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GSL Blizzard Cup Finals - MMA vs DRG analysis

Blogs > Azzur
Post a Reply
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 10:01:15
December 18 2011 08:03 GMT
#1
Well, the finals are done-and-dusted. Congratulations to MMA!!! I was super pumped - at the last game, nearing the last 2-3 minutes, I was standing up in front of my TV cheering MMA on. When the final "ggyo" happened, cue a massive fist pump and celebratory dance. The finals won't be remembered for the quality of all the games, but there some nail-bitingly epic ones. However, there are certainly many things to analyse!

Set1 - Crossfire
Despite many would tell you otherwise, Crossfire is zerg favoured. The terrans can conduct a dangerous 2-base timing (because of the map architecture) but after that, it is zerg all the way since the 3rd base is difficult to defend. Thus, it was a surprise that DRG decides to do some kind of "allinish" roach/ling. MMA on his part, plays a tricky banshee + cloak into 3 OCs. I think the reasoning is that he intends to use his banshees to pin the zerg back and get his 3rd base up-and-running. In my opinion, I don't really see it working since if DRG had gone for a standard fast mutas (and expanding to the 3rd when getting them), I don't see MMA holding on to this 3rd base with this strat. Still, it would be interesting to see this in action.

DRG comes in with his attack and MMA holds but loses alot of SCVs in the process - many posters in the LR thread claim that DRG has a massive advantage but I disagree. MMA has 3 OCs whilst DRG invested very heavily in the attack. I don't dispute that MMA was losing, but he was definitely still in the game. Regardless, DRG makes a huge mistake of not getting his evo chamber and MMA counters with his 3 cloacked banshees. They take down many queens + drones and force many spore colonies. MMA followes it up with some marines and wins easily.

I don't understand why DRG did not get an evo chamber when he spotted the banshees. Maybe he thought MMA won't get cloak? Still, it is either overconfidence or a big mistake - all poor play regardless.

Set2 - Tal D'arim Altar
MMA does a dangerous timing with marine/medivac/helion/tank but DRG was able to fend it off. After that, both players traded blows and MMA probably was slightly winning. The critical moment came when DRG had broodlords whilst MMA was viking-less. DRG's army pushed MMA back and it looked possible that MMA was running out of room to maneuver. After that MMA pulls of one of the most ballsy and crutch moves I've ever seen. He loads 2 medivacs with tanks (and I was like thinking WTF) and drops them behind DRG's army lines to kill infestors. DRG was taken aback and his control failed - banelings running into thors, etc. The move must be seen to be believed!

Arguments erupted in the LR thread about whether the move was good or not. But in reality, who cares? It was risky, flashy and full of balls. A move like this excites and wins the hearts of the fangirls. The alternative was to engage in a more standard way, however, it was a dangerous position for MMA's army - thus, his risky move it was justifiable.

Set3 - Bels'hir Beach
"Zergs'hir" beach is a favourite hunting ground for alot of zergs and perhaps it's no surprise that DRG opens defensively with MMA risking with a helion/marauder play. MMA puts his rax and factory in his natural location to trick DRG into believing that he is expanding but in reality he goes for a 1-base all-in. Now, there will be people who is going to claim that MMA only 1-based in reaction to the damage he did, but I disagree - if he intended to 2-base, his CC should've come much earlier. Anyways, it's all academic as MMA's first 2 helions manages a run-by and wrecks untold havoc. Reinforcing helions join the fray and MMA's impeccable micro means that he keeps the helions alive. Many helions against slow-lings = dead zerg. With the damage done, MMA does a BIT-BY-BIT along with his helion/marauder and wins easily.

Very poor defence by DRG - he uses 2 queens to block the entrace to his main base, but there was space which allowed the 2 initial helions to run by. Zergs will need to consider their defence in this map.

Set4 - Dual Sight
Another zerg favoured map and DRG must be demoralised and tilting at this point. MMA prepares for an "allinish" helion/marauder whilst DRG goes defensive roaches. MMA comes with his attack but DRG manages to hold with some nice tranfuses. In the meantime, DRG does a ling counter and MMA makes the mistake of having his depots lowered. The ling counter does some damage but MMA is able to deflect it. After that, DRG gets a 3rd base and goes infestor (instead of muta). He follows it up with a timing on MMA which I felt was a mistake. MMA holds and I think he could've chased the infestors and maybe killed a couple (but he chose not to do so).

MMA is now on 3 bases (similar to DRG) and the supplies were roughly even. Here, I felt MMA make the strategic mistake of poking around the map with his forces. In my opinion, it would've been better to play defensively but do his famed multi-pronged drop-play (since DRG had no mutas). Instead, he gets himself caught in some baneling land mines and DRG slowly assumes control. After defeating MMA a few times, he manages to kill MMA's 3rd and later pushes into the natural and wins.

Set5 - Daybreak
DRG plays his patented "allinish" roach/bane/ling bust whilst MMA opens with helion-expand. I would say the early aggression is quite justifiable since Daybreak is one of MMA's favourite maps. MMA manages to hold the attack but DRG does some nice damage. After that DRG gets his 3rd and was able to deflect MMA's attacks on it. Then came the critical point of the game - with supplies even, MMA loads 2 dropships filled with marines for a drop on DRG's main. DRG's mutas pop at precisely the right time and the drop was absolutely decimated. After this DRG has a big lead and continues making units and MMA gets his 3rd. DRG makes the good decision to attack right as he is maxed and wins quite easily.

Set6 - Antiga Shipyard
Antiga shipyard is a well-liked terran map because it was 3 easy to defend bases. DRG makes the decision to make quite a few roaches but doesn't commit them to an attack and instead hides them. MMA attacks with marine/tank on the zerg 3'rd base at a timing which is probably quite suitable if DRG had went mutas. Instead, with alot of roaches, DRG flanks MMA on 2 sides and decimates his forces. Thereafter, he makes alot of roaches and banelings and attacks MMA in the open space between the natural and 3rd. DRG's banelings from the overlords along with the roaches decimates MMA's army and takes the win.

Also, it's interesting that this drop strat seems to be quite popular on Antiga Shipyard - I saw Leenock do it vs Polt in their group game and another game (forgot the players) in the KSL. The key in the strat is that a terran on 3-bases needs to position his army in the open ground between his natural and the 3rd, making it vulnerable to attacks.

Set7 - Shakuras Plateau
I won't describe this game as there is too many things to talk about! A literally must-see game! What I'll comment is that MMA should've built ghosts and hence should be able to take the game more comfortably. In my opinion, this is a possibly flaw in his playstyle. Contrast with MVP's handling in TvZ in these split-bases situation. Still, the players are under tremendous stress - making the transition and level-headedness play difficult.

Points to ponder
- In all the games, MMA places his first rax in a tricky location. This forces DRG to invest more heavily in scouting and perhaps panic or overcommit. This is great for it's seeing players doing everything just to get the slightest advantages. Whether it is good or no, we'll see when the technique is developed further. As an example of recent innovation, see how Jjakji has now scared the zergs in their overlord placement.
- It seems that roach (along with bane/ling) early aggression seem to pose a sizeable threat to terrans (set1, set5 and set6). I think many zergs will catch on to this and look to punish terran greed with similar allinish builds. I think the terrans will need to come up with some kind of plan to deal with this. Note that it's quite common nowadays for terrans to build at least 1 marauder and this is a result of the zerg aggression threat. Also, have a look at Gumiho vs DRG, GSL Nov Code S, ro32 in regards to this possible solution.
- MMA's build in set1 seems to have quite a bit of promise and it would be interesting to see it in action on other maps. In addition, MMA showed a couple of helion/marauder builds: I think this is in response to DRG's propensity to go roach early aggression. I wonder if the build can also be used defensively, i.e. if the terran sees the zerg investing heavily on defenses, the terran doesn't push in, but rather accept that the zergs committing on defence means that the terran commital is not too bad.
- Hopefully MMA will shore up his split-base vs zerg late-game by building ghosts.

Finally
- MMA is going to be a serious threat to MVP's crown. Him beating MVP twice in important matches (GSL Oct finals, Blizzard Cup ro4) is a sizeable chip on MVP's shoulders. I think if MMA wins the next tournament, he will pull up side-by-side with MVP for the terran-king mantle.
- The GSL is EXTREMELY lucky that this finals (the last major one of the year) turned out so epic. It left the viewers wanting more and I can bet that so many are hyped for GSL in 2012. It could've easily turned out 4-0 and it would've been a major disappointment (through no fault of GOM though).

****
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10332 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 08:59:28
December 18 2011 08:57 GMT
#2
Nice right up. Why not in strat section?

Anyways, about MMA's build in set 1. It's almost the same thing Gumiho has been doing recently, first shown vs Nestea in WCG on taldarim. They both go reactor hellion expand with a starport and banshees. MMA simply decides to get Cloak. Sometimes Gumiho will stop after 1-2 banshees and make ravens. Sometimes he'll make 1-2 banshees then get vikings. Or just keep getting banshees, etc. Then, as soon as you have minerals, you make a CC for your third base, and only then do you take your natural gas (unless you're going bio that is).

It's a really great build because you contain the zerg and can get up your third before he can his. By the time mutas come out you'll have marines/turrets/thors, and siege tanks ready for any kind of roach/baneling counter attack (your banshees are important because they can kill some roaches before they reach your base).

I think it's actually even cooler he does that build on Crossfire, since the Zerg's third is so far, meaning it would take a shit ton of creep to connect his nat and third to use his queens to fight off the contain. (Mutas aren't the best idea). The terran's 3rd would be really far as well, but I think on that map Terran will be OK defending it as long as he has the tower? Not sure though. But he could keep the CC in base just for mules ofc.

Oh and I like how he built his first rax in weird places. I'm wondering the exact pros and cons of it (what makes it worth it or not worth it). He'll have to cut a couple marines but forcing his drone to scout around longer might be really worth it since it keeps the zerg in the dark and not sure of what to do (should i take my gas yet? roach warren? spine? take my nat faster?)
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
cmen15
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1519 Posts
December 18 2011 09:14 GMT
#3
Very good write up I agreed on most of your points, please write more of these in the future. <3
Greed leads to just about all losses.
hersenen
Profile Joined November 2011
Belize176 Posts
December 18 2011 09:27 GMT
#4
Reddit was arguing MMA didn't have the economy to make ghosts in game 7.

This is why I never listen to reddit for any real discussion on sc2.
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
December 18 2011 09:51 GMT
#5
I dont really see the advantage of the hidden rax. If the drone scout finds it thats two scvs pulled just to get it up, all for maybe five seconds of walking time saved for the marine? It doesnt seem worth it...
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
December 18 2011 10:23 GMT
#6
On December 18 2011 17:03 Azzur wrote:
I think if MMA wins the next tournament, he will pull up side-by-side with MVP for the terran-king mantle.
Agreed, well said. Currently still MVP is the terran king, but if MMA wins another one, there will be 2 Kings, and if MMA is the one who continues winning after that, and not MVP, then MMA could take the crown. But still MVP is currently safely the king, and if he doesn't go in a major slump, he's still in excellent position to keep the crown for himself for a long while.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10332 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 10:52:04
December 18 2011 10:50 GMT
#7
On December 18 2011 19:23 figq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2011 17:03 Azzur wrote:
I think if MMA wins the next tournament, he will pull up side-by-side with MVP for the terran-king mantle.
Agreed, well said. Currently still MVP is the terran king, but if MMA wins another one, there will be 2 Kings, and if MMA is the one who continues winning after that, and not MVP, then MMA could take the crown. But still MVP is currently safely the king, and if he doesn't go in a major slump, he's still in excellent position to keep the crown for himself for a long while.


I've always felt MMA is very close to MVP's level, if not better. His TvZ and TvT are around the same, if not better. Their TvPs, however, are both their weak points, but I can't conclude whose is better. We saw in MMA vs Oz MMA's TvP isn't that bad, but way back in Code A MMA did lose to Puzzle (right?), but then again Puzzle is pretty good. We haven't seen much TvP from MVP at all. Same with MMA. So it's hard to say. MVP beat Oz in the AoL but Oz did quite well. MVP kept winning with marine/tank/banshee play, which I do not think can last past a 2 base push situation, so I'm doubtful of MVP's ability to play a longer TvP game.

There's not many TvP to judge from but I do feel MMA's TvZ and TvT are slightly better, so I would say he is the best Terran (jjakji might be better, but we haven't see much from him).

Obviously though, if you are judging by earnings or titles, MVP is the king.

It's really hard to judge by "skill" though, since MMA is an aggressive bio user while MVP is a defensive mech user . And because MMA keeps beating MVP, but MVP keeps beating Polt, and Polt keeps beating MMA. Hmmm. xD
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 11:44:44
December 18 2011 11:43 GMT
#8
Nice writeup ! But there are 2 points which I disagree on.
- MMA, in game 1, was dead indeed after DRG's attack. Yes, he had 3OC, but less than 10 scv, and zero infrastructure (he had 3 production buildings total, no ebay armory, no tech except cloak). From this point DRG should never lose, as seen on Daybreak where DRG did less damage and still hit max when MMA was 110 supply.
- the ghosts on Shakuras. You need some room to mass produce ghosts, and I don't think MMA had enough to do so. He was still on 2 bases when DRG hit hive tech (iirc), in such a back and forth game, teching to ghost take a lot of time, cut into tanks and medivacs, I'm pretty sure he would have died switching to ghosts (or at least it would have been very close)
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 11:49:00
December 18 2011 11:48 GMT
#9
MMA is like one of the only code S terrans to have sub 50% in a matchup. Even if he is slightly better in TvZ I don't know if I could let that go. Put him in code A again with a lot of protoss and he'd have trouble, but MVP at the very least is favored against any protoss in the world. I think MMA's TvZ is better than MVP's tbh, while TvT I'm still gonna give the edge to MVP. He's capable of playing both bio and mech, but MMA is really good when it comes to being prepared with build orders and mind games. MMA plays reaaallly greedy against MVP all the time or reaaallly cheesy so MVP kind of has to go with his flow and really, I don't like to use this term often, but it becomes a coin flip.

Also, I don't think MMA has good crisis management. When's the last time he held a rush? Lol
Gingerninja
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom1339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 12:24:36
December 18 2011 12:24 GMT
#10
I feel MVP's TvT is actually superior to MMA's, it's just MMA has always had MVP's number, whether it just be mind games or not. Whenever they face each other, MMA generally comes out on top, where MVP tends to have better overall results.

Didn't see the games yesterday, was travelling home for christmas and missed them I'll have to catch the VoD's.
戦いの中に答えはある
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
December 18 2011 12:26 GMT
#11
Game 7. Yes, you really do need ghosts in this situation. Once Terran locks down the centre and gets ghosts it becomes nearly impossible for the Zerg to do anything with his lategame units and to take a 5th base. MMA was locking the centre down improperly!

I would probably have to watch the replay again but generally the right time to start adding ghosts for split map TvZ play is right after a big marine/tank vs ling bane muta battle. At this point both sides are at full economy and quickly scrambling to replace dead troops. You want the zerg to stay on ling/bane muta for long enough for you to get a bunch of ghosts out. There was one of these and MMA came out ahead in it!

DRG's ling bane roach attack in games 1 and 5 is a build he's been doing for quite some time. You basically need tanks or you get really behind. This is what happened both games (he still loses game 1 because of a really elementary fuck up but there you go. Gosus are human too) Faster banshees would also help, I'd imagine, but then DRG just drones up and keeps your banshees on your side of the map or else you just die to roaches.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
Bd.Snake
Profile Joined October 2011
Australia163 Posts
December 18 2011 12:56 GMT
#12
DRG was a inch from history
Well see the thing of it is you know theres alot of ugly people out there walking around but they dont know there ugly because nobody actually tells them
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44276 Posts
December 18 2011 13:52 GMT
#13
Really nice write-up and analysis!

I also think that MMA is extremely close to being on par with MVP. One more GSL title and I'll say that we have two Terran kings. I think that MVP is slightly better all-around, but MMA happens to be MVP's kryptonite, and they're both very high-achievers.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 16:56:31
December 18 2011 16:55 GMT
#14
Such a shame that MMA is already 23 years old and missed out on a great opportunity he had at his peak age. He is the more talented player and his raw multitasking ability puts him ahead even of many progamers, but MVP can and probably will grow tremendously as a player if he stays committed to the game and can deal with his wrist issues. I'm not sure how long will MMA be able to keep up.
cablesc
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1540 Posts
December 18 2011 21:34 GMT
#15
On December 18 2011 20:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:
MMA is like one of the only code S terrans to have sub 50% in a matchup. Even if he is slightly better in TvZ I don't know if I could let that go. Put him in code A again with a lot of protoss and he'd have trouble, but MVP at the very least is favored against any protoss in the world.


To be fair to MMA, most of his vP results are from over 5 months ago. If you look at his recent games vs Oz (super-close bo5) and MC (he 2-0'd MC in the AOL which for some reason isn't updated in tlpd), his skill level is definitely much better than his record indicates.
Slayers Forever! Rip. :( - Not the eSports organizer, that's CableStarcraft.
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 22:55:43
December 18 2011 22:53 GMT
#16
MMA and MVP are certainly closely matched, however I feel that MVP wasn't as well prepared as he could have been with just returning from WCG and the 'faster' format of the BlizzCup. I think MVP really benefits from the week between matches to study his opponents. I think MVP is a lot less 'godlike' without that prep time which is partially why he didn't do as well as expected in MLG.

RE Game7 Ghosts : Certainly it was a mistake not getting them earlier. Even if MMA build the ghost academy earlier and didn't use it until he thought the time was 'right'. The building it'self isn't that expensive, but I think it's fair to say that ghosts without tanks are pretty weak and DRG was doing a great job of keeping the tank count low. I think MMA 'felt' like he couldn't get ghosts until he had X number of tanks and never reached that number. He probably had a set certain event he works towards "get 12 tanks, PF the middle and then get ghosts" which never happened so he was still chasing that initial set of circumstances.

Without the replay it's almost impossible to say for certain that getting ghosts earlier was a good idea.
kakaman
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1576 Posts
December 19 2011 02:12 GMT
#17
I feel like people are underestimating MMA. As noted in the Q&A session with oov, MMA was oov's protege and in line to become the next great SKT Terran. He was coached by a bonjwa, and is currently coached by a bonjwa. In a strategy game like this, coaching and strategy matter so much after you get the mechanics down. Let's be honest guys, the Slayers team has MVP figured out.
Oboeman
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3980 Posts
December 19 2011 09:17 GMT
#18
Overall good analysis but I'd like to bring up some additional points that you didn't really mention.

Game 2 on tal'darim altar - MMA builds his 3rd CC outside his base at the 4th base spot, and DRG has map control, but fails to scout it and deny it. He could have easily canceled it with a single ling, or forced it to lift and relocate before becoming a planetary.
He doesn't find it until it becomes a planetary which leads him to commit a very big part of his army to it, and gets trapped engaging an equal supply terran from one angle off creep. In my opinion, this decided the game, because it let MMA take out DRG's 4th, keeping them even on 3 bases, which is why DRG's broodlord push was so desparate. If he had denied that expansion, he would have had a comfortable lead.

Game 3 on belshir beach. MMA went gas first hellion, and the location of the factory means that these are really early hellions, which will get to DRG's base long before the spinecrawler in the natural finishes. DRG responded correctly for any other map - he pulled drones to his main and blocked his ramp with his queens, but bel'shir beach doesn't have a ramp, so that doesn't work. I suspect that on a rampless map (tal'darim or belshir beach) against gas first hellions (especially built forward or proxy) you should probably start a spine in your main at the same time as your natural, and accept the fact that the first hellions can get into your base, but they won't be able to cripple you. Or maybe you can block your ramp with 2 queens and 2 lings, but that's pretty risky.

Game 7 DRG needed to use drops or nydus worm for denying the bottom expansions from MMA, the same way that MMA was able to deny the pocket expansions from DRG.
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