• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:26
CEST 18:26
KST 01:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL62Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event21Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL Practice Partners (Official) ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
The Casual Games of the Week Thread CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 701 users

It's been a year, and I still dunno how to play - Page 2

Blogs > kierpanda
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
November 14 2011 15:18 GMT
#21
When I started playing BW 1v1, something that gave me a lot of ideas was Sun Tzu's Art of War. It can't teach you to be good, but if you take it seriously and try to employ the lessons it teaches, you will learn from experience how these things are actually applied.

As it is, right now you're just wasting your time: You're not having fun, you're not improving, you're doing the same moronic thing every game. Your mechanics probably aren't even as good as you think they are. Take a step down from your ego and stop labeling losses as 'all-ins.' If you write a loss off like that you will not learn from it. That's why you're still bad.

Or you can just keep whining about all-ins or whatever and suck forever.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
MasterMonkey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States96 Posts
November 14 2011 15:24 GMT
#22
I hear ya man, I was in the same boat till just recently. I've been playing for about a year on and off and lately it all of a sudden just came to me in bursts. I would scout my opponent and say "oh I need to do this" or my mind would suddenly remember that I needed to expo or tech or something. Just keep playing man, find some friends, find a clan, be active with others and ask for criticism. It really helps. Otherwise, one thing I like doing is commentating games to myself out loud while watching replays. That's always cool because you can see everyone's view and you say "HOLY SHIT HUK!!! YOU NEED THAT TEMPLAR ARCHIVES UP ASAP!!" when you see infestors and broodlords or whatever. This will help you in game when you see the same stuff you will remember that you need to get crackin'!

Either way, it's just a game and have fun with it. Starcraft 2 isn't the only important thing in the world.
Keep your oars in the brothel where they belong.
hp.Shell
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2527 Posts
November 14 2011 15:28 GMT
#23
Yeah, Chef's right. Definitely read the Art of War, it will help a bit. Also watch your replays and look when your opponent moves out to attack you. You may just find a trend. It's much easier in SC2 than it was in BW because of the in-game clock, so use this to your advantage.
Please PM me with any songs you like that you think I haven't heard before!
ins(out)side
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
220 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 16:36:41
November 14 2011 16:35 GMT
#24
Some food for thought....

1) Keep practicing and learn how to play to get better as opposed to playing just to win. By this I mean, say you're playing a game and because of some kind of harass you start to fall behind in your build. While some people are inclined to simply quit early a la Idra, I've found that sticking around to work on as many aspects of your game as possible is MUCh more beneficial for the low level player. For instance, I was watching Sase play and he stuck around in a game where he clearly had no chance to win. However, he stated afterwards that he needed to work on his blink micro and some other stuff and thats why he stayed. So as you can see, good players make the best use out of the time provided regardless of whether or not they are going to win. This is absolutely crucial to climb the ladder and learn the various nuances of the game.

2) Watch GSL, MLG and your favorite players whenever they stream. Ok so there are other tournaments to watch and I recommend you include them in your studies BUT I can't emphasize enough that the GSL is the pinnacle of SC2 tournament competition. I'm sure some will disagree, but if I had to only choose one major tournament to follow regularly it would be GSL hands down.

As for streaming, I've found this to be more helpful than watching any tournament regardless of how awesome it might be. Seeing what a high level player sees and watching EXACTLY how they play the game from their point of view is extremely valuable. I've learned TONS from watching my favorite Protoss players stream. Its also given me a sort of benchmark to aim for in terms of mechanical skill, decision making, and micro management.

3) Study replays or post them on TL to have them analyzed for you. As many people have pointed out, this is super important. Learning how to watch your replays and figure out what cost you the game can sometimes be difficult but I've found that it gets much easier over time and pretty soon, what with all the GSL and streaming you watch, it becomes incredibly easy to see where you went wrong in your play.

4) Get a coach and take a few lessons. I was in Gold when I decided to get lesson pack from VPTang. He showed me a powerful two base colo build along with a 3 gate pressure build that enabled me to rather handily make top 8 in Platinum. After just one lesson. It only took 10 days or so once I mastered the build timings and the micro required to hold off early pressure. The great thing about a GM/high masters level coach is that they DO understand SC2 logic and can answer the questions you have. Ask your coach as many questions as you can think of.

OK so some of my suggestions are redundant in comparison to what others have told you, but hopefully these little tidbits can help steer you in the right direction. Good luck!

edit: extra word removed
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
November 14 2011 18:33 GMT
#25
Watch a replay that contains both good play and a style you want to learn. Take notes on timings, transitions, and the decision making. Copy everything. Learn what to do, and the why of it will come with experience. When you watch replays or VoDs, look for how players that play the way you want to handle situations you have trouble with. Find examples, and emulate better players to give you direction on what you can try to do.

Watch your own games, look for places where your play falls short from example games of what you're working towards. Did you forget to position your army well, engage poorly, slip in macro, forget tech, react wrong to a situation?
kierpanda
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States757 Posts
November 14 2011 18:39 GMT
#26
On November 14 2011 19:37 Theleech wrote:
I've only recently started watching my replays and really tried to study them. The biggest thing I try to learn is when I am ahead and where the game is after a big event. I try to attack around the same time and always watch the replay after and see if I am ahead, behind, or if I should have made the attack at all based on what I saw.

As for cheese I feel comfortable against most everything now. I've tried to learn what my scouting means exactly. For instance if I scout a Zerg and they are still getting gas after a pool is finished I prepare for a baneling bust. If I scout a Protoss and see they only have one gas by the time my scout dies or I leave the base I expect 4 gate. I always try to prepare for the worst.

What kind of cheese are you losing to exactly?

Edit: I'm mid diamond by the way



It's usually a protoss all-in.
I got warp gate prismed 4gated, some sort of 3gate stargate build.
I have no idea. it was weird.
I've never seen it before.

I can hold a 4gate no problem; it's just these variants that are catching me off guard.
I cook things! :3 | Twitter: @kierpanda | www.eatgamelive.com
palanq
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States761 Posts
November 14 2011 18:40 GMT
#27
might I suggest ver's guide?
time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
kierpanda
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States757 Posts
November 14 2011 18:49 GMT
#28
On November 15 2011 00:18 Chef wrote:
When I started playing BW 1v1, something that gave me a lot of ideas was Sun Tzu's Art of War. It can't teach you to be good, but if you take it seriously and try to employ the lessons it teaches, you will learn from experience how these things are actually applied.

As it is, right now you're just wasting your time: You're not having fun, you're not improving, you're doing the same moronic thing every game. Your mechanics probably aren't even as good as you think they are. Take a step down from your ego and stop labeling losses as 'all-ins.' If you write a loss off like that you will not learn from it. That's why you're still bad.

Or you can just keep whining about all-ins or whatever and suck forever.


My judgement on mechanics isn't my own -- it's what my higher level friends have told me. My macro/micro isn't solid, but it's decent enough. It's just the fact that I'm just going through the motions. I honestly believe I'm only in platinum because of my macro/micro alone. Not because I actually understand the game. And that's really not saying much, is it?

Honestly, in no way am I trying to be arrogant about my skills. I'm fucking platinum dude -- I have no reason to brag what so ever.


I did lose macro games, but I did lose to a bunch of all-ins. In my opinion, cutting probes at 20 and just making units all day long is considered an all-in. It's just kind of annoying when you face all-in, after all-in after all-in. I actually thank people for going a macro game with me -- because all-ins are fucking annoying. It's a free win if you can defend it, but it sucks balls when you lose to these kind of strats.
I cook things! :3 | Twitter: @kierpanda | www.eatgamelive.com
kierpanda
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States757 Posts
November 14 2011 18:55 GMT
#29
On November 14 2011 20:11 Seeker wrote:
All I can say is do NOT give up.

Just keep on going for it.
In my BW days, I literally threw bitch fits cause my brother would always beat me. And his response was "I play more games than u, what did u expect?"

So, just keep going for it man. You literally just got to keep laddering until your gaming senses get better and better per game.


I'm definitely not giving up. It's just really annoying. :\

I really want to get better specifically to get my boyfriend back into playing. He stopped playing because a lot of his friends quit too and he lost his really good practice partners. @_@
I cook things! :3 | Twitter: @kierpanda | www.eatgamelive.com
kierpanda
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States757 Posts
November 14 2011 18:55 GMT
#30
BTW -- thanks everyone for the input. I'm not giving up, it's just gonna take me some time to learn how to analyze what I'm doing and what my opponent is doing.
I cook things! :3 | Twitter: @kierpanda | www.eatgamelive.com
phiinix
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1169 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:33:14
November 14 2011 19:32 GMT
#31
If your logic is really that bad, start by not listening to the starcraft media for a while. No more tl strategy section, no more day9, no more streams or events. I think you problem is that you're missing a fundamental concept that everyone gets and doesn't even mention in any of the above because it's so basic. My suggestion would be to play lots and lots of games and try to figure out the game on yourself. Forget the replay analysis, forget the strategies, forget the builds, and most importantly, forget your rank and league. Builds are the optimization of a tactic to help win the game. If you can't understand why something is good, don't do it. Just do what you think is good. Ultimately when you've tanked to gold league and played 300 games you'll realize what strategy is.

I started off making my own build: a 3 rax +1 stim with 1 ghost in tvp off of one base (not cheese since this was in august, the only cheese that existed was tlo's 2 gate proxie and cannon rushing). I thought that if i could scan and land an emp on the protoss ramp, i could kill all the sentry energy to stop force fields so i could run my marines and marauders up the ramp and kill everything. Cool right? This doesn't actually work if protoss spreads units or expanded early enough to have more units even against emp, but that's the indirect point. The main idea is that I didn't come to tl to ask someone why I was losing with my strat. No one said "you're one basing, if protoss holds with either of the above statements, you're dead". I figured it out myself. I slowly, over the course of about 40 tvps, that if protoss had too many units, it wouldn't matter if i got the emp off. I learned that if i missed the emp, or didn't hit enough units, I would die. Think about it. If i played 30 tvps and 33% on the ladder, that's like 100 games to learn something that seems really dumb now. 100 games was like a week and a half of play to learn that. But I went from nothing to low masters now, and I've effectively played 7 months of starcraft, which is pretty good for most standards (absolutely no playing when it's not winter break or summer break, my account has about 700 league wins).

If you're going to learn the basics, you have to be basic.
Servius_Fulvius
Profile Joined August 2009
United States947 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 22:13:31
November 14 2011 21:56 GMT
#32
Are you using strategies you came up with yourself, or did you steal them from a pro? If you're doing a build order steal then it's easy not to fully understand the logic behind all the actions. If it's your own strategies then the problems you have understanding the game will corrupt your strategy.

I remember being in your shoes a few years ago when I started BW. I spent an entire summer learning how to learn about the game and then another 6 months learning how to look into a strategy. Now that I've been playing BW and SC2 for 2.5 years understanding the game isn't nearly as hard as developing the proper mechanics.

This is how I think about it: SC2 is a game about advantages and disadvantages. Every strategy you use will net several of each. Deviations deal with the multitude of strategies my opponents may use. It's hard to think about what you're going to do WHEN a situation arises, so instead of thinking on your feet try and have a plan going in. Here is an example of the "theory" behind my ZvT strategy:
+ Show Spoiler +
My ZvT strategy of choice is zergling/infestor into crackling/infestor/ultra. I first learned about it through Mrbitter's stream and TL post in Jan/Feb. Stephano recently used it to great effect in his IPL win.
The rough B/O goes to the tune of: Early expand, take one gas, spend first 100 gas on ling speed, spend 2nd 100 gas on lair, take second gas and throw down two extractors. Upgrade melee and carapace. When lair finishes take remaining gas and put down an infestation pit. Research pathogen glands. Keep upgrading lings, get a third and a macro hatch, tech to hive, and start banking gas for +3/+3 and adrenal glands. Also put down ultra cavern and upgrade chitanous plating. Mass ultra and crackling. Use mobility to flank and try to deny terran map control. The rest of the game is an expansion war with fully upgraded armies. Don't forget to inject!

Theory: Zerglings are very mobile and keep map control until siege tanks and marine balls are out. I want the minimum amount of lings necessary to maximize drone production. Ideally I want three saturated bases with a fourth ready to accept drones from my depleted main. 70 drones is my goal.
*This strategy is economic and tech-heavy, so it is weak to early rushes in the form I gave above.
*A terran midgame attack with tanks and marines (9 minutes and above) will be met with infestors and lings. Infestors can fugal marines, volley infested terrans on top of tanks (or in marine balls to induce splash damage from siege). My upgrades should be superior and, so long as my injects are timely, I will have enough larva to reinforce an attack on my front.
*In a late-game scenario I need to be abusing my mobility and attacking weak points of the terran base.
*I should never attack a terran siege-line head on unless they have no more bases and I can instantly remax.
*Ultras tank and lings dps

Deviations
*First and foremost, I want the least amount of units possible, but until I've practiced against a strategy enough times I feel it's best to overdefend and not outright lose the game. Overdefense also leaves a bunch of leftover forces that can counterattack AND a great defense so I can make up for lost droning time.
*Hellion opening requires a spine, defensive evo's, and extra queen, and a few extra lings
*More than 6 Hellions, or BFH, require roach warren and a few roaches. Constant scouting will reveal these intentions
*Banshees and cloaked banshees require extra queens (4-5 total since energy is usually too low for transfuse) and a couple spores at each base
*1/1/1 needs extra queens and a lot of lings to defend banshee attacks/hellion drops/marine rushes simultaneously
*Beware of 9 minute marine tank timing attack. This is more of an anti-mutalisk attack, so be sure to make nothing but zerglings when I see this moving out.
*1 base marine/tank all-ins require three spines at the front (extended by creep tumors). These spines will keep terran busy while more forces hatch. 40-50 1/1 lings will dominate this all-in. Deny terran expansion and drone up like crazy once defended.
*Mech play should be scouted. Reaction is to expand to a quick fourth and have a roach-heavy army with broodlords on the way. This is the only strategy that requires a total change of strategy Ling/infestor is better-suited for a bio-heavy army. This change isn't very different from BW where pros went three-hatch muta versus terran bio/tank and mass hydra versus tank/goliath/valkyrie/vulture.
*Marauders suck against zerglings and I only ever see them in bizarre 1-base all-ins. Zergling numbers will compensate for concussive shells and, since marauders cannot mass as easily as reactor'd marines, I could have a few infestors out to bolster the defense.
rops are very effective since I have little air control. Leave a small pack of lings at each base and have ovies positioned to identify drops.

Good things to know:
*I have the more mobile army. If the terran army is defending the third I can send about 16 lings into the natural and kill scv's. Actions like this will either delay the terran army or send them into all-in mode. Expand or make a ton of units accordingly, but never sacrifice a huge army since it's not cost-effective.
*Constant scouting will show how much they expand. Early third bases almost always means more scv's and less units (so drone up and expand myself).
*Vikings will deny overlord spread, so if opponent sends them out make a spore and spine at each base and retreat overlords to safety.
*4 burrowed infestors with full energy can cough up enough infested terrans to take out a planetary. It's also fun to cause tank splash damage to other tanks, marines, or scv's by dropping one of these nearby. Sometimes chain fungals on an scv line is better than infested terrans since the scv's have a chance to run away from beach balls before they hatch.
*When one of my bases is under attack it is best to protect the drones. Running them away or using burrow is the best. It's a lot easier to recover the economic loss when only the hatchery needs replacing.
*Most terran expansions are built elsewhere and floated to the location. Have a ling on hold position, overlord dumping creep, a burrowed ling, or all of the above to delay the expansion and act as an indicator. Ovies should be at every expansion by the late game unless cleared out by marines or vikings.

This is by no means complete, but it shows you how much thought is involved in each step of the game. All the deviations I mentioned were from personal experience.
kierpanda
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States757 Posts
November 14 2011 22:59 GMT
#33
On November 15 2011 06:56 Servius_Fulvius wrote:
Are you using strategies you came up with yourself, or did you steal them from a pro? If you're doing a build order steal then it's easy not to fully understand the logic behind all the actions. If it's your own strategies then the problems you have understanding the game will corrupt your strategy.

I remember being in your shoes a few years ago when I started BW. I spent an entire summer learning how to learn about the game and then another 6 months learning how to look into a strategy. Now that I've been playing BW and SC2 for 2.5 years understanding the game isn't nearly as hard as developing the proper mechanics.

This is how I think about it: SC2 is a game about advantages and disadvantages. Every strategy you use will net several of each. Deviations deal with the multitude of strategies my opponents may use. It's hard to think about what you're going to do WHEN a situation arises, so instead of thinking on your feet try and have a plan going in. Here is an example of the "theory" behind my ZvT strategy:
+ Show Spoiler +
My ZvT strategy of choice is zergling/infestor into crackling/infestor/ultra. I first learned about it through Mrbitter's stream and TL post in Jan/Feb. Stephano recently used it to great effect in his IPL win.
The rough B/O goes to the tune of: Early expand, take one gas, spend first 100 gas on ling speed, spend 2nd 100 gas on lair, take second gas and throw down two extractors. Upgrade melee and carapace. When lair finishes take remaining gas and put down an infestation pit. Research pathogen glands. Keep upgrading lings, get a third and a macro hatch, tech to hive, and start banking gas for +3/+3 and adrenal glands. Also put down ultra cavern and upgrade chitanous plating. Mass ultra and crackling. Use mobility to flank and try to deny terran map control. The rest of the game is an expansion war with fully upgraded armies. Don't forget to inject!

Theory: Zerglings are very mobile and keep map control until siege tanks and marine balls are out. I want the minimum amount of lings necessary to maximize drone production. Ideally I want three saturated bases with a fourth ready to accept drones from my depleted main. 70 drones is my goal.
*This strategy is economic and tech-heavy, so it is weak to early rushes in the form I gave above.
*A terran midgame attack with tanks and marines (9 minutes and above) will be met with infestors and lings. Infestors can fugal marines, volley infested terrans on top of tanks (or in marine balls to induce splash damage from siege). My upgrades should be superior and, so long as my injects are timely, I will have enough larva to reinforce an attack on my front.
*In a late-game scenario I need to be abusing my mobility and attacking weak points of the terran base.
*I should never attack a terran siege-line head on unless they have no more bases and I can instantly remax.
*Ultras tank and lings dps

Deviations
*First and foremost, I want the least amount of units possible, but until I've practiced against a strategy enough times I feel it's best to overdefend and not outright lose the game. Overdefense also leaves a bunch of leftover forces that can counterattack AND a great defense so I can make up for lost droning time.
*Hellion opening requires a spine, defensive evo's, and extra queen, and a few extra lings
*More than 6 Hellions, or BFH, require roach warren and a few roaches. Constant scouting will reveal these intentions
*Banshees and cloaked banshees require extra queens (4-5 total since energy is usually too low for transfuse) and a couple spores at each base
*1/1/1 needs extra queens and a lot of lings to defend banshee attacks/hellion drops/marine rushes simultaneously
*Beware of 9 minute marine tank timing attack. This is more of an anti-mutalisk attack, so be sure to make nothing but zerglings when I see this moving out.
*1 base marine/tank all-ins require three spines at the front (extended by creep tumors). These spines will keep terran busy while more forces hatch. 40-50 1/1 lings will dominate this all-in. Deny terran expansion and drone up like crazy once defended.
*Mech play should be scouted. Reaction is to expand to a quick fourth and have a roach-heavy army with broodlords on the way. This is the only strategy that requires a total change of strategy Ling/infestor is better-suited for a bio-heavy army. This change isn't very different from BW where pros went three-hatch muta versus terran bio/tank and mass hydra versus tank/goliath/valkyrie/vulture.
*Marauders suck against zerglings and I only ever see them in bizarre 1-base all-ins. Zergling numbers will compensate for concussive shells and, since marauders cannot mass as easily as reactor'd marines, I could have a few infestors out to bolster the defense.
rops are very effective since I have little air control. Leave a small pack of lings at each base and have ovies positioned to identify drops.

Good things to know:
*I have the more mobile army. If the terran army is defending the third I can send about 16 lings into the natural and kill scv's. Actions like this will either delay the terran army or send them into all-in mode. Expand or make a ton of units accordingly, but never sacrifice a huge army since it's not cost-effective.
*Constant scouting will show how much they expand. Early third bases almost always means more scv's and less units (so drone up and expand myself).
*Vikings will deny overlord spread, so if opponent sends them out make a spore and spine at each base and retreat overlords to safety.
*4 burrowed infestors with full energy can cough up enough infested terrans to take out a planetary. It's also fun to cause tank splash damage to other tanks, marines, or scv's by dropping one of these nearby. Sometimes chain fungals on an scv line is better than infested terrans since the scv's have a chance to run away from beach balls before they hatch.
*When one of my bases is under attack it is best to protect the drones. Running them away or using burrow is the best. It's a lot easier to recover the economic loss when only the hatchery needs replacing.
*Most terran expansions are built elsewhere and floated to the location. Have a ling on hold position, overlord dumping creep, a burrowed ling, or all of the above to delay the expansion and act as an indicator. Ovies should be at every expansion by the late game unless cleared out by marines or vikings.

This is by no means complete, but it shows you how much thought is involved in each step of the game. All the deviations I mentioned were from personal experience.


Stealing from a Pro.

I'm using a variant of SelecT's FE build against protoss:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/SeleCT_2_Rax_FE_(vs._Protoss)
but it's with the 2 marauder, 1 marine pressure ... I don't remember what build that's from. :\? If anyone knows the exact build, please link me. <3

Either that or I go just triple rax.

and I've been experimenting with MKP's "really a lot of hellions" (thx tastetosis) build, and hellion into 2port banshee build (SC used this against NesTea this season, i believe?) against hellions.

TvT I just go 111.


I'm just now understanding the theory and correlation between unit compositions -- pretty much what you're explaining but from the TvZ side.


Thanks for the break down!

At least I know what you zergs are thinking now. :p


I cook things! :3 | Twitter: @kierpanda | www.eatgamelive.com
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
November 14 2011 23:23 GMT
#34
What level are you? Setting aside unit compositions and build orders, there's a mindset to playing economy based strategy games that will allow you to run over people, even when you choose a sub-optimal build order or pick the wrong units. The best way to look at it is honestly through Plants vs Zombies. You establish the most lucrative economy you can, while spending as few resources as possible to stay alive. It's more suited to Zerg, where the number of openings is quite limited and you have drone cycles, but it works for all the races to some extent. Terran needs some amount of constant production because they can't instantly build an army, but you can still out-expand your opponent at most levels of the game. Scouting and awareness are crucial to this play style so you know what your opponent is capable of doing, and roughly when they'll do it.

It's not specific to openings either. Unless you're doing a lot of early pressure or an all-in (which will get you wins but are not very useful for learning the core of the game), you should still maintain this mentality. Low level players tend to be extremely passive, and are insulated inside their base, which means they have little map information/scouting and their expansions are late. That is when you invest in double sunflowers, before the wave of zombies becomes too significant. You, meanwhile, have kept an eye on the map and your marines or hellions and spread around their possible expansions, and you've used some of your OC energy to see what units they're making.

Early on, you will die a lot to all ins while you're figuring it out, but eventually you'll know what's necessary to survive that all-in, and will have the rest of your resources devoted to your next sunflower/expansion. The extra income then gets used to fund your new production buildings and economy. That mindset, properly executed, will carry you quite far even if you're building the wrong units. Once you've got that core down, then you can figure out how to incorporate harassment and other techniques to distract/slow/mindfuck your opponents.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 23:55:18
November 14 2011 23:43 GMT
#35
Things like this are why blizzard needs to allow more people to watch the same replay. So you can go over the game with someone who knows what you were supposed to be doing and tell you at each moment what you should have done.

What should help you is something similar. Either share an exemplary replay that you lost and don't really know why, try to analyze it, post that and ask for help from people that are better than you. They should tell you what you should have done in each situation.

Or, play vs some people close to your skill and have someone better than you obs and tell you what you should be doing trough the whole duration of the game (ofc, so the other player doesn't hear it). It helps a lot. And you can later watch the replay and see the situations and what you're supposed to do. Also, while playing, pause the game when you're kinda lost, and take a minute or two to think what you should be doing, and only then resume.



Matchup specific, I find this build pretty easy versus zergs, doesn't require much micro and is pretty robust:
15 gas 2 marines -> reactor-> 6 marines-> switch reactor to factory, CC on expo if safe otherwise in base -> CC about 50% done, add 2nd gas, 2 factories with reactor -> mass hellion, later add 2x factory with tech lab start pre-igniter, just mass mass hellions, then start making thors, maybe a few tanks. add barracks for making support units -> make marines if zerg goes muta, make mauraders if roach. upgrade only armor I think, not attack.

^^ you can actually kill roaches with hellions with this build, it's insane. it's my variation of a build someone recently used vs DRG to decimate him, but I didn't refine it yet since I can't play sc2 atm. T_T
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
FEL
12:00
Cracov 2025: Qualifier #2
CranKy Ducklings638
IndyStarCraft 397
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 544
IndyStarCraft 397
Hui .257
MindelVK 22
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3737
Rain 3494
Shuttle 1223
Horang2 1155
Bisu 994
EffOrt 839
Stork 333
TY 329
Mini 279
Hyuk 254
[ Show more ]
Soma 167
GuemChi 158
hero 110
Barracks 88
ToSsGirL 85
Hyun 64
GoRush 58
PianO 50
sas.Sziky 46
Free 26
Terrorterran 15
HiyA 10
ivOry 6
Stormgate
BeoMulf138
Dota 2
qojqva3263
League of Legends
singsing2811
Counter-Strike
byalli237
edward83
kRYSTAL_59
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King66
Chillindude50
Westballz15
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor685
Liquid`Hasu479
Other Games
Gorgc3448
FrodaN1571
ArmadaUGS112
KnowMe92
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick13825
EGCTV1633
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 11
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3573
• Ler144
Other Games
• WagamamaTV540
• Shiphtur194
Upcoming Events
BSL: ProLeague
1h 34m
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Wardi Open
18h 34m
Monday Night Weeklies
23h 34m
Replay Cast
1d 7h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 17h
WardiTV European League
1d 23h
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
FEL
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.