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I made the switch, I'm an sc2 player. I even switched races in the process, from P -> Z (probably shouldn't have, as brotossers seem to be pretty baller, and zergs are whining pieces of shit).
I think some things are great, and other things suck. No one cares what I think so I'm going to post this in the blogs section because I want to write this up, and here my post will not serve to interrupt the normal flow of TL. I'll start with the positive, since everyone loves being negative.
10 Things I like about SC2
1. Reapers. I love the concept of the unit and I think it's sad that they needed the harsh nerf they got. I would really love it if they lost the special building attack thing, and got some area control spell instead. (spider mines anyone?). I just love that they're a fast, micro intensive unit.
2. Multible building selection, because while it has lowered the skill required to macro well, refusing to allow things that make sense is not good game design, it's much better to go down the road blizzard went and just add additional macro mechanics to the game
3. Banshees. Those things are great raiding units and really, really complement the terran harassment section well. The only gripe I have with them is that I see no reason they have a range of 6, as they should not be a standard combat unit. A range of 4-5 would make more sense to me.
4. Phoenix. They are just a great raiding unit and the graviton beam has some pretty neat applications as a disable. I think the concept of the unit is excellent and they are pretty much the only really good protoss harassment unit.
5. Queens. Those just make so much sense, they add such a great element of macroing to the game, and make it non-trivial to macro as zerg. The creep spreading is great, the injects are great, and transfusing is just icing at that point. Very well designed unit for the Zerg.
6. The protoss gateway army. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker is really a worthy replacement for the old zealot/dragoon army. The blink is a great way to add micro to it, and zealots may be some of the most awesome units in the game. I actually appreciate the forcefield, I think that it isn't the best spell blizzard has designed, but it does have some pretty good applications.
7. Creep. It's awesome that zerg was given this ability to gain space and to have a very reasonable, yet significant, advantage when engaging on this home territory of the zerg. It's a cool factor and it gives additional feeling of the map being infested by the zerg army.
8. Immortals. This seemingly bland unit is just excellent addition to the protoss force. They're such a well designed unit, they serve exactly the purpose they're meant to serve, the protoss tanks. They're tough, the deal damage, and they have weaknesses. I really like the idea that immortals work as supporting firepower to the gateway army.
9. Broodlords. Simple change to the old guardian made this unit just a bit more awesome. Spawning broodlings is a really cool way to spice up this signature zerg siege air unit. I really like them.
10. Supply depots. Such a little thing that often gets forgotten. supply depots are really cool because they can be brought down and raised. It's so simple, yet so elegant. I saved this for last as it's probably the most overlooked good game-design decision made in sc2.
10 Things I don't like about SC2
1. Colossus. This unit is just too unwieldy to really fit into the game in my opinion. It replaced the reaver that doubled as a great harassment unit, but Colossus actually encourages deathballs because it's too strong when protected and too weak on it's own. I would much rather see templars be the go-to aoe unit for protoss, or reavers  ♥
2. Void Rays. I don't really know where blizzard intended to go with this unit, because they're weird as harassment units, and they're not that strong in battle either. The unit as whole just doesn't make sense to me. The charge-up mechanic sounds like something interesting but in reality it's just unwieldy and makes the voids a bit of a bland unit.
3. Missing creep colonies. I absolutely think zerg should get creep colonies back, they should not spread creep, just burrow in 6 seconds (Iike spores) and morph to either a spore or spine in less time than it takes to build one from scratch. Think of it as a way to allow zerg both slow pushing and reactive defending.
4. Vikings. They're too slow and the range is too high. This is a human army damnit, and the fighter pilots should be like those wraith pilots we saw in that cinematic in the sc campaign. Fast, dogfighters, agile and awesome. I want that feeling of a fighter, not a siege-aircraft. I think a fast, cool aircraft for terran with some neat utility would be pretty good.
5. Ravens. Simply because they don't have the role I expected them to. I was expecting an air-based support caster, what I got was some weird mixture of a harassment unit and a simple anti-missile blocker. And the HSM is just not that cool. I'd much rather have this unit be a proper support unit, like think something that would enhance the marine/tank composition, which is what the meat of the terran army should be in my opinion.
6. The motherhip. Because I hate the fact that protoss are missing a spell-casting air unit aside from this ridiculous blob of nothingness they call the mothership. Carriers are the damn capital ship of the protoss fleet, not this thing.
7. The infestor. First off, I really like infested terrans, I think that spell offers great utility and is pretty cool thematically for zerg. But I hate fungal growth, and I just don't see the point of neural parasite, maybe because I'm generally against those huge units. I was a big fan of the BW defiler, and I think allowing zerg to capture space (dark swarm) opens up so much more opportunities than allowing them to capture units (fungal). It's increased excitement and micro for everyone involved.
8. The Walkers. You see, I always felt like the terran army was a tough army, based largely on modern armies, but with added sci-fi elements. There's something glorious about knowing your army consists of tough marines, and tanks. There are too many walkers in sc2. The thor, the marauder and the viking ground form. I don't necessarily think for example the thor has terrible abilities, I just think it shouldn't be a walker, and I think it should belong to two units.
9. Concussive shells. Marauders are already fast enough to kite with stim, there really is no reason for this spell to be in the game. It once again is removing micro instead of adding micro.
10. Hydralisks. This once signature unit of the zerg army is only a shadow of it's former self. It's slow, it's fragile and unwieldy. The high dps is almost not worth the hassle of having those units. The unit needs to be looked at again. Perhaps remove it's status as light to toughen it up a bit, reduce the dps a lot and increase the speed, then give them some interesting role so they're not just bad marines.
 
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Nice post, I agree with a lot of things you mentioned. I didn't really make the switch from SCBW to SC2... rather I'm just playing a lot of MC (minecraft) and MS (maplestory) nowadays. For now I'll play those other games and keep an eye out for the changes to the game and the pro-scene. Perhaps with the releases of the expansions and further patches, I'll be interested again.
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God I hate what they did to hydralisks. I wish they would have put the roach at lair tech and left my hydras alone.
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I have to disagree with the Void Ray assessment. It was only when they removed their speed did the Void Ray become almost useless. That's not to say they don't have a place, but they lost a lot of versatility when losing their speed.
They are far too fragile a unit to have such slow speed, kind of like the situation with the Hydralisk. Solid units to mass, but their fragility makes them more of a liability and waste of resources because they can be countered so easily.
Everything else I more or less agree with.
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void rays without speed still move faster than queens on creep, punishes a tiny error from zerg far too much -_-
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On October 12 2011 22:53 turdburgler wrote:
void rays without speed still move faster than queens on creep, punishes a tiny error from zerg far too much -_-
void ray speed: 2.25
queen speed on creep: 2.667
ok.
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On October 12 2011 22:43 divito wrote:
I have to disagree with the Void Ray assessment. It was only when they removed their speed did the Void Ray become almost useless. That's not to say they don't have a place, but they lost a lot of versatility when losing their speed.
They are far too fragile a unit to have such slow speed, kind of like the situation with the Hydralisk. Solid units to mass, but their fragility makes them more of a liability and waste of resources because they can be countered so easily.
Everything else I more or less agree with.
But what is their role? I'm inclined to look at banshees, phoenixes and mutalisks as the air-raiders for each race. In the case of phoenixes they also double as air superiority fighters. The added speed on voids would only make them better raiders, which is pushing the really awesome phoenix even more to the side!
And the voids should not be flagships, big things that kill bases. That's the role of the carrier. If the carrier can't fill that role due to how hard it is to tech to, then that's simply another problem that needs to be fixed.
I like to look at roles and I like to look at armies as whole. I really think the protoss air forces could do with replacing the mothership and the void ray out, and add instead a supporting spellcaster or special effects ship.
That way, the airtoss would be phoenixes for harassment, scouting, map control and air superiority, carriers would be the meat, and sprinkle in arbiters (♥) for support. The abilities of this support vessel can be as dynamic and powerful as required for the game.
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On October 12 2011 22:53 turdburgler wrote:
void rays without speed still move faster than queens on creep, punishes a tiny error from zerg far too much -_-
I'd prefer this was not a balance thread. I'm much more concerned with the game being awesome.
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I recently did the same thing.
I switched from Terran to Zerg after beta because Terran was fucking easy and I had self respect.
What I like about SC2
1. Reapers. Agree.
2. Creep. Watching it spread across the minimap is awesome, speed advantage is nice too.
3. Overlord pooping creep. awesome to block expansions.
4. Chrono Boost. Gives Protoss a nice extra incentive to perfect build orders.
5. Broodlords. Agreed.
6. Supply depots. Agreed.
7. Being able to build nydus without creep is a good change in sc2, in bw it would be horrible though.
8. Warpprism. I just like the possibilities with it.
9. Snipe is a nice ability, although too easy to use with smartcast.
10. PDD is cool too.
11. Addon switching. Also promotes smart and perfected builds.
What I don't like about SC2
1. Basically a lot of the new units. Wraith > Banshee, Reaver > Colossus, Sair > Pheonix, Vessel > Ravens, Arbiter > Mothership...etc etc..
2. Forcefields, I just don't like how you can't micro against them once they go down. Sure Maelstorm, Lockdown and Stasis do the same but they are super lategame and not in such high numbers.
3. Warpgate. I am happy they patched the HT. Insta 5 seconds storm was the most ridiculous thing ever. Still without it it takes away so much strategy. It basically saves your ass if you are unprepared.
4. MULEs. They make Terran allin medium-risk/high-reward, are too good at comeback games, are too good on gold bases, and make base races with terran almost impossible.
5. New highground advantage. Let's be honest with the new mechanics you are either royally fucked, as on old lost temple, or it doesn't come into play much. Takes away strategy, as positioning on highground on the map has no advantage, as all races have things around that spot highground by midgame, mutas, obs, scan.
6. The new unit pathing and blob thingy. The balls make battles really short. I never saw a battle that lasted like a minute in sc2. It also made aoe really strong, so it got nerfed with the consequence that no units feel really powerful. Tanks are pussies, Storm is so-so, Reaver gone...The good unit pathing coupled with highground mechanics makes the defenders advantage also quite minimal. Which makes the decision when to attack less strategic, because pulling back again is easy.
7. MBS, Automine. The game is mechanically easy, which makes it hard for players to be worlds ahead of others and dominate above everyone else. Also the game is easy, it is more like nascar where you fight opponents, while bw was like rallying where you fight the game/track and your opponents. At least that is my feeling 
8. The size of Thors, Ultras and the Mothership. Fat clumsy fucks. Ultras are a joke, they are too many hamburgers to be fit for battle.
9. Concussive shells. I agree.
10. Hydralisks. I agree.
11. Smartcast, I like it more to have powerful spells that are hard to use then so-so spells that are easy to use. Also makes things like Boxer locking down shitton of Carriers unimpressive.
12. Lack of randomness. No reaver scarabs bugging out, no mines owning shit....
Blizzard was too obsessed with removing randomness, they actually remove excitement.
13. Planetary Fortress. Same as Warpgates, it allows the Terran to be unprepared, with army out of position, and still do ok vs harassment. Again takes away strategy.
I was thinking this maybe a week ago. I realized I think bw is a much better game. Starcraft 2 got all the tournaments and streams though. In the end when you are not at the top in a position to earn money with the game, it makes no sense to play a game just because it is 'alive', as long as you can find opponents at your level to play with.
As a consequence I am back to playing BW at the moment
Also this is kind of a bw vs. sc2 thing, but I guess it is fine as long as you guys bring arguments and don't bash, keke
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i agree with most of what you said.
Mostly about terran air units. I think that most of them are situational. Other than banshee harass early on, you only really need vikings for countering something like colosus or broods or tvt viking wars for vision, and i dont think ive ever played with battlecruisers. Other than medivacs, terran air just doesnt really have offensive applications. My opinion anyway
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@REDBLUEGREEN
I hope this won't turn into bw vs sc2, as I enjoy both games.
I agree with a ton of things you said, especially the part about the things you like. I'm going to point out some of the things you dislike and explain why I personally don't mind them.
1. I don't mind this. I think the banshee is a cool unit, I think the phoenix is a very good unit. It's only when the new unit doesn't fit very well that I have a problem.
2. I actually have grown to like forcefields. Remember that I dislike colossus, and thus by extension I don't like forcefields in that specific situation, but aside from their use in deathballs, I really like the forcefield as an area denial tool.
3-4. balance issue, not design issue. Can be nerfed/buffed, doesn't matter. The main point is that I like the concepts of templars, I love them. And I also like the concept of mules.
5. I don't really mind this, maybe with more featured terrain this becomes an issue.
6. I think this will eventually just highlight the good players who are able to spread their armies effectively, and things die fast enough in sc2. Storms and tanks seem pretty strong to me, but again, that's a balance issue.
7. Here's the thing I really disagree with you about. Your analogy doesn't make sense, because anyone, and I mean anyone, even someone who has hardly driven a car before, can see that the situation in the rally is completely different.
For the casual observer who doesn't play the game, he will not learn to appreciate the macro mechanics because they cannot be shown in standard observer mode. Thus I think it's better to add visible macro mechanics (chrono, inject, mule), than it is to create barriers that casual audience will not learn to appreciate.
It's great for us advanced viewers, but we have to remember that it's casual viewers who bring the numbers. I think a much better solution would be adding more macro mechanics. It's not exactly fun knowing player is clicking through his factories. It's interesting from an amateur player perspective, but this needs to be interesting to the non-players as well.
8. meh, I don't like thors and motherships anyway. And Ultras could use some buff to their maneuvrability, no idea.
11. again, same argument. if something is impressive it should be intuitively impressive. If a first timer saw boxer lockdown carriers, or jangbi perfect storm shit to pieces, he'd actually not be impressed, because he does not understand how difficult that is to perform. I want the difficulty to be visible. I don't think it makes sense for the sport to have to explain WHY that was amazing. A signature of a good sport is that everyone understands things that are amazing when they see them.
12. Don't mind either way.
13. don't mind them.
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Oh poor hydralisks. They are seriously one of the worst units in the game. They are just too damn expensive for what they do. They deal a lot of damage, yes, but they are too vulnerable. That wouldn't be that big a problem if they were at least fast enough to avoid a fight if necessary, or if they didn't cost a ridiculous amount of resources. It's quite the opposite of the role they had in Broodwar as a fast and expendable allround unit.
Hydras are countered by just about anything the opponent has in his regular army (marines, tanks, chargelots, colossi, storm, zerglings, banelings, roaches). This means that you normally want to avoid getting hydralisks at all. That again causes a very noticeable weakness against air units. Considering that the overseer and queen aren't combat units and ultralisks kinda suck too, there isn't much variability left in zergs' unit choices.
Also, hydras' sound effects suck.
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10. Hydralisks. This once signature unit of the zerg army is only a shadow of it's former self. It's slow, it's fragile and unwieldy. The high dps is almost not worth the hassle of having those units. The unit needs to be looked at again. Perhaps remove it's status as light to toughen it up a bit, reduce the dps a lot and increase the speed, then give them some interesting role so they're not just bad marines.
Hi my name is roach!
I agree with the majority of your points, but also the majority of your points will never be changed/happen.
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I'm surprised the marauder and the roach didn't make it onto your dislike list. There just so boring and uninteresting. But that's just me missing the days of mech vs protoss  .
edit: whoa, my 100th post
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I personally love the bansee x.x I do a lot of 2port banshee builds tvp because i love the whole harass unit that can be a combat unit if you protect it with a meat army (similar to how protoss guards the colo).
That said the damage should be scaled back slightly so they 3 shot probes instead of 2 shotting.
and my main dislike of sc2 is the positional wars we saw in BW. the high-ground mechanic as well as the lack of abilities that hold ground (reaver, spidermines, lurker, darkswarm, BW tank lines) make the game seem like a lot of reckless movement that goes unpunished.
I think it's cool seeing the pro players being 100% active with their armies, running around checking all the space of the map, but they shouldn't have the freedom to send their blob around to every corner and not get smashed by moving too aggressively.
So heres hoping that the new zerg unit is some sort of siege tank!
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I'm actually only going to comment on the banshee part of this:
I don't know why you dont think they should be a "Standard combat unit", and i'm curious about that, though i suspect it's probably just because you think it makes them too strong overall.
however i would argue that that is the exact reason that banshees are so good. having units that ONLY can harrass or ONLY be in a main army is just bad design in my opinion.
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On October 13 2011 03:14 Spessi wrote:
I'm actually only going to comment on the banshee part of this:
I don't know why you dont think they should be a "Standard combat unit", and i'm curious about that, though i suspect it's probably just because you think it makes them too strong overall.
however i would argue that that is the exact reason that banshees are so good. having units that ONLY can harrass or ONLY be in a main army is just bad design in my opinion.
But why would that be? Obviously, if you've built 6 banshees and there is a close fight going on, you want them in, but they should be sub-par at that.
Similar to how the mutalisk functions for zerg. They are a sub-par army unit to the zerg natural composition, but of course when shit hits the fan, the zerg player does use his mutalisks in main army fights.
I see no problem with units being mostly workhorses in a main army, and no problem with units being mostly scouting and harassment units.
It has nothing to do with the strength of the banshee. My main gripe with their range is that in sort of invalidates the use of cannons, turrets and spores to defend bases. At the moment you have to build a cannon on all four sides of a nexus to protect it from a banshee, while that's not the case with mutalisks.
I already think they don't fill a standard army role, you don't see pro players massing banshees, they're used as harassment unit. And this is why I really, really like banshees. Because they do exactly what they're meant to do, and they're good at it.
I am very big on army "looks", I want the core army to feel like their respective races, even if it's not the same depending on the matchup. I really feel like the banshee fits the terran theme well, as a harassment unit.
Don't get me wrong, I think the banshee is excellent, and I'd rather blizzard just didn't touch them.
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I like switching add-ons. It's the only thing I miss when I play BW.
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Palmar explained it better than i did. I also was writing pretty poorly on that post..
Basically what i do is 2port, and harass with 2 groups of 2-3 banshees while expanding behind it (similar to muta harass), and then making a large MMM/raven force for a timing push, in which i can pull back about 5-6 banshees and use it to supplement the damage of my army (provided i micro properly and dont lose them)
I would never make an army composed of mostly banshees. =X
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I don't really agree nor disagree with your points, but If I were to make a similar thread, all the gripes of sc2 would not be about the actual in game stuff. It would be about thing things around the game that make the whole experience more enjoyable and playable. Stuff like melee game making, lan, chat commands, replays online, and many other things that b.net 0.2 has taken away from sc/bw.
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EPT
