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Voicing an unpopular opinion can always be hard, regardless of what it actually is. I remember arguing that homosexuals should be able to adopt many years ago in school, it was not a popular opinion but what i did was support it with facts and good arguments. Now when you basically insult other peoples passion, and their lifestyles, you are not being very reasonable, i started playing counter-strike 10 years ago, I have been following the scene since i was 13 years old, i know basically everything about it, but i don't claim it to be the savior, the starter, or the end all be all of esports, i appreciate other games and what they have done for the legitimization of this wonderful thing. I can equally enjoy a cs match or quake match or a CoH, or a SC2 or maybe a Marvel VS Capcom match. And i don't claim that any of these are the ESPORTS "god" I know every single game has contributed to this cause and the position we are in atm.
Now, if someone would disagree with me on any of my opinions or destroy my arguments, i would not decide to quit everything, I have followed with a passion for years. I would either come up with some counter arguments or i would simply ignore them, because their opinions where shit. Now if someone actually counterargumented better then me, i would be inclined to agree with their opinion instead of just giving up when i might be proven "wrong"
I have enjoyed your translations of korean netizen, and I have also enjoyed your input from Korea, I am sad to see you go, but i wish you luck in whatever you choose to do from now on. I just hope you one day will come back and provide us with more quality content.
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Major respect man for coming out saying what you want. Although i don't agree with it, it definitely took some courage to post that.
GL to your future.
EDIT: is destiny on reddit neodestiny? if so then is he quitting too?
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On October 30 2011 11:21 Hinanawi wrote:
Did you really expect the SC2 kiddies who never followed BW to understand your post?
Either way, you decided to put yourself out there as a promoter of SC2, so you're supposed to grin and pretend that you think it's the best game ever. Take lessons from Tasteless.
Do you really think that it's 'SC2 kiddies' who disagreed the most visibly? No, it's the people who have been around Esports for ages, in all its forms.
Let me make an analogy:
A football player comes on TL to tell everyone that video games aren't sports, and only real, physical sports are really important - video gamers are just nerds and little kids. You reply, no, fuck that, the people involved in esports give their heart and soul as much as any physical sportsman, and they deserve as much respect both as players and in their medium as anyone else. That's this situation, only some people are in favor of pushing down other games because they're not on the scale of BW? BW is the biggest and best esport, but you can only say that because of all the other esports it surpassed - they're still esports.
Good lord people, if you've followed BW, then you know how hard people are working to make esports into something real. How can you then go and dismiss people you are working on doing the same thing for the games they love? If you're a fan of BW, you should be supporting every instance of esports, big or small, because your history is built on the joy of a game that succeeded.
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Translator is one of the hardest job on the planet, especially in a live event. You did a fantastic job. I think people can be rude sometimes and you shouldn't take their comments personally. Like they say, "haters gonna hate". You need to continue to do what you like to do, and if translation is what you like, forget all the comments and do it. Don't quit, even if you won't be involved in the SC2 scene anymore.
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On October 30 2011 11:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:21 Hinanawi wrote:
Did you really expect the SC2 kiddies who never followed BW to understand your post?
Either way, you decided to put yourself out there as a promoter of SC2, so you're supposed to grin and pretend that you think it's the best game ever. Take lessons from Tasteless. Do you really think that it's 'SC2 kiddies' who disagreed the most visibly?
Reading over the Reddit thread? Yeah, it's divided into two groups of people: People who get paid to promote SC2, and people who know jack shit about Brood War.
Milkis should have expected this reaction if he spent even a little bit of time on the SC2 forums or Reddit SC, though.
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On October 30 2011 11:16 WhiteraCares wrote:
Did I miss something?
Pretty much 95% of all posts ive read that relates to Milkis has been positive.
Reddit hurt his wiwwle fewwings  and now he is going into hiding. I'm not one for being macho but grow some balls, its the internet, and you Milkis of all people should know how the internet works. If you criticize people or their passions, be ready for criticism back.
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Honestly, if I wrote up a huge diatribe and it was slammed by the community, I'd be far more upset that djWHEAT didn't like it. His opinion actually matters. The random people on reddit just wanted to get a rise out of Milkis, and it worked.
I liked Milkis and really appreciated all the work he did for the community. But we really shouldn't humor what looks an awful lot like a tantrum just because some people were mean to him on the internet.
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On October 30 2011 11:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:21 Hinanawi wrote:
Did you really expect the SC2 kiddies who never followed BW to understand your post?
Either way, you decided to put yourself out there as a promoter of SC2, so you're supposed to grin and pretend that you think it's the best game ever. Take lessons from Tasteless. Let me make an analogy: A football player comes on TL to tell everyone that video games aren't sports, and only real, physical sports are really important - video gamers are just nerds and little kids. You reply, no, fuck that, the people involved in esports give their heart and soul as much as any physical sportsman, and they deserve as much respect both as players and in their medium as anyone else. That's this situation, only some people are in favor of pushing down other games because they're not on the scale of BW? BW is the biggest and best esport, but you can only say that because of all the other esports it surpassed - they're still esports. Good lord people, if you've followed BW, then you know how hard people are working to make esports into something real. How can you then go and dismiss people you are working on doing the same thing for the games they love? If you're a fan of BW, you should be supporting every instance of esports, big or small, because your history is built on the joy of a game that succeeded.
Except that's not the situation at all. Milkis said that AS OF NOW, nothing can come close to Brood War as an esport, which is 100% correct. He EXPRESSED HIS HOPE that SC2 will someday be able to match the lofty heights that BW reached.
If you're a fan of BW, you should be supporting every instance of esports
This is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I do not give a damn about 'esports', I give a damn about Brood War, and at the moment, one other competitive video game (which I will leave unnamed to not clutter my point). What, just because something is a video game and people try to make it a competitive sport, I'm supposed to support it? I don't like watching Halo, CoD, LoL, SC2, etc. and I'm sure as hell not going to support them just because they're 'esports'.
I have no doubt that someday another game will rise up and become a true hit the way BW did, and if I'll be cheering it all the way if I enjoy watching that game. That doesn't mean I'm going to hop on the 'ESPORTS' bandwagon and support any competitive video game just because it's a competitive video game.
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Milkis is right, no other esport is put on the level of real sports the way BW is in Korea. Sure Street Fighter is popular everywhere, CS is huge in Europe, DotA in SE Asia, but none of them are a "national sport" like BW is, none of them are such a huge part of a country's culture. Sure there's plenty of progamers that work just as hard and have just as many fans as Flash or Jaedong or Boxer, but there's no progamer that's a national celebrity like Boxer is, who's recognized by people who don't even care about the game. Would Justin Wong or Grubby or cArn even be recognized by a famous actress in their country, yet alone marry one?
That's what makes BW different. You can respect other esports without denying that BW is the only one to become a cultural phenomenon.
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You shouldn't let complete strangers drive your life! If this is what you enjoy then don't leave. If you don't enjoy it then that's your choice.
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I'll give him the weekend to cool off, he'll be back, if not, then good luck to him
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whoa, what even happened?
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On October 30 2011 11:41 jalstar wrote:
Milkis is right, no other esport is put on the level of real sports the way BW is in Korea. Sure Street Fighter is popular everywhere, CS is huge in Europe, DotA in SE Asia, but none of them are a "national sport" like BW is, none of them are such a huge part of a country's culture. Sure there's plenty of progamers that work just as hard and have just as many fans as Flash or Jaedong or Boxer, but there's no progamer that's a national celebrity like Boxer is, who's recognized by people who don't even care about the game. Would Justin Wong or Grubby or cArn even be recognized by a famous actress in their country, yet alone marry one?
That's what makes BW different. You can respect other esports without denying that BW is the only one to become a cultural phenomenon.
That doesn't make the conclusion that he came to correct though. Just because soccer isn't a phenomenon in the USA doesn't mean that it isn't a sport.
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I feel I owe all of you an apology.
It is, after all, my fault for getting Milkis into BW and TL.net in the first place. He does not know I'm making this post, but this is something that must be said. In my wildest dreams I never thought it would come this far - hell, I had no idea he'd even start translating simple Fomos articles when he first created his TL account. In reality, I just wanted to see him improve at BW so I didn't feel so bad beating him all the damn time.
Even so, I take full responsibility for anything you feel he has done to harm you. Please, feel free to direct your anger toward me. I've unleashed this upon you, and you deserve to know who to blame for it.
I also have to apologize for not getting more involved in the community myself. If I had, anything Milkis might have said about BW, SC2, and esports would have paled in comparison to my regular, scathing remarks on the subject. He could have kept doing what he loved to do: quietly providing services to the community where they were lacking. In this aspect, not only did I wrong the community, but Milkis as well.
Along those lines, I ultimately also feel responsible for influencing and giving support to his thoughts on the many controversial topics that have come up regarding BW and SC2. My antagonism toward Blizzard for bastardizing everything I once loved in the name of immediate profits skewed any conversation on the topic we might have had. To this point, I've secretly hoped for SC2's demise in Korea the entire time, and I have no doubt that this has troubled Milkis' thoughts regularly.
In the end, I don't expect to be forgiven, but I feel that I have to apologize for seemingly harming so many of you (indirectly or not). I await whatever punishment the community deems fitting.
Truly sorry,
Alex K
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I loved you....then you posted this.
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On October 30 2011 11:46 Loki57 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:41 jalstar wrote:
Milkis is right, no other esport is put on the level of real sports the way BW is in Korea. Sure Street Fighter is popular everywhere, CS is huge in Europe, DotA in SE Asia, but none of them are a "national sport" like BW is, none of them are such a huge part of a country's culture. Sure there's plenty of progamers that work just as hard and have just as many fans as Flash or Jaedong or Boxer, but there's no progamer that's a national celebrity like Boxer is, who's recognized by people who don't even care about the game. Would Justin Wong or Grubby or cArn even be recognized by a famous actress in their country, yet alone marry one?
That's what makes BW different. You can respect other esports without denying that BW is the only one to become a cultural phenomenon. That doesn't make the conclusion that he came to correct though. Just because soccer isn't a phenomenon in the USA doesn't mean that it isn't a sport.
To phrase it better, his conclusion is wrong but all of his points are correct.
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On October 30 2011 11:47 QibingZero wrote:
I feel I owe all of you an apology.
It is, after all, my fault for getting Milkis into BW and TL.net in the first place. He does not know I'm making this post, but this is something that must be said. In my wildest dreams I never thought it would come this far - hell, I had no idea he'd even start translating simple Fomos articles when he first created his TL account. In reality, I just wanted to see him improve at BW so I didn't feel so bad beating him all the damn time.
Even so, I take full responsibility for anything you feel he has done to harm you. Please, feel free to direct your anger toward me. I've unleashed this upon you, and you deserve to know who to blame for it.
I also have to apologize for not getting more involved in the community myself. If I had, anything Milkis might have said about BW, SC2, and esports would have paled in comparison to my regular, scathing remarks on the subject. He could have kept doing what he loved to do: quietly providing services to the community where they were lacking. In this aspect, not only did I wrong the community, but Milkis as well.
Along those lines, I ultimately also feel responsible for influencing and giving support to his thoughts on the many controversial topics that have come up regarding BW and SC2. My antagonism toward Blizzard for bastardizing everything I once loved in the name of immediate profits skewed any conversation on the topic we might have had. To this point, I've secretly hoped for SC2's demise in Korea the entire time, and I have no doubt that this has troubled Milkis' thoughts regularly.
In the end, I don't expect to be forgiven, but I feel that I have to apologize for seemingly harming so many of you (indirectly or not). I await whatever punishment the community deems fitting.
Truly sorry,
Alex K
This thread just keeps on giving.
We are truely spoiled.
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Canada13430 Posts
Milkis, while I respect your decision I am very disappointed and saddened. We will be losing an amazing community member who did nothing but give and try his best. I really wish you come back and I hope you can still enjoy this community even if only from a backseat role. I enjoy reading your translations, and I follow your twitter and Tumblr accounts for them.
I read your posts here and I respect them even if sometimes I disagree. I think you are an asset to this community and you will be missed.
The idiots who flame you are idiots. Forget them they can go to hell. Those of us who really love this community know how important you are and have been and to what extent you have sacrificed certain things to bring us content and help bridge the Korean/Non-Korean divide.
Good luck with all your endeavours and I hope you can one day come back and forget the haters. At the very least I hope you can still enjoy SC2 and BW alike as a spectator.
For what its worth, I apologize for the childishness of some of the community and what they may have done to make you feel this way.
I will always respect you for what you have done for this community and I trust the content you have brought us as well as your opinions.
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On October 30 2011 11:49 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:46 Loki57 wrote:On October 30 2011 11:41 jalstar wrote:
Milkis is right, no other esport is put on the level of real sports the way BW is in Korea. Sure Street Fighter is popular everywhere, CS is huge in Europe, DotA in SE Asia, but none of them are a "national sport" like BW is, none of them are such a huge part of a country's culture. Sure there's plenty of progamers that work just as hard and have just as many fans as Flash or Jaedong or Boxer, but there's no progamer that's a national celebrity like Boxer is, who's recognized by people who don't even care about the game. Would Justin Wong or Grubby or cArn even be recognized by a famous actress in their country, yet alone marry one?
That's what makes BW different. You can respect other esports without denying that BW is the only one to become a cultural phenomenon. That doesn't make the conclusion that he came to correct though. Just because soccer isn't a phenomenon in the USA doesn't mean that it isn't a sport. To phrase it better, his conclusion is wrong but all of his points are correct.
Basically, yes. I agree with a lot of the points but unfortunately the conclusion was pretty off-base imo.
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On October 30 2011 11:40 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:28 Dfgj wrote:On October 30 2011 11:21 Hinanawi wrote:
Did you really expect the SC2 kiddies who never followed BW to understand your post?
Either way, you decided to put yourself out there as a promoter of SC2, so you're supposed to grin and pretend that you think it's the best game ever. Take lessons from Tasteless. Let me make an analogy: A football player comes on TL to tell everyone that video games aren't sports, and only real, physical sports are really important - video gamers are just nerds and little kids. You reply, no, fuck that, the people involved in esports give their heart and soul as much as any physical sportsman, and they deserve as much respect both as players and in their medium as anyone else. That's this situation, only some people are in favor of pushing down other games because they're not on the scale of BW? BW is the biggest and best esport, but you can only say that because of all the other esports it surpassed - they're still esports. Good lord people, if you've followed BW, then you know how hard people are working to make esports into something real. How can you then go and dismiss people you are working on doing the same thing for the games they love? If you're a fan of BW, you should be supporting every instance of esports, big or small, because your history is built on the joy of a game that succeeded. Except that's not the situation at all. Milkis said that AS OF NOW, nothing can come close to Brood War as an esport, which is 100% correct. He EXPRESSED HIS HOPE that SC2 will someday be able to match the lofty heights that BW reached.
Unfortunately, that wasn't the message a lot of people received.
This sort of reminds me of the old 'Elephant in the Room' thread. It stated an obvious fact, but the way it was presented shoved the details of the thread in peoples' faces and only served to create division. That's being a dick to people on the other side of that divide.
This is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I do not give a damn about 'esports', I give a damn about Brood War, and at the moment, one other competitive video game (which I will leave unnamed to not clutter my point). What, just because something is a video game and people try to make it a competitive sport, I'm supposed to support it? I don't like watching Halo, CoD, LoL, SC2, etc. and I'm sure as hell not going to support them just because they're 'esports'. I have no doubt that someday another game will rise up and become a true hit the way BW did, and if I'll be cheering it all the way if I enjoy watching that game. That doesn't mean I'm going to hop on the 'ESPORTS' bandwagon and support any competitive video game just because it's a competitive video game.
There's a difference between 'you should like every game' and 'you should support instances of esports'. You don't need to watch a game you don't like, nor did I suggest you should have to - but you also shouldn't harp on games that aren't BW because of that. Milkis's post works to divide the esports community at large, and I'm not surprised it's someone like Wheat, who's a supporter of esports in all its forms, who called him out on it.
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EPT
