• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:23
CEST 03:23
KST 10:23
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47
Community News
Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)2BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13
StarCraft 2
General
flash bitcoin software Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2) The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group A [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group B RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL19] Grand Finals
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Who’s Getting the Effortless-Chic Look Just Right?
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 18334 users

The state of Terran in general

Blogs > Jermstuddog
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-12 15:06:16
September 03 2011 17:02 GMT
#1
So I've always hated the state of ZvT, but I kind of figured it was personal bias due to playing Zerg but I have recently had some interesting discussions with a friend who's new to the game.

Let me start by giving some background information on my friend:

He is a long time competitive gamer, starting back in CS 1.6. This isn't to say he's pro, or has ever been, but he plays games at a relatively high level and enjoys all the same things any "sub-pro" would about competitive gaming in general.

He got in to starcraft through watching and is only now starting to play. I suggested he start with Terran since he has never played an RTS in general. I set him up with a few builds and sent him on his way.

He discovered he doesn't really like RTS games.

They're just not his cup of tea when it comes to actually playing the game, but he still enjoys watching the pros play. What playing the game HAS done is give him an appreciation for just how much is going on.

This past week, he was telling me he's gotten bored with the game: "Terran is too OP, its boring to watch."

Amazed that he would come back with that, I probe a little deeper before I open my own flood gates.

He talks about both TvZ and TvP. Not 2 rax or 1-1-1, but the flow of the game in general.

"Terran always holds all the cards. They have a better economy through MULEs, their units are more cost effective, and they can't really be counter-attacked. Every game I see a TvX and there is a successful counter, Terran just wins immediately because the other guy can't hold the push. To make matters worse, Terran is the only race that can make a come-back. If you see a Z or P lose 80% of his army to kill 40% of the T army, that game is over. But Terran can throw his units away, virtually guaranteed to do enough damage, and reproduce faster than his opponent because he has so much production."

I was amazed... and delighted that I'm not the only one who sees this. I have been bitching about this since day 1, but most people don't seem to share my sentiment.

Does it just so happen that my friend is in the same minority thought-group as me, or is it real, and other people are finally seeing the same bullshit I've been bitching about for a year?

*
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
September 03 2011 17:12 GMT
#2
I totally disagree on he remacroing part. Sure if you lose all your scvs, you get your mules, but it's balanced out by how Zerg can have banked larvae to have simultaneous worker production. It's also much easier to remax as zerg, while terran and toss take a while to remax, especially the power units

But yes, Terran does have more options, and the other race has to react to it.

And if you don't like it, play Terran
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
September 03 2011 17:24 GMT
#3
That is kind of my fear.

One year into the game, I feel top Terran players are starting to leverage those options into constant lose/lose situations for their opponents.

Bigger than my own issues with ZvT, I don't want to watch SC2 evolve into nothing but TvT but that seems to be the direction its going. The overwhelming number of Terrans at the top in korea only seems to be growing, and I don't see 1.4 doing anything to address the core issues.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
September 03 2011 17:24 GMT
#4
Damn, guess you can't counterattack Terran. Someone tell Julyzerg!!!!
coreydota
Profile Joined October 2010
United States180 Posts
September 03 2011 17:32 GMT
#5
I hate the fucking stigma that terran can just 'throw away their units lol because they reproduce so fast.' terran has effective units with slow reproduction rate. larva and warpgates are much better than production facilities in regards to remaxing. out of all the things people can complain about regarding terran, their 'overwhelming production capability!!' should probably be the last
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
September 03 2011 17:32 GMT
#6
On September 04 2011 02:24 Entropic wrote:
Damn, guess you can't counterattack Terran. Someone tell Julyzerg!!!!

Hey man, backstabbing is cheating
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-03 17:33:42
September 03 2011 17:33 GMT
#7
On September 04 2011 02:32 101toss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2011 02:24 Entropic wrote:
Damn, guess you can't counterattack Terran. Someone tell Julyzerg!!!!

Hey man, backstabbing is cheating


DRG makes his living off backstabs, cheaterzerg.
Navillus
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1188 Posts
September 03 2011 17:34 GMT
#8
I play P and in my experience terran is really really good at remacroing, I'll go even with a terran and he'll have a really powerful MMM ball back up in a minute, that said I'm not nor do I think I'm at the level to judge this and I certainly don't think you're friend who doesn't even play is at a level to judge this so I'm going to wait until there's a serious feeling from the pros that Terran is OP not that they just have a bunch of good top level players.
"TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa
Tommie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
China658 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-03 17:36:49
September 03 2011 17:36 GMT
#9
I've had the same with a friend who is a big broodwar fan and has been for a long time. We looked at the units, the tech trees and the ability to harass/turtle and he said: terran is gonna be the dominant race for a very long time. Just by looking at the flexibility of the race and it's tech tree.
Being a ho doesn't automatically make you "immoral" or a bad person, but it does make you a ho.
Servius_Fulvius
Profile Joined August 2009
United States947 Posts
September 03 2011 17:51 GMT
#10
Sooooo....your buddy who is a pretty good player in other games tried starcraft for a brief period of time, didn't like it, watched some pro's, and determined that terrans are tearing it up? It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out...

Personally, whenever I watch high level ZvT I don't feel the zergs are playing the right style. Muta/ling/bane is incredibly gas-heavy and hellion harass limits quick thirds. T spends all their gas on tanks and upgrades and all their minerals on marines. It's incredibly cost-effective off two bases ESPECIALLY with good micro, which the top players have. I fell that a meta-game shift in zerg strategy is the only thing that's going to swing the supposed imbalance.
deathly rat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom911 Posts
September 03 2011 18:03 GMT
#11
I don't agree with the remaxing part, as others have pointed out Z and P have much quicker ways of producing units. Muling is supposed to be countered by Protoss Chronoboost and Zerg larva inject mechanics.

However what makes T very powerful IMO is the combination of Muling which can provide a large boost to the mineral income, and Marines, which only cost minerals and no gas. Marines as a range unit become much more powerful as you get a ball of them (I think Idra called it an avalanche effect) and they have very high DPS/cost of unit. P and Z tier 1 high DPS units are all melee, which get relatively worse the more you have of them.

So imagine the game has reached mid-game, and a huge battle occurs in which all the armies of both sides die. During this battle very little macro has occured, so maybe 3 orbitals have gained energy, and there is a little bit of gas available for both players. In this scenario Mules provide a sharp boost to the economy which can be readily used in marine production together with 1 or 2 power units. This small force is much more powerful than anything P or Z can produce in the same amount of time.

It's tough to have a balance debate without groaning and accusations of whining, but I think it might be possible.
No logo (logo)
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
September 03 2011 18:05 GMT
#12
On September 04 2011 02:51 Servius_Fulvius wrote:
Sooooo....your buddy who is a pretty good player in other games tried starcraft for a brief period of time, didn't like it, watched some pro's, and determined that terrans are tearing it up? It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out...

Personally, whenever I watch high level ZvT I don't feel the zergs are playing the right style. Muta/ling/bane is incredibly gas-heavy and hellion harass limits quick thirds. T spends all their gas on tanks and upgrades and all their minerals on marines. It's incredibly cost-effective off two bases ESPECIALLY with good micro, which the top players have. I fell that a meta-game shift in zerg strategy is the only thing that's going to swing the supposed imbalance.


The question isn't whether or not Terrans are winning. That much is a known fact. The question is whether or not Zerg and Protoss are capable of competing with the tools available to their respective races.

As far as whether or not muta/ling/bling is effective vs Terran, I would agree that it doesn't feel like a dominant strategy, but what else is Zerg supposed to go for in that MU?

Infestors being the obvious answer is wrong. The only notable pro-level player using infestors early in ZvT right now is Destiny. Not only can he not make it past round 2 in the last MLG and didn't bother showing up to this one, he has said over and over on his stream that ZvT has become his worst MU with all the hellions running around.

Roaches are too slow and don't deal enough damage.

Hydras are even slower and literally get countered by EVERY terran unit except the viking.

Broods and ultras both come too late for mid-game play.

Muta/ling/bling may be ineffective, but Zerg has no other options.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
September 03 2011 18:20 GMT
#13
On September 04 2011 02:12 101toss wrote:
I totally disagree on he remacroing part. Sure if you lose all your scvs, you get your mules, but it's balanced out by how Zerg can have banked larvae to have simultaneous worker production. It's also much easier to remax as zerg, while terran and toss take a while to remax, especially the power units

But yes, Terran does have more options, and the other race has to react to it.

And if you don't like it, play Terran


I agree with this. Terran is unarguably the hardest race to re-macro with. Their army comes far more slowly than Zerg (mass Larvae) or Protoss (instant Warp-In's).

That said, I would definitely agree that Terrans hold most (if not all) of the cards the way the metagame currently stands. Terran can lose, but only if their opponent reacts really well. Terran basically gets to make all of the decisions in both TvP and TvZ. It's rather annoying and it is making the game not fun to play at all, even if I am Terran.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
gillon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden1578 Posts
September 03 2011 18:30 GMT
#14
What? Terran has the least production, or atleast on par with protoss. Sorry, I hate to sound like an ass, but this is just factually wrong.
www.teamproperty.net | "You should hate losing, but you should never fear defeat." - 이윤열
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
September 03 2011 18:46 GMT
#15
At what level did your friend play?

1. Better economy through MULEs? Only if Zerg/ Protoss isn't using their macro mechanics.
2. Can't be counter attacked ... ? How can you have played any Terran whatsoever and claim you can't be counterattacked -_-'
3. Terran can throw away their army and reproduce faster ...what?

Seems like you just found a cheap excuse to whine, maybe you should put some energy towards something constructive.
I think esports is pretty nice.
Darclite
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1021 Posts
September 03 2011 18:55 GMT
#16
"Terran is the only race that can make a come-back. If you see a Z or P lose 80% of his army to kill 40% of the T army, that game is over. But Terran can throw his units away, virtually guaranteed to do enough damage, and reproduce faster than his opponent because he has so much production."

I don't think it is the remaxing part of what he said that matters, I think it is more significant that the units are almost guaranteed to be cost effective because they are cheap and have high dps. Generally, any engagement where a protoss army gets EMPed, the terran may lose the battle but still have killed an equal or greater cost of his opponent's units. And with zerg, any engagement where banelings do not connect with marines, the terran army may still lose but will still be cost-effective. Looking at the core units of each race's army, marines are great in most aspects, stalkers are painfully cost-inefficient and roaches are painfully supply-inefficient.

Also, the decision making part is really true. Scouting should be important but it shouldn't become "Well I was going to do this in my PvT/ZvT but his composition won't let me; I'll auto-lose." Terran's versatility (gained through a strong economy from mules, strength of rax units, generally high dps/cost ratio, number of frightening all-ins, ability to switch add-ons, the combination of every tech into a single, direct tree) usually prevents them from having this problem.

That's how I see it anyway.
They're fools. You should eat them.
Tollhouse1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States80 Posts
September 03 2011 19:11 GMT
#17
Unless your friend made it to a high masters mark in the bit he played. He has only shitty players to go off of and at those low levels there really is no way to give a general evaluation on the state of the meta game without being very experienced at the game. Especially since macro and good mechanics are such a rare things in those leagues and as such shouldnt be taken as any kind of use to evaluate OP or not.
Terran since Brood War will be Terran till I die love me some Terran
Angra
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2652 Posts
September 03 2011 19:41 GMT
#18
On September 04 2011 02:02 Jermstuddog wrote:
"But Terran can throw his units away, virtually guaranteed to do enough damage, and reproduce faster than his opponent because he has so much production."


what lol


just because your friend is good at other games doesn't mean he has some kind of insight into a game he's hardly ever played before as well.

i played guild wars gvg at a competitive level but that doesn't make me an expert on how dota works just because I mess around in dota for a few games and watch a couple pro games.
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6592 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-03 21:33:17
September 03 2011 19:43 GMT
#19
On September 04 2011 04:11 Tollhouse1 wrote:
Unless your friend made it to a high masters mark in the bit he played. He has only shitty players to go off of and at those low levels there really is no way to give a general evaluation on the state of the meta game without being very experienced at the game. Especially since macro and good mechanics are such a rare things in those leagues and as such shouldnt be taken as any kind of use to evaluate OP or not.


He said from watching pro's play... not from his own experience... Anybody can actually watch and understand the game properly, attacking his friend because he's new is immature even if you do think he's wrong. The fact Terran has been winning every major tournament for the last 2-3 months also doesn't help your point. It makes it seem like his friend knows more than you do =/

@OP I think what you and your friend are missing is that yes T is currently dominating however as a Protoss player from broodwar I can tell you as blizzard keeps making changes it will get better. I think we might just be seeing a Flash / Jaedong scenario and people mistake it for race imba instead of player skill. (in the form of MVP, DRG, and Nestea) Players just need to keep shifting the meta-game as things continue and wait it out.
LiquidDota Staff
UisTehSux
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States693 Posts
September 03 2011 19:47 GMT
#20
On September 04 2011 02:02 Jermstuddog wrote:
"Terran always holds all the cards. They have a better economy through MULEs, their units are more cost effective, and they can't really be counter-attacked. Every game I see a TvX and there is a successful counter, Terran just wins immediately because the other guy can't hold the push. To make matter worse, Terran is the only race that can make a come-back. If you see a Z or P lose 80% of his army to kill 40% of the T army, that game is over. But Terran can throw his units away, virtually guaranteed to do enough damage, and reproduce faster than his opponent because he has so much production."



This made my day, Lol.
I underestimated that boy. No... it was not the boy I underestimated, it was the Triforce of Courage.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
00:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #15
LunaSea vs BabymarineLIVE!
Mixu vs Moja
ArT vs INexorable
HiGhDrA vs Shameless
TBD vs ArT
xJustxJordanx1
Liquipedia
Replay Cast
00:00
uThermal 2v2 Circuit: May
CranKy Ducklings67
Liquipedia
OSC
21:00
Mid Season Playoffs
ArT vs ReBellioN
HonMonO vs Ziomek
Shameless vs LunaSea
MilkiCow vs GgMaChine
Moja vs HiGhDrA
Jumy vs TBD
Demi vs NightPhoenix
Solar vs Cham
SteadfastSC116
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft318
RuFF_SC2 143
SteadfastSC116
ROOTCatZ 68
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 3426
Artosis 771
Sharp 80
Icarus 8
Dota 2
monkeys_forever320
LuMiX0
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K596
taco 523
Other Games
summit1g11062
tarik_tv5756
C9.Mang02646
shahzam1264
ViBE263
ToD113
UpATreeSC81
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream7992
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH280
• Hupsaiya 50
• davetesta32
• HeavenSC 8
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift6056
Other Games
• Scarra1030
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
9h 37m
HiGhDrA vs Nicoract
MaNa vs HiGhDrA
HiGhDrA vs Reynor
Nicoract vs Reynor
MaNa vs Nicoract
MaNa vs Reynor
MaxPax vs Spirit
Krystianer vs Spirit
OSC
11h 37m
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
17h 37m
Korean StarCraft League
1d 1h
SOOP
1d 7h
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
1d 8h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 9h
Cheesadelphia
1d 13h
CSO Cup
1d 15h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 16h
Hawk vs UltrA
Sziky vs spx
TerrOr vs JDConan
[ Show More ]
GSL Code S
2 days
Rogue vs herO
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
Cross vs Doodle
MadiNho vs Dragon
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.