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LunaSea
Luxembourg369 Posts
I certainly hope so ! ^^ Like someone said in the Naniwa post, ceremonies can be counted as being bad mannered too sometimes, so there's no reason we shouldn't ban them either. My points is that GOM has rules that are pretty vague and that should be a LOT more precise to make the players and the viewers lives easier. In some ways this remembers me KespA in BW... | ||
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forSeohyun
504 Posts
On December 14 2011 21:49 Itsmedudeman wrote: I think the information is pretty clear on this one. In any case, people need to be punished, and in the end this is a much better experience for him than getting away with a warning so long as he realized what he did was wrong. I hope to god he doesn't think it's not his fault and he just goes on continuing to do shit the way he does because he will not last a year that way. Yes, the incident itself is glass clear. But: 1. The only official information is verbal and from the GOMTV stream translated by a third party translator. 2. Uncertainty if Naniwa really was awarded a seed from MLG, seems now he wasn't, this is also not from a GSL-employee as I understand it Hope John the translator or any other GSL-guy can get on the ball with this. I really don't know what is true, but as I said, I hope a lot of things get straightened out the coming day/days And this is more foreign viewer service than anything else. EDIT: thanks for a civilized discussion, I don't want to get near those other threads, no real discussion to be found there, if it is then it gets drowned. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On December 14 2011 21:56 StatorFlux wrote: Yes, the incident itself is glass clear. But: 1. The only official information is verbal and from the GOMTV stream translated by a third party translator. 2. Uncertainty if Naniwa really was awarded a seed from MLG, seems now he wasn't, this is also not from a GSL-employee as I understand it Hope John the translator or any other GSL-guy can get on the ball with this. I really don't know what is true, but as I said, I hope a lot of things get straightened out the coming day/days And this is more foreign viewer service than anything else. It's one of those "have common sense" things, and there was a rule that could describe this incident. "Players will not offend the other player/audience". It's not 100% defining, but a lot of people were outraged about the incident so it fits. Also, come on, it's common sense not to do this kind of stuff. Just like everyone knows when they walk into their job that they aren't gonna piss off their boss, this fits the same criteria. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game." "Automatic Loss Rule Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game." So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad. Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment. For stephano it didn`t change anything. He lost and writing "gg" would not have made him win the match. And "gl hero" can only be interpreted as a positive gesture. That`s a significant difference. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
Perhaps they could have played the match later, or work something out to play a grudge match, or at the very least inform the producers and Nestea that he just wouldn't be able to give Nestea and the audience the match they deserve. None of these thing happened as far as I know. The penalty is to lose his Code S seed for the 1st 2012 season. I think it is the right penalty, as it is not that severe. I do think Gomtv should contemplate removing a meaningless match though in any future setups and at least understand that the structure of this Blizzard Cup is flawed. Moving forward, I am sure that both parties learned a great deal from this event, and will not make this same mistake in the future. It happened, let's move forward now. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
On December 14 2011 21:55 LunaSea wrote: I'm offended when someone 4 gates me. Will my opponent be banned for this ? I certainly hope so ! ^^ Like someone said in the Naniwa post, ceremonies can be counted as being bad mannered too sometimes, so there's no reason we shouldn't ban them either. My points is that GOM has rules that are pretty vague and that should be a LOT more precise to make the players and the viewers lives easier. In some ways this remembers me KespA in BW... Laws/rules are often very vague and will be further specified by judges or other deciding councils. In this case by the GOMTV officials. | ||
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forSeohyun
504 Posts
On December 14 2011 22:01 zul wrote: For stephano it didn`t change anything. He lost and writing "gg" would not have made him win the match. And "gl hero" can only be interpreted as a positive gesture. That`s a significant difference. You said the rules never get bent and I said they did, that is all, it was an correction. I agree that it is a good bending of the rule not to punish MC and Stephano for those things. I agree that it is a good bending of the rule to punish Naniwa for those things. That is all I said. And that I personally prefer a bigger, more detailed list of offenses and punishments for these than rules which are easily bendable. (The nature of the punishment is of course another discussion entirely.) | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On December 14 2011 22:05 Masayume wrote: It would have been best if Naniwa just discussed the possibilities with Nestea about the match in the 30-40 mins before the match was supposed to be played. He could have (attempted to) work something out with Nestea and GOMtv by explaining that he just couldn't bring a good match in the mental state he was in. Exactly. IN fact, if he said he didn't want to play under the circumstances I think they would have let him off scott free without forcing him to play. It wasn't that they wanted to force him to play, it's that he played and showed that game to us that people are upset over. | ||
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Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
On December 14 2011 21:46 chokke wrote: Even if he won, lost or whatever using a proxy-gate, 4-gate, some 1-base all-in and won/lost, people would use the excuse that it wouldn't count and so on. People are saying ladder-games don't matter because nothing is on the line, well, that was what it was, a game with nothing on the line. So just with the up&down, games that doesn't affect the outcome shouldn't be played. And if there such a need for "epic grudgematch xD" between NesTea and Naniwa, it should be arranged as an isolated event, not a lucky outcome in groupplay where they play their last match against eachother (especially not when the outcome was like this). Do you really think so? Cause I dont! If you would have read my post then you would know that there was something onthe lne. Even Naniwas management were talking about the grudge match between those two. It was said that every match would have been played cause with such high calibre player you want to see every match cause each one matters. This was a grudge match while also being a tournament match. I dont know why this should be cancelled and play it out on another date. they were there, everyone was waiting for it and one of the players decided that it aint worth it. gomtv looses money, viewers, promotion etc Naniwas decision was one dimensional and disrespectful to everyone. this should get punished | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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forSeohyun
504 Posts
On December 14 2011 22:01 Itsmedudeman wrote: It's one of those "have common sense" things, and there was a rule that could describe this incident. "Players will not offend the other player/audience". It's not 100% defining, but a lot of people were outraged about the incident so it fits. Also, come on, it's common sense not to do this kind of stuff. Just like everyone knows when they walk into their job that they aren't gonna piss off their boss, this fits the same criteria. I agree with you, but there is a thousand people who doesn't and are very hard to convince, it would be easier to convince them maybe with the suggestions I've given. All I want to do is how to explore how these kinds of things can be minimized in terms of "hurting eSports" (to use an overused term). And I am not talking of hushing things down, rather give them a good airing so everyone can see what happened and why. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43460 Posts
How many times have we seen manner mules, manner celebrations, or other semi-BM tactics that completely override this rule? And no one ever gets punished for them, because it's part of the game. People need thicker skin. So you're offended. Grab a tissue. 2. Every match needs to be played out no matter what. Since when? Over the course of BW and SC2, how many times have we seen matches get crossed off the playing list because they're irrelevant to who moves on? Too many to keep count. The Nestea vs. Naniwa game shouldn't have been played at all, because there undoubtedly would have been "Oh Player X didn't try because the game didn't count, which is why he lost the game," regardless of how epic the game was. It's hardly Naniwa's fault for not caring about a game that didn't count towards the progression of the tournament. He played to win, not to make friends. 3. Naniwa isn't Code S/ pro-gamer material. He moved to Korea, worked his ass off in every single game that mattered, and takes his job extremely seriously. Just to reiterate for emphasis, he frickin moved to Korea for this. He's not cuddly and the best-mannered, but he's damn focused and cares about succeeding. It's ridiculous that he arbitrarily loses his Code S spot because some people are angry at him. The rules were vague and he got screwed because people don't like him. If Huk did this, you better believe nothing would have happened to him. | ||
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Keyboard Warrior
United States1178 Posts
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On December 14 2011 22:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: 1. “During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours “ (GOM TV rule) How many times have we seen manner mules, manner celebrations, or other semi-BM tactics that completely override this rule? And no one ever gets punished for them, because it's part of the game. People need thicker skin. So you're offended. Grab a tissue. 2. Every match needs to be played out no matter what. Since when? Over the course of BW and SC2, how many times have we seen matches get crossed off the playing list because they're irrelevant to who moves on? Too many to keep count. The Nestea vs. Naniwa game shouldn't have been played at all, because there undoubtedly would have been "Oh Player X didn't try because the game didn't count, which is why he lost the game," regardless of how epic the game was. It's hardly Naniwa's fault for not caring about a game that didn't count towards the progression of the tournament. He played to win, not to make friends. 3. Naniwa isn't Code S/ pro-gamer material. He moved to Korea, worked his ass off in every single game that mattered, and takes his job extremely seriously. Just to reiterate for emphasis, he frickin moved to Korea for this. He's not cuddly and the best-mannered, but he's damn focused and cares about succeeding. It's ridiculous that he arbitrarily loses his Code S spot because some people are angry at him. The rules were vague and he got screwed because people don't like him. If Huk did this, you better believe nothing would have happened to him. 1. You kidding dude? Talk about seeing the world in black and white. There is a clear difference between the two. One is showmanship, the other is plain idiocy. 2. I agree, but don't play a game at all if you're gonna throw it on purpose without giving even any effort on live television. Why show the world that you're gonna be a whiny loser instead of telling Mr. Chae that you don't wish to play. You don't want to play games for the fans but only for yourself? There's no reason GOM should cater to a player like that. It's their tournament and they get to choose who gets in. Take this up with the government if you don't think so. 3. He works hard, but fuck, being a pro gamer has just as much to do with being competitive as it does being a professional who acts like a professional. Naniwa wasn't acting like anything of the sort. And no, if huk did this he would have lost his code S spot for sure. Stop trying to argue that nonsense. If this was a korean who did it, they'd have gotten much worse. Choya played rock paper scissor games on ladder and he was banned from GSL. Rain didn't tell GOM he was leaving and they officially suspended him from GSL. Naniwa got what he deserved. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6250 Posts
On December 14 2011 20:58 StatorFlux wrote: But MC wrote "/" and Stephano wrote something to the effect of "gl Hero" when the GSL rules states "9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game." "Automatic Loss Rule Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game." So, of course the rules can be bent in both directions, sometimes good and sometimes bad. Naniwa did the wrong thing, but I can't say GSL handled the situation optimally. They are of course in the right to do what they want. I hope the good thing to come out of this is that they update their rule book and make clear rules what constitutes acceptable behaviour. It feels a bit loose at the moment. You are pretty hilarious - you seem to insinuate that when Stephano said "gl Hero" they should've forfeited him. Anyways, common sense is a very important commodity to have. | ||
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chokke
Norway228 Posts
On December 14 2011 22:56 Keyboard Warrior wrote: I understand the OP. Nani is getting paid to do it. Some respenct to fans and audience is necessary Proxy thor-rush sure is paying respect to viewers and sponsors | ||
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forSeohyun
504 Posts
On December 14 2011 23:24 Azzur wrote: You are pretty hilarious - you seem to insinuate that when Stephano said "gl Hero" they should've forfeited him. Anyways, common sense is a very important commodity to have. No, I didn't insinuate that or anything else, which I wrote earlier by the way. In short: the blog said that the rules were never bent in his opinion, I provided a counter-example that bending of rules happens and can be a good thing. Strictly according to the rules it should have been auto-loss, I am glad it wasn't, that would have been ridiculous. We need more and better, more refined rules in my opinion. Emotions are running way too high at TL at the moment. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
On December 14 2011 23:49 chokke wrote: Proxy thor-rush sure is paying respect to viewers and sponsors Yes it is. Lot`s of preparing thoughts and ingame actions were required to make this build work and for an entertaining game. gg wp. | ||
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chokke
Norway228 Posts
On December 14 2011 23:52 zul wrote: Yes it is. Lot`s of preparing thoughts and ingame actions were required to make this build work and for an entertaining game. gg wp. It was very fun to see. Just as fun seeing the average ZvZ with 10 minutes of ling/bling-wars and the unusual 4-gate in PvP on tal'darim. | ||
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OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
So, people should just look at the situation at hand. - Naniwa and Nestea played a set that didn't affect the tournament standings for any of the players in that group. - Naniwa pulled a probe rush. - Many public figures in eSports, majority of them Korean, made criticisms and statements (some offensive). - Naniwa's Code S seed was revoked. Given the circumstances, and also Naniwa's history of troubles and controversy, I would have (if I was "the man" of GOM) issued him a public warning to let him know that his actions were not well-received and should not be repeated. I've seen Naniwa's games and I believe he is a player of high calibre, capable of standing his own against the other top players around the world. All of that doesn't change the repercussions of the recent incident, and GOM decided to do what's best in their interest. A lot of things were taken for granted, and continue to be taken for granted in the progaming scene. One of those things that is relevant to our discussion, is the mutual respect part. Mutual respect between the players and the tournament. There have been countless games in the past, especially in tournament group stages, where some games did not affect the tournament standings but were still played out. All of them, which were played out, did not raise the same level of controversy as this one. This is not only a big lesson for Naniwa to learn (which I hope he does), but also for GOM and the entire industry. With so many different personalities in the scene, one cannot expect every single player to obey by the unspoken rules, or the taken-for-granted things. It saddens me a little bit that more rules should be added instead of players acting out of mutual respect. | ||
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