I am reading so many comments hating on GOM TV for punishing Naniwa for his „game“ versus Nestea and it seems like a lot of people don`t understand why this decision was made. I`m sure many of you still go to school or university and probably have no real job. But when you have a real job, you just have to do your work. Even in moments that can be described as mentally difficult. I know this is hard. That`s one reason why you get paid for it.
Naniwa knew the rules before he entered the tournament. He knew that if he would go 0:3 he still would have to play a 4th game, because GOMTV wants to broadcast every match. GOMTV is selling tickets and for them to be successful, they need to serve the highest quality in production and games. Naniwa refused to do his part, even though he agree to all the terms by entering the competition in the first place and therefore GOM got in trouble.
“During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours “ (GOM TV rule)
Some TL forumusers said GOM bends their own rules. I disagree. Nestea, who had his birthday one day before the match, did not celebrate it, but trained all day. GOMTV wanted to show games between the best players in the world. Fans tuned in (some of them even bought tickets just to see Naniwa, their favorite player, play) to be amazed by their idols skill. By not playing the game, but a-clicking 7 probes to Nesteas base, Naniwa was literally showing the fuckfinger to everyone. Clearly stating: I don`t care about any of you.
Money does not grow on trees! Sometimes I wonder how little some “pro”gamers know about their own industry. Being a professional Gamer needs more than just training inside the game. You need to be able to give at least “ok” interviews and satisfy your sponsors. You need to have a mentally stable mind. You need to have a vision for your own future. You need to cooperate with other parts of the industry. You need to be able to swallow down pride and pain and just do what is demanded of you.
Being a progamer sounds amazing. You travel around the globe and meet all kinds of people. You make a ton of experience in just a few years. You make money by playing a game. You get a lot of fans. BUT not everything is sweet. Like in every other job there will be times where you don`t want to do certain things. These situations will divide the masses. Some players will only be able to play “when they want to” and not “when they have to” and that´s why the huge majority will always remain amateurs, while only very few will actually become professional gamers.
I want to close this blog with some wise words from the BossToss himself.
“@oGsMC: I was really lost for words after watching today's game. Does he even know what the word "pro" is? My role model for professionalism is White-Ra. He really loves his fans, and doesn't give up his games until the end, and he's very mannered towards everyone. Does anyone dislike White-Ra?
I hope Naniwa can look at White-Ra and change his mentality. I don't think it's right to do that, not considering your opponent at all. I wish he'd think about how he would have felt if I had gone 3-0 and confirmed #1 in my group, and he was 0-3, and I thought that since I'm 1st place nothing matters and just GG'd out of my game against him.
Well, if you there's no big deal because there's no money on the the line, then I can't say anything to that, you're just not a pro. After seeing Naniwa, I thought HerO was all the more awesome for being so upset about losing his games yesterday. “ (taken from Waxangels twitter blog)
The games should have never even been played in the first place. I get that he should have given it his all, but he shouldn't have been placed in that position. I agree that some punishment was necessary, but Chae's words are why I'm outraged. He said NaNi was after only the money. That's just fucking wrong.
But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game."
"Automatic Loss Rule
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game."
So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment.
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game."
"Automatic Loss Rule
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game."
So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment.
This is a stupid argument. GOM's rules are not the 10 commandments and they can bend them as they wish because they're GOM. Every single person watching in korea was outraged, people need to get a clue. You're on korean turf, halfway across the world as an invited guest, show some god damn respect for their tournament. It was obvious this was gonna cause controversy. Foreigners are too used to divas getting away with disrespectful shit all the time that this isn't a big deal, but GSL is a korean tournament. If I say take your shoes off when you come into my house, take your damn shoes off or you're getting kicked out.
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game."
"Automatic Loss Rule
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game."
So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment.
This is a stupid argument. GOM's rules are not the 10 commandments and they can bend them as they wish because they're GOM. Every single person watching in korea was outraged, people need to get a clue. You're on korean turf, halfway across the world as an invited guest, show some god damn respect for their tournament. It was obvious this was gonna cause controversy. Foreigners are too used to divas getting away with disrespectful shit all the time that this isn't a big deal, but GSL is a korean tournament. If I say take your shoes off when you come into my house, take your damn shoes off or you're getting kicked out.
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game."
"Automatic Loss Rule
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game."
So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment.
This is a stupid argument. GOM's rules are not the 10 commandments and they can bend them as they wish because they're GOM. Every single person watching in korea was outraged, people need to get a clue. You're on korean turf, halfway across the world as an invited guest, show some god damn respect for their tournament. It was obvious this was gonna cause controversy. Foreigners are too used to divas getting away with disrespectful shit all the time that this isn't a big deal, but GSL is a korean tournament. If I say take your shoes off when you come into my house, take your damn shoes off or you're getting kicked out.
Foreigners were upset too...
Yes, but people saying it was okay and should be allowed with no punishment is what I'm referring to. It seems like it's split 50/50 on yes/no. Naniwa got away with calling MLG a joke tournament on the main stage and doing a bunch of shady shit. I can't believe we still let that one go.
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game."
"Automatic Loss Rule
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game."
So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment.
This is a stupid argument. GOM's rules are not the 10 commandments and they can bend them as they wish because they're GOM. Every single person watching in korea was outraged, people need to get a clue. You're on korean turf, halfway across the world as an invited guest, show some god damn respect for their tournament. It was obvious this was gonna cause controversy. Foreigners are too used to divas getting away with disrespectful shit all the time that this isn't a big deal, but GSL is a korean tournament. If I say take your shoes off when you come into my house, take your damn shoes off or you're getting kicked out.
[my bolding]
When did I ever say anything different? It was my whole point, the rules are being bent, the blog post said the rules never are bent.
See for yourself:
On December 14 2011 20:50 zul wrote:
Some TL forumusers said GOM bends their own rules. I disagree.
Actually: you are agreeing with me! It is not an argument I must stress, please don't be upset.
The only thing I wrote was that I hope for more and clearer rules in the future so everyone can accurately discern what consequences an action will have.
I haven't said anything about right or wrong, as you will see reading my post one more time.
Sorry, I misread, but this is a big deal to GOM, and it really was disrespectful in every way, I don't see how you can say it wasn't. Instead of forfeiting off stage he decided to climb into the booth, and show how much of a whiny loser he was to the whole world. He needs to learn to grow up before he gets put on television.
Weren't both players 0-3 in a 5-enter-2-leave group?
This has nothing to do with entertaining fans. It has everything to do with disrespecting zergbong (thumbs down, probe rush, remarks).
Personally, I don't care what kind of trash talk the players bring to the game. If this were boxing, they'd be talking shit about yo mama and throwing punches before the bell ever rang.
On December 14 2011 20:50 zul wrote: I am reading so many comments hating on GOM TV for punishing Naniwa for his „game“ versus Nestea and it seems like a lot of people don`t understand why this decision was made. I`m sure many of you still go to school or university and probably have no real job. But when you have a real job, you just have to do your work. Even in moments that can be described as mentally difficult. I know this is hard. That`s one reason why you get paid for it.
Naniwa knew the rules before he entered the tournament. He knew that if he would go 0:3 he still would have to play a 4th game, because GOMTV wants to broadcast every match. GOMTV is selling tickets and for them to be successful, they need to serve the highest quality in production and games. Naniwa refused to do his part, even though he agree to all the terms by entering the competition in the first place and therefore GOM got in trouble.
“During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours “ (GOM TV rule)
Some TL forumusers said GOM bends their own rules. I disagree. Nestea, who had his birthday one day before the match, did not celebrate it, but trained all day. GOMTV wanted to show games between the best players in the world. Fans tuned in (some of them even bought tickets just to see Naniwa, their favorite player, play) to be amazed by their idols skill. By not playing the game, but a-clicking 7 probes to Nesteas base, Naniwa was literally showing the fuckfinger to everyone. Clearly stating: I don`t care about any of you.
Money does not grow on trees! Sometimes I wonder how little some “pro”gamers know about their own industry. Being a professional Gamer needs more than just training inside the game. You need to be able to give at least “ok” interviews and satisfy your sponsors. You need to have a mentally stable mind. You need to have a vision for your own future. You need to cooperate with other parts of the industry. You need to be able to swallow down pride and pain and just do what is demanded of you.
Being a progamer sounds amazing. You travel around the globe and meet all kinds of people. You make a ton of experience in just a few years. You make money by playing a game. You get a lot of fans. BUT not everything is sweet. Like in every other job there will be times where you don`t want to do certain things. These situations will divide the masses. Some players will only be able to play “when they want to” and not “when they have to” and that´s why the huge majority will always remain amateurs, while only very few will actually become professional gamers.
I want to close this blog with some wise words from the BossToss himself.
“@oGsMC: I was really lost for words after watching today's game. Does he even know what the word "pro" is? My role model for professionalism is White-Ra. He really loves his fans, and doesn't give up his games until the end, and he's very mannered towards everyone. Does anyone dislike White-Ra?
I hope Naniwa can look at White-Ra and change his mentality. I don't think it's right to do that, not considering your opponent at all. I wish he'd think about how he would have felt if I had gone 3-0 and confirmed #1 in my group, and he was 0-3, and I thought that since I'm 1st place nothing matters and just GG'd out of my game against him.
Well, if you there's no big deal because there's no money on the the line, then I can't say anything to that, you're just not a pro. After seeing Naniwa, I thought HerO was all the more awesome for being so upset about losing his games yesterday. “ (taken from Waxangels twitter blog)
I've been working for the better part of the last 8 years so find your post offensive and nothing more than personal opinion. Don't bring your view of a workplace as an argument.
He offended viewers and players but that was NOT abusive behaviour. It's just what they could find to kick him out, probably due to complaints from Korean teams.
The removal of the seed simply doesn't stand and it should be reverted and a new rule added but for now he did nothing against the rules.
On December 14 2011 21:19 Itsmedudeman wrote: Sorry, I misread, but this is a big deal to GOM, and it really was disrespectful in every way, I don't see how you can say it wasn't. Instead of forfeiting off stage he decided to climb into the booth, and show how much of a whiny loser he was to the whole world. He needs to learn to grow up before he gets put on television.
I didn't say that it wasn't, I have accepted his punishment and think GSL was in the right to do so but:
1. I would like clearer and more rules, at the very least it would take away the "I didn't know"-defense. Could we agree on that?
2. I think it is a bit harsh punishment as it stands, maybe there will be some clarifications from GSL, but I think that a written statement should be given with what the punishment is and why.
For all I know maybe Naniwa got a Code A-seed instead or knocked down to the up and down-bracket, at this point I haven't seen any official statements from GSL.
So, I'm fine with Naniwa being punished but the way the affair is being handled isn't optimal, I'm sure a lot of drama could have been avoided if only the proper channels were used in a timely fashion.
If anything. GOM should arrange a showmatch between NesTea and Naniwa. If fans wanted to see a grudgematch, make them enter with the mindset that the winning actually matters. It's like telling a painter you want to buy a picture, but that you will burn it right after you got it. Do you think he will put in a full artistic effort?
They call it an match that shouldnt be played. But actually it was one of the matches ppl were looking forward the most. Even when they were both out of the tournament it still was a grudgematch and a chance for Nestea to get his revenge on Naniwa.
And even then they didnt only play for this, they played for the audience, GOMTV/GSL and for themself to get new fans or show some fun.
Im completly fine with Genius doing a 2 base Carrierbuild in GSL when he is already out but he wants to make it remarkable. He just won sooo many fans by doing this and the ppl who watched it were very pleased. Naniwa only lost fans (should have) and feeded the haters and pissed on GOMTVs leg. I cant believe he did this without thinking about getting a penalty. Well he got away with a lot fo stuff in the past month but he finally got what he deserved - a penalty. Even though I think it was too harsh its great to see him running against a wall with his disrespectful attitude he is showing every moment he can.
We like bad boys. But we dont like badboys that dont know where to stop
On December 14 2011 21:30 chokke wrote: If anything. GOM should arrange a showmatch between NesTea and Naniwa. If fans wanted to see a grudgematch, make them enter with the mindset that the winning actually matters. It's like telling a painter you want to buy a picture, but that you will burn it right after you got it. Do you think he will put in a full artistic effort?
Winning always matters. Especially in that match it mattered a lot. Nestea wanted his revenge and Naniwa had the oppurtunity to prove himself in korea. And that his invite to the tournament wasnt a bad decision. He could have prove to win a match vs one of the best zergs but he declined cause he only saw the tournament and doesnt care about anything else but this.
On December 14 2011 20:50 zul wrote: I am reading so many comments hating on GOM TV for punishing Naniwa for his „game“ versus Nestea and it seems like a lot of people don`t understand why this decision was made.
That is simply because GomTV made an unprecedented decision with no public explanation.
On December 14 2011 20:50 zul wrote:But when you have a real job, you just have to do your work. Even in moments that can be described as mentally difficult. I know this is hard. That`s one reason why you get paid for it.
He did the work he just didn't do it very well. In other words he implemented a strategy that has an almost zero chance of winning. But you are acting like he just never entered the booth at all. He upheld his obligation to enter the booth and play out the game which he did. He owes GomTV nothing more than that.
On December 14 2011 20:50 zul wrote:Naniwa knew the rules before he entered the tournament. He knew that if he would go 0:3 he still would have to play a 4th game, because GOMTV wants to broadcast every match. GOMTV is selling tickets and for them to be successful, they need to serve the highest quality in production and games. Naniwa refused to do his part, even though he agree to all the terms by entering the competition in the first place and therefore GOM got in trouble.
Actually GOMTV doesn't always make players play matches like this it is called a dead rubber in tennis and is not taken seriously in most sports. Do they make players play 3 games in every Bo3? No.
On December 14 2011 20:50 zul wrote:“During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours “ (GOM TV rule)
He didn't offend his opponent or the audience so he did not break this rule at all. Actually it is the other rule about acting like a professional that people believe he broke.
Fans tuned in (some of them even bought tickets just to see Naniwa, their favorite player, play) to be amazed by their idols skill. By not playing the game, but a-clicking 7 probes to Nesteas base, Naniwa was literally showing the fuckfinger to everyone. Clearly stating: I don`t care about any of you.
If you watch enough matches you should know that this match was going to be a farce (any match that is meaningless like this will be). I don't know why you think otherwise but I started reading a book before it started since I knew it would be crappy.
Money does not grow on trees! Sometimes I wonder how little some “pro”gamers know about their own industry. Being a professional Gamer needs more than just training inside the game. You need to be able to give at least “ok” interviews and satisfy your sponsors. You need to have a mentally stable mind. You need to have a vision for your own future. You need to cooperate with other parts of the industry. You need to be able to swallow down pride and pain and just do what is demanded of you.
Just like in every other sport... oh wait not really. How professional was Tyson when he bit off Evander Holyfield's ear, or McEnroe yelling abuse at the umpire, or the brawls in almost every Rugby match. Not everyone can be like White-Ra I am not a Naniwa fan but I want him to stay true to his personality. So many sc2 players are really reserved and don't say or do what they feel like. We need people like Naniwa and Idra to provide the drama and negative energy at times. Sport is about passion please don't try to take that away. Players aren't puppets that will give their best for meaningless matches for no money at all.
Some people think Naniwa should have just faked it, but that is not Naniwa's way. I actually respect him for that even though I wouldn't have done the same.
On December 14 2011 21:19 Itsmedudeman wrote: Sorry, I misread, but this is a big deal to GOM, and it really was disrespectful in every way, I don't see how you can say it wasn't. Instead of forfeiting off stage he decided to climb into the booth, and show how much of a whiny loser he was to the whole world. He needs to learn to grow up before he gets put on television.
I didn't say that it wasn't, I have accepted his punishment and think GSL was in the right to do so but:
1. I would like clearer and more rules, at the very least it would take away the "I didn't know"-defense. Could we agree on that?
2. I think it is a bit harsh punishment as it stands, maybe there will be some clarifications from GSL, but I think that a written statement should be given with what the punishment is and why.
For all I know maybe Naniwa got a Code A-seed instead or knocked down to the up and down-bracket, at this point I haven't seen any official statements from GSL.
So, I'm fine with Naniwa being punished but the way the affair is being handled isn't optimal, I'm sure a lot of drama could have been avoided if only the proper channels were used in a timely fashion.
Yeah, I can understand that seeing as how foreigners are so split on this and it's between two extremes. However, realize that 95% of the koreans are not split on this and that they are pissed. He actually really got off easy. "Mistake" or not, they see him as having a shitty attitude/personality in general after that game and shouldn't be playing in their tournament.
Also, come on. It's naniwa. This isn't one honest mistake here, this is karma catching up with him for all the stuff he's gotten away with.
On December 14 2011 21:30 chokke wrote: If anything. GOM should arrange a showmatch between NesTea and Naniwa. If fans wanted to see a grudgematch, make them enter with the mindset that the winning actually matters. It's like telling a painter you want to buy a picture, but that you will burn it right after you got it. Do you think he will put in a full artistic effort?
That analogy doesn't make sense at all. It would be better to say to ask a painter to make a painting to be showed to people but he won't get paid for it. Some artists might refuse or put to effort in the painting then but many artists would want to remain their artistic integrity and do a fine job at it anyway (despite being not as good when paid). Nani's behaviour has been terrible on multiple occasions already and it was time he got punished for it. I don't even think he does it on purpose, I think he is just too careless or too ignorant to think about the consequences of some of his behaviour. He might not even mean it in a bad way but he should realize how offending some of his actions come over to others. As a professional he should have learned how to behave while performing his sport, if he can't he deserves penalties for it. High level sports are for the fans and paid by the fans.
Just like in every other sport... oh wait not really. How professional was Tyson when he bit off Evander Holyfield's ear, or McEnroe yelling abuse at the umpire, or the brawls in almost every Rugby match. Not everyone can be like White-Ra I am not a Naniwa fan but I want him to stay true to his personality. So many sc2 players are really reserved and don't say or do what they feel like. We need people like Naniwa and Idra to provide the drama and negative energy at times. Sport is about passion please don't try to take that away. Players aren't puppets that will give their best for meaningless matches for no money at all.
Some people think Naniwa should have just faked it, but that is not Naniwa's way. I actually respect him for that even though I wouldn't have done the same.
Right.. and Tyson got punished heavily for his actions. McEnroe has also been punished multiple times... You don't have to sportsmanlike if you don't want too but you must realize it has consequences too. For some people it builds their character and helps them like in McEnroe's case, who only acted that way on court by the way.
On December 14 2011 21:30 chokke wrote: If anything. GOM should arrange a showmatch between NesTea and Naniwa. If fans wanted to see a grudgematch, make them enter with the mindset that the winning actually matters. It's like telling a painter you want to buy a picture, but that you will burn it right after you got it. Do you think he will put in a full artistic effort?
Winning always matters. Especially in that match it mattered a lot. Nestea wanted his revenge and Naniwa had the oppurtunity to prove himself in korea. And that his invite to the tournament wasnt a bad decision. He could have prove to win a match vs one of the best zergs but he declined cause he only saw the tournament and doesnt care about anything else but this.
Even if he won, lost or whatever using a proxy-gate, 4-gate, some 1-base all-in and won/lost, people would use the excuse that it wouldn't count and so on. People are saying ladder-games don't matter because nothing is on the line, well, that was what it was, a game with nothing on the line. So just with the up&down, games that doesn't affect the outcome shouldn't be played.
And if there such a need for "epic grudgematch xD" between NesTea and Naniwa, it should be arranged as an isolated event, not a lucky outcome in groupplay where they play their last match against eachother (especially not when the outcome was like this).
On December 14 2011 21:19 Itsmedudeman wrote: Sorry, I misread, but this is a big deal to GOM, and it really was disrespectful in every way, I don't see how you can say it wasn't. Instead of forfeiting off stage he decided to climb into the booth, and show how much of a whiny loser he was to the whole world. He needs to learn to grow up before he gets put on television.
I didn't say that it wasn't, I have accepted his punishment and think GSL was in the right to do so but:
1. I would like clearer and more rules, at the very least it would take away the "I didn't know"-defense. Could we agree on that?
2. I think it is a bit harsh punishment as it stands, maybe there will be some clarifications from GSL, but I think that a written statement should be given with what the punishment is and why.
For all I know maybe Naniwa got a Code A-seed instead or knocked down to the up and down-bracket, at this point I haven't seen any official statements from GSL.
So, I'm fine with Naniwa being punished but the way the affair is being handled isn't optimal, I'm sure a lot of drama could have been avoided if only the proper channels were used in a timely fashion.
Yeah, I can understand that seeing as how foreigners are so split on this and it's between two extremes. However, realize that 95% of the koreans are not split on this and that they are pissed. He actually really got off easy. "Mistake" or not, they see him as having a shitty attitude/personality in general after that game and shouldn't be playing in their tournament.
Also, come on. It's naniwa. This isn't one honest mistake here, this is karma catching up with him for all the stuff he's gotten away with.
In my eyes the reactions are threefold: 1. Those who is uncritical Naniwa-fans 2. Those who are (more or less) justly very critical of him 3. People in the middle
I'd like to subscribe to number 3, I don't get how he can be unconditionally defended by his fans but I don't agree he should be lambasted either. That he should be punished in some capacity I definitely am for.
True, it can be a good thing for him that a limit is drawn finally.
Even better if all the cards are on the table, written down statements of the charge, the evidence and the punishment; if he has notions of being treated unfairly they should disappear in face of overwhelming evidence and probably force him to change.
Finally I wish that foreign viewers would get timely information what is happening over there, I think less people would blast GSL if so were and that would be in everyone's best interest.
Wasn't the information much better surrounding the Coca/Byun-incident?
I think the information is pretty clear on this one. In any case, people need to be punished, and in the end this is a much better experience for him than getting away with a warning so long as he realized what he did was wrong. I hope to god he doesn't think it's not his fault and he just goes on continuing to do shit the way he does because he will not last a year that way.
I'm offended when someone 4 gates me. Will my opponent be banned for this ? I certainly hope so ! ^^
Like someone said in the Naniwa post, ceremonies can be counted as being bad mannered too sometimes, so there's no reason we shouldn't ban them either.
My points is that GOM has rules that are pretty vague and that should be a LOT more precise to make the players and the viewers lives easier.
On December 14 2011 21:49 Itsmedudeman wrote: I think the information is pretty clear on this one. In any case, people need to be punished, and in the end this is a much better experience for him than getting away with a warning so long as he realized what he did was wrong. I hope to god he doesn't think it's not his fault and he just goes on continuing to do shit the way he does because he will not last a year that way.
Yes, the incident itself is glass clear.
But: 1. The only official information is verbal and from the GOMTV stream translated by a third party translator. 2. Uncertainty if Naniwa really was awarded a seed from MLG, seems now he wasn't, this is also not from a GSL-employee as I understand it
Hope John the translator or any other GSL-guy can get on the ball with this.
I really don't know what is true, but as I said, I hope a lot of things get straightened out the coming day/days
And this is more foreign viewer service than anything else.
EDIT: thanks for a civilized discussion, I don't want to get near those other threads, no real discussion to be found there, if it is then it gets drowned.
On December 14 2011 21:49 Itsmedudeman wrote: I think the information is pretty clear on this one. In any case, people need to be punished, and in the end this is a much better experience for him than getting away with a warning so long as he realized what he did was wrong. I hope to god he doesn't think it's not his fault and he just goes on continuing to do shit the way he does because he will not last a year that way.
Yes, the incident itself is glass clear.
But: 1. The only official information is verbal and from the GOMTV stream translated by a third party translator. 2. Uncertainty if Naniwa really was awarded a seed from MLG, seems now he wasn't, this is also not from a GSL-employee as I understand it
Hope John the translator or any other GSL-guy can get on the ball with this.
I really don't know what is true, but as I said, I hope a lot of things get straightened out the coming day/days
And this is more foreign viewer service than anything else.
It's one of those "have common sense" things, and there was a rule that could describe this incident. "Players will not offend the other player/audience". It's not 100% defining, but a lot of people were outraged about the incident so it fits.
Also, come on, it's common sense not to do this kind of stuff. Just like everyone knows when they walk into their job that they aren't gonna piss off their boss, this fits the same criteria.
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game."
"Automatic Loss Rule
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game."
So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment.
For stephano it didn`t change anything. He lost and writing "gg" would not have made him win the match. And "gl hero" can only be interpreted as a positive gesture. That`s a significant difference.
It would have been best if Naniwa just discussed the possibilities with Nestea about the match in the 30-40 mins before the match was supposed to be played. He could have (attempted to) work something out with Nestea and GOMtv by explaining that he just couldn't bring a good match in the mental state he was in.
Perhaps they could have played the match later, or work something out to play a grudge match, or at the very least inform the producers and Nestea that he just wouldn't be able to give Nestea and the audience the match they deserve.
None of these thing happened as far as I know. The penalty is to lose his Code S seed for the 1st 2012 season. I think it is the right penalty, as it is not that severe. I do think Gomtv should contemplate removing a meaningless match though in any future setups and at least understand that the structure of this Blizzard Cup is flawed.
Moving forward, I am sure that both parties learned a great deal from this event, and will not make this same mistake in the future. It happened, let's move forward now.
On December 14 2011 21:55 LunaSea wrote: I'm offended when someone 4 gates me. Will my opponent be banned for this ? I certainly hope so ! ^^
Like someone said in the Naniwa post, ceremonies can be counted as being bad mannered too sometimes, so there's no reason we shouldn't ban them either.
My points is that GOM has rules that are pretty vague and that should be a LOT more precise to make the players and the viewers lives easier.
In some ways this remembers me KespA in BW...
Laws/rules are often very vague and will be further specified by judges or other deciding councils. In this case by the GOMTV officials.
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game."
"Automatic Loss Rule
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game."
So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment.
For stephano it didn`t change anything. He lost and writing "gg" would not have made him win the match. And "gl hero" can only be interpreted as a positive gesture. That`s a significant difference.
You said the rules never get bent and I said they did, that is all, it was an correction.
I agree that it is a good bending of the rule not to punish MC and Stephano for those things. I agree that it is a good bending of the rule to punish Naniwa for those things.
That is all I said.
And that I personally prefer a bigger, more detailed list of offenses and punishments for these than rules which are easily bendable.
(The nature of the punishment is of course another discussion entirely.)
On December 14 2011 22:05 Masayume wrote: It would have been best if Naniwa just discussed the possibilities with Nestea about the match in the 30-40 mins before the match was supposed to be played. He could have (attempted to) work something out with Nestea and GOMtv by explaining that he just couldn't bring a good match in the mental state he was in.
Exactly. IN fact, if he said he didn't want to play under the circumstances I think they would have let him off scott free without forcing him to play. It wasn't that they wanted to force him to play, it's that he played and showed that game to us that people are upset over.
On December 14 2011 21:30 chokke wrote: If anything. GOM should arrange a showmatch between NesTea and Naniwa. If fans wanted to see a grudgematch, make them enter with the mindset that the winning actually matters. It's like telling a painter you want to buy a picture, but that you will burn it right after you got it. Do you think he will put in a full artistic effort?
Winning always matters. Especially in that match it mattered a lot. Nestea wanted his revenge and Naniwa had the oppurtunity to prove himself in korea. And that his invite to the tournament wasnt a bad decision. He could have prove to win a match vs one of the best zergs but he declined cause he only saw the tournament and doesnt care about anything else but this.
Even if he won, lost or whatever using a proxy-gate, 4-gate, some 1-base all-in and won/lost, people would use the excuse that it wouldn't count and so on. People are saying ladder-games don't matter because nothing is on the line, well, that was what it was, a game with nothing on the line. So just with the up&down, games that doesn't affect the outcome shouldn't be played.
And if there such a need for "epic grudgematch xD" between NesTea and Naniwa, it should be arranged as an isolated event, not a lucky outcome in groupplay where they play their last match against eachother (especially not when the outcome was like this).
Do you really think so? Cause I dont!
If you would have read my post then you would know that there was something onthe lne. Even Naniwas management were talking about the grudge match between those two.
It was said that every match would have been played cause with such high calibre player you want to see every match cause each one matters. This was a grudge match while also being a tournament match. I dont know why this should be cancelled and play it out on another date. they were there, everyone was waiting for it and one of the players decided that it aint worth it. gomtv looses money, viewers, promotion etc
Naniwas decision was one dimensional and disrespectful to everyone. this should get punished
Yeah, people seriously need to stop thinking about just advancing/not advancing as the only thing that mattered. This was a tournament to see who was better than who, not just who came out number 1. Stephano's 2-2 outcome is a LOT more meaningful than an 0-4 even though he didn't advance.
On December 14 2011 21:49 Itsmedudeman wrote: I think the information is pretty clear on this one. In any case, people need to be punished, and in the end this is a much better experience for him than getting away with a warning so long as he realized what he did was wrong. I hope to god he doesn't think it's not his fault and he just goes on continuing to do shit the way he does because he will not last a year that way.
Yes, the incident itself is glass clear.
But: 1. The only official information is verbal and from the GOMTV stream translated by a third party translator. 2. Uncertainty if Naniwa really was awarded a seed from MLG, seems now he wasn't, this is also not from a GSL-employee as I understand it
Hope John the translator or any other GSL-guy can get on the ball with this.
I really don't know what is true, but as I said, I hope a lot of things get straightened out the coming day/days
And this is more foreign viewer service than anything else.
It's one of those "have common sense" things, and there was a rule that could describe this incident. "Players will not offend the other player/audience". It's not 100% defining, but a lot of people were outraged about the incident so it fits.
Also, come on, it's common sense not to do this kind of stuff. Just like everyone knows when they walk into their job that they aren't gonna piss off their boss, this fits the same criteria.
I agree with you, but there is a thousand people who doesn't and are very hard to convince, it would be easier to convince them maybe with the suggestions I've given.
All I want to do is how to explore how these kinds of things can be minimized in terms of "hurting eSports" (to use an overused term). And I am not talking of hushing things down, rather give them a good airing so everyone can see what happened and why.
1. “During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours “ (GOM TV rule)
How many times have we seen manner mules, manner celebrations, or other semi-BM tactics that completely override this rule? And no one ever gets punished for them, because it's part of the game. People need thicker skin. So you're offended. Grab a tissue.
2. Every match needs to be played out no matter what.
Since when? Over the course of BW and SC2, how many times have we seen matches get crossed off the playing list because they're irrelevant to who moves on? Too many to keep count. The Nestea vs. Naniwa game shouldn't have been played at all, because there undoubtedly would have been "Oh Player X didn't try because the game didn't count, which is why he lost the game," regardless of how epic the game was. It's hardly Naniwa's fault for not caring about a game that didn't count towards the progression of the tournament. He played to win, not to make friends.
3. Naniwa isn't Code S/ pro-gamer material.
He moved to Korea, worked his ass off in every single game that mattered, and takes his job extremely seriously. Just to reiterate for emphasis, he frickin moved to Korea for this. He's not cuddly and the best-mannered, but he's damn focused and cares about succeeding. It's ridiculous that he arbitrarily loses his Code S spot because some people are angry at him. The rules were vague and he got screwed because people don't like him. If Huk did this, you better believe nothing would have happened to him.
On December 14 2011 22:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: 1. “During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours “ (GOM TV rule)
How many times have we seen manner mules, manner celebrations, or other semi-BM tactics that completely override this rule? And no one ever gets punished for them, because it's part of the game. People need thicker skin. So you're offended. Grab a tissue.
2. Every match needs to be played out no matter what.
Since when? Over the course of BW and SC2, how many times have we seen matches get crossed off the playing list because they're irrelevant to who moves on? Too many to keep count. The Nestea vs. Naniwa game shouldn't have been played at all, because there undoubtedly would have been "Oh Player X didn't try because the game didn't count, which is why he lost the game," regardless of how epic the game was. It's hardly Naniwa's fault for not caring about a game that didn't count towards the progression of the tournament. He played to win, not to make friends.
3. Naniwa isn't Code S/ pro-gamer material.
He moved to Korea, worked his ass off in every single game that mattered, and takes his job extremely seriously. Just to reiterate for emphasis, he frickin moved to Korea for this. He's not cuddly and the best-mannered, but he's damn focused and cares about succeeding. It's ridiculous that he arbitrarily loses his Code S spot because some people are angry at him. The rules were vague and he got screwed because people don't like him. If Huk did this, you better believe nothing would have happened to him.
1. You kidding dude? Talk about seeing the world in black and white. There is a clear difference between the two. One is showmanship, the other is plain idiocy.
2. I agree, but don't play a game at all if you're gonna throw it on purpose without giving even any effort on live television. Why show the world that you're gonna be a whiny loser instead of telling Mr. Chae that you don't wish to play. You don't want to play games for the fans but only for yourself? There's no reason GOM should cater to a player like that. It's their tournament and they get to choose who gets in. Take this up with the government if you don't think so.
3. He works hard, but fuck, being a pro gamer has just as much to do with being competitive as it does being a professional who acts like a professional. Naniwa wasn't acting like anything of the sort. And no, if huk did this he would have lost his code S spot for sure. Stop trying to argue that nonsense. If this was a korean who did it, they'd have gotten much worse. Choya played rock paper scissor games on ladder and he was banned from GSL. Rain didn't tell GOM he was leaving and they officially suspended him from GSL. Naniwa got what he deserved.
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game."
"Automatic Loss Rule
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game."
So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment.
You are pretty hilarious - you seem to insinuate that when Stephano said "gl Hero" they should've forfeited him. Anyways, common sense is a very important commodity to have.
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game."
"Automatic Loss Rule
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game."
So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment.
You are pretty hilarious - you seem to insinuate that when Stephano said "gl Hero" they should've forfeited him. Anyways, common sense is a very important commodity to have.
No, I didn't insinuate that or anything else, which I wrote earlier by the way.
In short: the blog said that the rules were never bent in his opinion, I provided a counter-example that bending of rules happens and can be a good thing. Strictly according to the rules it should have been auto-loss, I am glad it wasn't, that would have been ridiculous.
We need more and better, more refined rules in my opinion.
Emotions are running way too high at TL at the moment.
Okay, everyone needs to STOP with "what if," "should not have," and "would have been." You guys also need to stop making analogies to various other circumstances, including other professional sports, because you're only invoking a tiny frame of picture in a whole another world with different sets of rules and expectations.
So, people should just look at the situation at hand. - Naniwa and Nestea played a set that didn't affect the tournament standings for any of the players in that group. - Naniwa pulled a probe rush. - Many public figures in eSports, majority of them Korean, made criticisms and statements (some offensive). - Naniwa's Code S seed was revoked.
Given the circumstances, and also Naniwa's history of troubles and controversy, I would have (if I was "the man" of GOM) issued him a public warning to let him know that his actions were not well-received and should not be repeated. I've seen Naniwa's games and I believe he is a player of high calibre, capable of standing his own against the other top players around the world. All of that doesn't change the repercussions of the recent incident, and GOM decided to do what's best in their interest.
A lot of things were taken for granted, and continue to be taken for granted in the progaming scene. One of those things that is relevant to our discussion, is the mutual respect part. Mutual respect between the players and the tournament. There have been countless games in the past, especially in tournament group stages, where some games did not affect the tournament standings but were still played out. All of them, which were played out, did not raise the same level of controversy as this one. This is not only a big lesson for Naniwa to learn (which I hope he does), but also for GOM and the entire industry. With so many different personalities in the scene, one cannot expect every single player to obey by the unspoken rules, or the taken-for-granted things. It saddens me a little bit that more rules should be added instead of players acting out of mutual respect.
They need to write new rules. Naniwa did nothing wrong for what these rules state. If you were somehow emotionally hurt by watching him Probe Rush you have bigger things to worry about. I dislike Naniwa as a player but I've watched bw pro's probe rush and get treated like geniuses. People need to suck it up.
On December 15 2011 00:38 OmniEulogy wrote: They need to write new rules. Naniwa did nothing wrong for what these rules state. If you were somehow emotionally hurt by watching him Probe Rush you have bigger things to worry about. I dislike Naniwa as a player but I've watched bw pro's probe rush and get treated like geniuses. People need to suck it up.
BW is also a game that actually allows you to micro said probes, however.
On December 15 2011 00:38 OmniEulogy wrote: They need to write new rules. Naniwa did nothing wrong for what these rules state. If you were somehow emotionally hurt by watching him Probe Rush you have bigger things to worry about. I dislike Naniwa as a player but I've watched bw pro's probe rush and get treated like geniuses. People need to suck it up.
BW is also a game that actually allows you to micro said probes, however.
Touche. haha
On the other hand, I am genuinely interested in seeing BW pro's execute probe rushes. I've seen SCVs brought out to execute a bunker rush, and I've seen drones pulled for 1) enhancing an all-in attack with early zerglings or 2) defending a bunker rush then countering with all you've got. Never have I seen probes pulled en-masse for a pure probe rush in BW.
On December 15 2011 00:38 OmniEulogy wrote: They need to write new rules. Naniwa did nothing wrong for what these rules state. If you were somehow emotionally hurt by watching him Probe Rush you have bigger things to worry about. I dislike Naniwa as a player but I've watched bw pro's probe rush and get treated like geniuses. People need to suck it up.
BW is also a game that actually allows you to micro said probes, however.
Touche. haha
On the other hand, I am genuinely interested in seeing BW pro's execute probe rushes. I've seen SCVs brought out to execute a bunker rush, and I've seen drones pulled for 1) enhancing an all-in attack with early zerglings or 2) defending a bunker rush then countering with all you've got. Never have I seen probes pulled en-masse for a pure probe rush in BW.
Keep in mind that he didn't intend to win the game outright with his probes but he did in fact win the game.
On December 15 2011 00:38 OmniEulogy wrote: They need to write new rules. Naniwa did nothing wrong for what these rules state. If you were somehow emotionally hurt by watching him Probe Rush you have bigger things to worry about. I dislike Naniwa as a player but I've watched bw pro's probe rush and get treated like geniuses. People need to suck it up.
BW is also a game that actually allows you to micro said probes, however.
Touche. haha
On the other hand, I am genuinely interested in seeing BW pro's execute probe rushes. I've seen SCVs brought out to execute a bunker rush, and I've seen drones pulled for 1) enhancing an all-in attack with early zerglings or 2) defending a bunker rush then countering with all you've got. Never have I seen probes pulled en-masse for a pure probe rush in BW.