30 2011 15:47 GMT
#20
In rock, paper, scissors for example, if more than 33% of players play rock first it is advantagous for you to play paper first in the long run.
This is the application of meta-game knowledge.

Meta-game refers to common play in a certain population(for example your class, population of town, whole country, whole world).
If you are considering a common play of a certain player you would refer to it as to his "style".
- It's all just treason - They bring me down with their lies - Don't know the reason - My life is fire and ice -
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-30 17:14:30
December 30 2011 17:13 GMT
#21
Metagame is the part of the game that is outside the game itself basically.
The definition of "game" is what becomes the changing point tho, because a game can be the match himself ((a game between players) or the game as a whole which includes more things, and so what is outside the game depends on your definition of "game".

http://www.google.com/search?source=dict-chrome-ex&defl=en&hl=en&q=metagame&tbo=1&tbs=dfn:1

Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. ..
jacosajh
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
2919 Posts
December 30 2011 17:27 GMT
#22
[1] Meta- (from Greek: μετά = "after", "beyond", "adjacent", "self"), is a prefix used in English (and other Greek-owing languages) to indicate a concept which is an abstraction from another concept, used to complete or add to the latter.

[2] In epistemology, the prefix meta is used to mean about (its own category). For example, metadata are data about data (who has produced them, when, what format the data are in and so on).

I can see how people who describe Metagame as "mind games" are using it per [1]

But I see it as [2], especially after playing League of Legends for so long. What LoL players call meta is what is currently being done. Bruiser Top, AP Mid, Tanky Jungle, AD/Support Bot. Any deviation from that is said to be a break in meta. Because that is how LoL is currently organized / formatted. Same as building databases. Metadata is the data behind the data, which tells the data how it is to be organized and formatted.
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51418 Posts
December 30 2011 17:40 GMT
#23
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=130447
Commentator
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16974 Posts
December 30 2011 18:09 GMT
#24
I disagree with many of his examples. Causing lag spikes is metagaming?
Moderator
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
December 30 2011 18:17 GMT
#25
Let's say player X knows that player Y ALWAYS goes for a mid-game push. There's no need for player X to glean that information from the actual game; he just knows it's going to happen. Then, X prepares for it by doing something that directly counters Y's strategy, without any knowledge that he actually is doing it. That's metagaming.

Pokemon metagaming would be player X determining the likelihood of player Y having either HP Ice or HP Ground due to the composition of player Y's team. He doesn't need to actually see HP Ice or HP Ground; he simply applies his knowledge of currently popular strategies and determines what the most likely HP is based on the team Y is using.
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
December 31 2011 03:40 GMT
#26
I'd just like to add that I hate when people (or certain casters cough) say current strategies exist because of the meta game, like how people were like OH THE META GAME SHIFTED FROM 1 BASE TO EXPO BUILDS. No it didn't the fucking GAME shifted because people figured out how to expand without ever dying to shitty 1 base play, has nothing to do with metagame it doesnt matter what they're doing people can do expo builds now regardless.
That's not to say mindgames don't influence stuff but metagame has so very little to do with current good builds. Builds work because either no one has a good counter yet (in the game), or the maps allow for it (in the game). It doesn't really have anything to do with the game 'beyond' (the other persons mindset) the game, it's just straight up part of the game.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
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