EPTIs Cheese Ruining eSports in the West? - Page 2
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
Think back to the early days of GSL - most games were won off of one base timing attacks, sometimes they would go up to two base timing attacks (a lot of times these "timing attacks" were just funky cheeses), but very rarely would we ever see a true macro game. Why? Because the pros weren't yet capable of playing a perfect early game. Against a player who doesn't know all of the in's and out's of the early game, you can use aggressive play to capitalize on their mistakes and get a free win. Only after thousands of hours of experimentation have professional players moved beyond that point to where they can play a "standard macro game" - but that's because they first learned how to cheese and how to counter cheese. That's the way I see it. If I want to improve at sc2, then I need to first concentrate on the early game. If I'm still losing to cheeses on a regular basis, then it's because I need to improve that aspect of my game. And if I want to be a player that can execute a late-game macro strategy, I'd better be able to execute the simpler early-game strategies first. As a player who has always heavily preferred macro games over rushes, I think I'm noticing this flaw in my ability to play the game. A pro wouldn't have this flaw, because before that pro became a pro, that pro had to learn how to cheese. Trying to skip ahead into being a "macro player" without first ever learning how to play the early game is just cheating yourself. On December 30 2011 15:34 Ripps wrote: Just a quick question: What league are you in? If you're in gold or silver, go ahead and cheese but know that it is not the best way to improve. Once you're in diamond or higher, your cheese will simply not have the same win rate because we've seen it before and know how to respond after we scout it. All my builds crush early pools,, 4 gates, and can do well against 1-1-1 all ins. I'm Diamond in both the NA and Chinese servers. And I'm telling you, there's a cheese out there to beat every build you can come up with. It's actually amazing to me how many low level masters players still get smashed by a proxy void ray or a 7 roach rush, not to mention proxy factories and simple 2 rax play. And I think cheesing does help you to improve the most because it forces you to make quick decisions and have to fall back on plan B when you fail, which can often teach you the most about the game and improve your crisis management skills. Plus, having good mechanics while executing a cheese strat is ten times more difficult than having good mechanics while both players just sit in their bases and macro. Being a reactionary cheeser who can voluntarily fall back into a "standard macro game" is the way to go - and that's actually how I would classify most pros. | ||
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Lw247_
38 Posts
I just don't waste my time on those kind of players but then again I hardly play ladder & I hardly play sc2 to begin with as it's far from being better than bw. and just for the record, I'm very capable of stopping cheeses and it just makes me pull the legendary "-_-" face behind my screen so.. I just don't think people should get too obsessed with it as I think cheesing (at least for me) is rather easy to pull off but then again, since I have no respect for cheesy all-in players, I don't cheese, ever. Unless it's a guy who's tried to cheese before, then I just show him how it's done but being smart enough to be able to continue the game without getting too far behind if it would fail, unlike A LOT of cheesy players. (bw & sc2, though sc2 is a game I only play when I really don't have anything better to do). | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10856 Posts
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Lw247_
38 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 30 2011 21:40 CakeSauc3 wrote: I agree with the OP - I've been playing on the Chinese server the last couple of weeks, and wow, I see more cheeses there each day than in a whole week of playing on the NA server. Sure, at first, it would bug me a bit. But now, I feel like it's actually helping me to improve. My early-game awareness is being sharpened and my willingness to use my own cheese against opponents has increased as well. As I'm adjusting my play style, I'm starting to believe that the general consensus of "cheese doesn't help you improve" is wrong. Think back to the early days of GSL - most games were won off of one base timing attacks, sometimes they would go up to two base timing attacks (a lot of times these "timing attacks" were just funky cheeses), but very rarely would we ever see a true macro game. Why? Because the pros weren't yet capable of playing a perfect early game. Against a player who doesn't know all of the in's and out's of the early game, you can use aggressive play to capitalize on their mistakes and get a free win. Only after thousands of hours of experimentation have professional players moved beyond that point to where they can play a "standard macro game" - but that's because they first learned how to cheese and how to counter cheese. That's the way I see it. If I want to improve at sc2, then I need to first concentrate on the early game. If I'm still losing to cheeses on a regular basis, then it's because I need to improve that aspect of my game. And if I want to be a player that can execute a late-game macro strategy, I'd better be able to execute the simpler early-game strategies first. As a player who has always heavily preferred macro games over rushes, I think I'm noticing this flaw in my ability to play the game. A pro wouldn't have this flaw, because before that pro became a pro, that pro had to learn how to cheese. Trying to skip ahead into being a "macro player" without first ever learning how to play the early game is just cheating yourself. This is exactly how it should be, and largely how it was around D on iCCup (at least for me.) I don't think anyone has said cheese doesn't help you improve. It's that while building up your skill, performing it yourself won't help you very much. The people who cheese largely do it just for wins, which is the wrong mentality for practice, and they'll eventually hit a wall where that cheese doesn't work anymore. Of course they can practice it further and further (and many end up cheating in order to make it work) but eventually they'll hit a skill level where opponents can deflect it, and because they had only practiced cheesing up to that point, they have no regular game skill/awareness to fall back on. It's monumentally important to practice against, however, for becoming a well rounded player. If I were serious about training and had those two accounts, I would use the Chinese one mostly to practice defending cheese and use the NA one to practice performing it myself. | ||
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DocNemesis
Philippines446 Posts
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fusefuse
Estonia4644 Posts
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