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I know there's a thread reporting this actually happening and everybody mostly saying "yay", but I wanna approach this more hypothetically, like a philosophical type question...
We all can agree that people who like CP are sick, so naturally we think shutting down their sites is hurting those sick people and is therefore a good thing. And we are probably right, but just to be sure, I am wondering something...
We can all agree we don't want any children to be harmed in any way. So what will achieve this?
(1) If there was no porn would you have less or more sex? Maybe some people would have more sex, or persue it more etc.?
If so, then doesn't removing CP actually risk harming more kids? The assumption is that CP leads to more victimizations, but is this true?
Okay, maybe not, so then getting rid of CP is doing a good thing. Still, actually these centralized sites are an easy way to catch CP people in big busts, whereas once the big targets are down, aren't people just going to get CP through less centralized, harder to track, more amature means? We could end up creating more hard to track, hard to catch, tech savy CP communities by doing this.
(2) They should take the info from hacking the CP sites and turn it over to the public so as many people as possible can be busted. This assumes all CP users should have their lives ruined for all time of course, because that's what would happen. Is that what we should do in order to make children safe? Maybe, what do you think?
If both of these objections can be eliminated then I will be sure that hacking those CP sites is a good thing.
 
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Tbh that isnt a real philosophical question :-)
You are right with the point that those people are sick, but wouldnt it be normal to visit a doc when you are sick? Instead they try to "cure" themself on the costs of others.
Every "model" on a cp side got hurt, I mean relly hurt, so there is no reason at all, to allow someone to watch them. The only thing we must to is, shut those sites down, find the kids period.
1) As pedophilia is a sickness, it wouldt have a real great impact. Cp is just the same to them as normal porn is for us. A nice skill toi have but not relevant for living.
2) I dont think to bust them open in public is a good idea. It would be a lot better to "help" the pedophiles and get them to some kind of sanatory and try to fix their problems. But this wont work I think....
I really dont have a good idea on that
Just my 2 cents
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Both of your ideas are wrong really in my opinion, if the police etc planned on getting the people who upload to these places, they would have done it already, or be doing it more actively(not saying they are not active/trying but they aren't really having too much success). Although i'd LOVE to know if there was someone who watched cp near me, so people could do something, you can't just give peoples information out on such a sensitive area. If you're wrong, and you release someones information, and infact they do not watch child porn, what then? These people will have their lives essentially ruined for nothing.
Taking down their websites will have more of a positive effect than a negative. You will never be able to stop the distribution of it through the internet, it's not possible too. Taking down some servers/websites which host it does help, it stops the not so 'smart' people being able to find it. It could possibly mean a few people go out and harm children, but i guess you could also say they may be more wreckless and caught pretty easily?
Also about the 'hard to track' thing. The people who are smart enough to understand how to not be tracked, won't be using some things that these hackers are able to take down, so essentially they are stopping the easy/more accessible way of finding it, which to me is good.
I don't think you can say these people are sick, as in have a mental illness. They are just bad people. This is one of the few things i'd be more than happy to have a global death penalty for.
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The production of child porn is abuse and distribution is also violating the childs rights.
The only reason this hacking could be wrong is if this is somehow hampering police investigations.
Watching CP could be a steppingstone to worse behaviour or could lead to organisation of the Pedo´s.
There is no known cure for pedofelia. Living in an isolated area where no kids live is the only thing I can think of.
It is as hard as curing heterosexuality or homosexuality. Or the rare case of someone getting a sexual bond with a kind of object. But those are harmless with the exception of people having sex with animals.
A special reserve for them has a bad ring to it. So isolation it is. Pedofiles are harrassed and terrorised when the neighbourhood finds out. I cant blame the peolpe who do that to them. They fear for the safety of their children.
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Now I know I'm gonna sound like a pedo perverts defendant, but whatever.
Your logic that people shouldn't be allowed to do something because you perceive it as sick is retarded. People shouldn't be allowed to do things that HURT others, or lead to it. Thus, if someone pays for CP and the money go to people who make more CP -> he's obviously helping them hurt the kids and he should be punished for it. However, if someone simply watches it, without contributing to it in any way.. did he really hurt someone? No, and even if such person obviously IS sick, it's absolutely his choice and I don't see why would you want a person who might not ever hurt anyone (and probably won't) jailed/institutionalized for some (disturbing, but still) pics on his HD. You should go for the people who actually made the CP, but yea, that would actually be harder than just getting some IPs, so obviously cops are not gonna do that.
It's also worth noting that most pedophiles don't have violent tendencies - they're simply attracted to kids, but most of them will never harm one. People who rape/kill kids are psychopaths/sadists way more often than pedophiles. Still, it's a condition hard to live with (by the way I'd like to mention that there's no cure to it, opposed to what the guy above me said.. except of cutting their balls off).. and there actually were studies showing that a pedo is less prone to assault a kid when he could just ventilate himself via CP.. so I'm pretty sure that if you actually somehow removed all CP from the internet, it would mean more violence/rapes.
Anyways, my point is - unless the "consumers" actively support "the industry" (by paying for it/having info about the actual makers and not giving it to police etc), it's pointless trying to fight them, and it could even be counter-productive in some cases. Police should try and go for the actual creators of that shit instead.
EDIT: @nycto "I don't think you can say these people are sick, as in have a mental illness".. but that's what it is, a mental illness.. although it doesn't justify anything.
Jeez, I reread the post and I'm really looking forward to the hate I'm about to get after all the idiots with no ability to comprehend something read it.. lol.
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My moral philosophy is very simple: Something can only be considered wrong if it harms someone else.
Does looking at pictures harm anyone? No. Of course not.
Does making the pictures harm anyone? Sometimes.
If the CP is made with rape or molestation/etc, then it's a terrible, disgusting thing. Of course, it's possible to make CP without harming a child, isn't it? I mean even nudity is considered CP.
I don't buy the argument that people seeing pictures increases sexual crimes. If anything, it seems like it would be the opposite. It would be an outlet for their fantasies instead of building up in their mind and resulting in action.
I guess my point is, I don't favor destroying the lives of people who haven't harmed anyone. I'm against that pretty much always, even if they are people that society really hates, like pedophiles.
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^
don't bother reading my post, this guy said the same thing ten times better.
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On October 28 2011 01:34 jdseemoreglass wrote:
My moral philosophy is very simple: Something can only be considered wrong if it harms someone else.
Does looking at pictures harm anyone? No. Of course not.
Does making the pictures harm anyone? Sometimes.
If the CP is made with rape or molestation/etc, then it's a terrible, disgusting thing. Of course, it's possible to make CP without harming a child, isn't it? I mean even nudity is considered CP.
I don't buy the argument that people seeing pictures increases sexual crimes. If anything, it seems like it would be the opposite. It would be an outlet for their fantasies instead of building up in their mind and resulting in action.
I guess my point is, I don't favor destroying the lives of people who haven't harmed anyone. I'm against that pretty much always, even if they are people that society really hates, like pedophiles.
i agree with your line of thought, however the counter argument is that looking at pics creates demand and that demand fuels kids getting raped. its kinda indirect, and i dont believe people should be punished for looking (molesting of course) when they are that detached.
it seems like theres this certain stigma about CP that changes the way people view the watchers. personally, i cant imagine someone going to jail for downloading and watching a video of an adult woman getting raped, or murderered, or any other sort of crime. i mean, ive viewed those beheading videos on ogrish, am i fueling people getting killed? seems a bit far off to me
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On October 28 2011 01:34 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Of course, it's possible to make CP without harming a child, isn't it?
No, it's not. The emotional damage done will severely damage the child's life.
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For the people saying that looking at cp doesnt harm people, it obviously does, what the hell? They are going to keep producing cp to distribute if there is an audience for it, which can encourage more people to do the same.
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On October 28 2011 02:26 Nyct0 wrote:
For the people saying that looking at cp doesnt harm people, it obviously does, what the hell? They are going to keep producing cp to distribute if there is an audience for it, which can encourage more people to do the same.
like i said before, if you watch something like the beheading videos of americans on ogrish or a similar shock site, are you contributing to murder? are you encouraging people to kill?
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On October 28 2011 02:30 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 02:26 Nyct0 wrote:
For the people saying that looking at cp doesnt harm people, it obviously does, what the hell? They are going to keep producing cp to distribute if there is an audience for it, which can encourage more people to do the same. like i said before, if you watch something like the beheading videos of americans on ogrish or a similar shock site, are you contributing to murder? are you encouraging people to kill?
Thats a pretty poor example, but yes, if videos of that nature become more common (like cp) then you would be creating a greater demand for it.
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why is it a poor example?
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On October 28 2011 01:34 jdseemoreglass wrote:
My moral philosophy is very simple: Something can only be considered wrong if it harms someone else.
Does looking at pictures harm anyone? No. Of course not.
Does making the pictures harm anyone? Sometimes.
If the CP is made with rape or molestation/etc, then it's a terrible, disgusting thing. Of course, it's possible to make CP without harming a child, isn't it? I mean even nudity is considered CP.
I don't buy the argument that people seeing pictures increases sexual crimes. If anything, it seems like it would be the opposite. It would be an outlet for their fantasies instead of building up in their mind and resulting in action.
I guess my point is, I don't favor destroying the lives of people who haven't harmed anyone. I'm against that pretty much always, even if they are people that society really hates, like pedophiles.
People who are looking at these sites are creating revenue for the people who built these sites. If there were no customers, there would be no business. People will always commit crimes. Even if you catch every person there is who does this, the next generation of people will be born and a certain % of those will be the next generation of criminals. It will always pose a problem and I don't see any way of truly getting rid of it 100%. imo, letting anyone go for creating OR supporting it (aka watching it) will just make people think they can get away with it. The more social stigma against it and the more prosecutions and convictions of the perpetrators will deter more people than anything else will. Fact, the best crime prevention is the simple presence of the police. Why do you not speed when you want to? Because you don't want a cop busting you. The same principal applies to this. Enforce the laws, prosecute the criminals, and make it as public as you can when you get convictions to deter anyone else from doing the same thing. This is law enforcement's view, and I agree with it. The only thing they can do better, is publicizing it more, imo.
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On October 28 2011 02:45 Legatus Lanius wrote:
why is it a poor example?
The purposes of producing the two types of videos is somewhat different.
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paying for it or contributing to its production is evil
but looking at stuff you got for free online is fine
no it doesnt make people go out and rape kids, you have to be messed up already to do that
you have to realise the vast vast majority of "child porn" that is available to the public is stuff you get for free on usenet or free forums/chans or kazaa. 99.99% of "pedos" who look at this stuff are just normal guys who click a different button to you when they jerk off.
the minority is the people you see going to jail because they were on some super super private server and made their own stuff and sold it to other people in their circle. these are the sick fucks that you want to rot in jail because they are the ones causing and generating abuse.
they grey area is the "modelling industry" that makes semi-legal stuff using clothed young models, the age limit for this is undefined by law but in the US people have been prosecuted by it because it was deemed obscene material (but not "abusive"? )
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On October 28 2011 03:22 FFGenerations wrote:
paying for it or contributing to its production is evil
but looking at stuff you got for free online is fine
Question. Do you think TeamLiquid makes money off all of our invisible subscriptions to TeamLiquid, or by traffic flow / advertisements?
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i was under the impression that most CP is shared via torrents so i dont really know how the traffic flow / advertisement argument comes into it
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Of course there's money in CP. All underground illegal activities have a ton of money in them, and the riskier the business, the more money there is. Why the hell would someone distribute this shit and risk life in jail if there weren't? It's the same shit as human trafficking and drug trafficking, and it's a big ass deal to be involved in any of these.
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On October 28 2011 00:34 BeWat3r wrote:
You are right with the point that those people are sick, but wouldnt it be normal to visit a doc when you are sick? Instead they try to "cure" themself on the costs of others.
The shared premise I tried to establish for us all was that preventing harm to kids would be primary. Yeah, if there's nothing else at stake, help the sick people. But, first and foremost, minimize the dangers to kids. Agree or disagree?
Every "model" on a cp side got hurt, I mean relly hurt, so there is no reason at all, to allow someone to watch them. The only thing we must to is, shut those sites down, find the kids period.
What's the connection between these two statements?
A. All kids in all CP materials got really truly hurt.
B. We must not allow anyone to watch any CP materials
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C. Therefore, we must shut those sites down (deals with B), and find those kids (syllogistically follows from A I suppose).
Implied is that shared thing, that helping the kids is #1, in which case we really should find those kids, but part of the point of OP was to wonder whether shutting down the sites would increase the amount of hurt kids or not. I think more has to be said before we can assume that the fruits of CP production must be stopped in order to minimize CP production which thereby minimizes, overall, CH (child harm). In fact, I think what I tried to ask was whether the existing of CP might overall reduce CH even though its production adds to it. e.g. maybe each CP production is +5 CH, but its existence is -100 because so many people view it. That kind of thing. Anyways, it's a bit moot, because we could agree that enough CP exists right now (probably) to sate everyone for all time. So all CP production can cease. Now the question is, what do we do with the existing CP? Make sure no one ever sees it, or, does its availability reduce (or increase!?) future CH?
You still don't feel that this is a philosophical question btw?
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Will burning out nests cure the rats? Absolutely not.
Will it put the fear of fire into them and scare them into acting on their proclivities less? Perhaps.
Will it damage the bottom line of the child molestation for profit industry? Yes.
These efforts are probably not going to ever STOP people from abusing children but they are making life much more difficult. That, morally, is fine with me.
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EPT
