So I was just watching the stream in which Destiny was playing some Protoss from Korea. Fine, I enjoy the play albeit there were some careless mistakes and a lot of one-sided engagements. Destiny uses infestors, the games are what you would expect.
What struck my attention was not the content of the games, but rather the stream chat. There was so much trolling, name-calling, and general negativity in it that I was disgusted to the extent of closing the stream. The caster had a slightly discernible speech problem, and everyone was quick to jump on that fact and insult, blatantly, his mispronunciations, his choice of music, pretty much everything about the stream.
In contrast to the BW community, which was so accepting, welcoming and friendly, the Destiny games left me disgusted. How can people bitch and moan about the most minuscule, unimportant flaws in a caster's observing or speaking? How can they BELIEVE that by making blanket statements, x player is better due to y strategy, etc. I enjoy a good troll myself, but it gets unequivocally stale after the 20th table flip.
I understand that SC2 is much more accessible due to the sheer volume of content available, but does it really make that big of a difference? Were these disgusting people watching BW too or is it because Tasteless, Artosis, Day9, and co. have spoiled viewers with their experienced casting and developed chemistry?
These up-and-coming casters are contributing their time to cast games for the community and deserve insults from NO ONE. If SC2 had as little foreigner coverage as BW, I'm sure none of these downright pitiful trolls would exist.
No one ever gave Cholera, Diggity, NukeTheStars, or MoleTrap any crap for taking time out of their lives to find VODs and provide commentary over them, so why does an abundance of content make people do that? I'm honestly confused someone help me out.
Just as a reminder, the player themselves end up having a large influence over the kind of people who show up in the chats. Try watching Sheth's stream sometime for example. His chat is really really mannered, but so is he. White-Ra's stream also tends to be pretty polite, and Mr. Bitter.
Destiny tends to attract people who voice their opinions with less... manners. That's how he sells himself to viewers. I can never stand the chat in his and Idra's stream.
There are more people, so more assholes. :/ Also yeah, I think a lot of people are spoiled by good commentary, but if you real the LR threads for big events, you will hear people bitching about tasteless and artosis and day9 etc. Just people on the internets.
On August 30 2011 11:04 RedJustice wrote: Just as a reminder, the player themselves end up having a large influence over the kind of people who show up in the chats. Try watching Sheth's stream sometime for example. His chat is really really mannered, but so is he. White-Ra's stream also tends to be pretty polite, and Mr. Bitter.
Destiny tends to attract people who voice their opinions with less... manners. That's how he sells himself to viewers. I can never stand the chat in his and Idra's stream.
There are more people, so more assholes. :/ Also yeah, I think a lot of people are spoiled by good commentary, but if you real the LR threads for big events, you will hear people bitching about tasteless and artosis and day9 etc. Just people on the internets.
this.
Another example is Nony's stream, people in chat are normally manner although he got up to 3K ppl watching his stream.
On August 30 2011 11:12 T.O.P. wrote: Uh. Were you on TL before SC2? All the bw youtube english commentators were disdained on TL. People rather listen to korean commentators.
I started to watch BW when GOM started with the all star invitational, so I guess I was kind of late to the party (and didn't visit TL much either). lilsusie got a lot of flak (undeserved seeing as how she was there so Tasteless didn't have to strain his voice casting as many matches as he did), but I thought Tasteless solo casting was one of the most amazing things ever.
A habit from BW is that I am physically unable to listen to non-Korean commentators. (I'm fucking serious) I also know that a lot of people felt the same way haha. I even muted the TSL2 finals
So in a sense, BW community was way more picky lol.
Also, what the hell is all this "Destiny's fans are immature"
They are human just like you. I'm sure good mannered people who watch good mannered streams still think that sometimes bad-mannered and non-serious stuff is funny. Not all raging and screaming has to come with drama :/
On-Topic I think a large part of it though is that a lot of Destiny viewers are not from TL but rather from reddit and stuff... which doesn't mean that TL viewers are better, but rather a TL viewer viewing his stream might think negatively about the other people watching..
On August 30 2011 11:12 T.O.P. wrote: Uh. Were you on TL before SC2? All the bw youtube english commentators were disdained on TL. People rather listen to korean commentators.
Yeah, this is actually cited by Psyonic reaver, and resulted in them making a completely different website because they were basically shunned from TL.
Anyway, SC2 can be a bit frustrating community-wise, even forums aren't that good, let alone stream chats. I normally only read BW section (I got like 2 posts), and I've pretty much used TL only for replays, writeups and lr threads for a long time, and I don't really feel the need to ever post anything.
SC2 is completely different. I get angry so easily and get hooked in some retarded debates I later always regret spending time on. Also, SC2 scene itself is a lot more dynamic and controversial (out of the game), it's much more similar to other western e-sport communities than BW to be honest.
On August 30 2011 11:12 T.O.P. wrote: Uh. Were you on TL before SC2? All the bw youtube english commentators were disdained on TL. People rather listen to korean commentators.
I started to watch BW when GOM started with the all star invitational, so I guess I was kind of late to the party (and didn't visit TL much either). lilsusie got a lot of flak (undeserved seeing as how she was there so Tasteless didn't have to strain his voice casting as many matches as he did), but I thought Tasteless solo casting was one of the most amazing things ever.
Tasteless was criticized too. I remember that he showed up to work not knowing who was playing that day or who the players are.
No one ever gave Cholera, Diggity, NukeTheStars, or MoleTrap any crap for taking time out of their lives to find VODs and provide commentary over them,
No one ever gave Cholera, Diggity, NukeTheStars, or MoleTrap any crap for taking time out of their lives to find VODs and provide commentary over them,
are you serious?
He's got some fine rose-tinted glasses.
You cannot take Destiny and his fans as representative as the SC2 community. They are one extreme. (Though I really do like Destiny and watching him play nonetheless.)
No one ever gave Cholera, Diggity, NukeTheStars, or MoleTrap any crap for taking time out of their lives to find VODs and provide commentary over them, so why does an abundance of content make people do that? I'm honestly confused someone help me out.
I've caught plenty of flak over the years, actually. But, it's just the nature of the beast. It's what the internet is all about - people getting angry over free content. Someone will just go "I don't enjoy this content... so it shouldn't be popular or even extant!!"
yeah man, there's haters for everything. you see them everywhere even on TL, which is one of the best moderated sites in the entire universe (100% fact). can't do much about it, you know?
The shittiness of chat channels depends on time, context, and simply the type of people that come onto those channels, as people mentioned...not really dependent on game I think. It's quite similar to Youtube comments...I remember a lot of YT comments on Nuke's vids bitching and moaning about how he was doing "popcorn"-lolfuckthis-commentaries for tiebreaker games that didn't matter and it's essentially the same lack of appreciation.
That and there was that trollgame by Hoejja vs Horang2 on NBR where Hoejja went 1base muta and abused BR's ridges and this guy started railing against Horang2 as a noob. lolno.
On August 30 2011 11:12 T.O.P. wrote: Uh. Were you on TL before SC2? All the bw youtube english commentators were disdained on TL. People rather listen to korean commentators.
I started to watch BW when GOM started with the all star invitational, so I guess I was kind of late to the party (and didn't visit TL much either). lilsusie got a lot of flak (undeserved seeing as how she was there so Tasteless didn't have to strain his voice casting as many matches as he did), but I thought Tasteless solo casting was one of the most amazing things ever.
Tasteless was criticized too. I remember that he showed up to work not knowing who was playing that day or who the players are.
Tasteless/Artosis in TSL2 were pretty bad too, and most people wanted (and voted for i think?) Chill/Day9 to do the final because of it.
On August 30 2011 10:55 6d.Leek wrote: No one ever gave Cholera, Diggity, NukeTheStars, or MoleTrap any crap for taking time out of their lives to find VODs and provide commentary over them, so why does an abundance of content make people do that? I'm honestly confused someone help me out.
dude they got a lot of shit,I think thats how sc2gg came to be no?
Well, BW is a perhaps intellectually deeper game, it is a thinking man's game. The masses will not be allured by the 2d graphics and lack of particle effects. But the people that do, are all the more treasurous.
On August 30 2011 10:55 6d.Leek wrote: No one ever gave Cholera, Diggity, NukeTheStars, or MoleTrap any crap for taking time out of their lives to find VODs and provide commentary over them, so why does an abundance of content make people do that? I'm honestly confused someone help me out.
On August 30 2011 10:55 6d.Leek wrote: No one ever gave Cholera, Diggity, NukeTheStars, or MoleTrap any crap for taking time out of their lives to find VODs and provide commentary over them, so why does an abundance of content make people do that? I'm honestly confused someone help me out.
What? Tons of people did.
Uhh with BW it was the feeling that the game was sacred. There is a certain aura that comes with being the best game of its genre - and it is that deep respect and humbleness people held towards content related to it - including the commentators.
With SC2, its more of a corporate produced mass consumption attitude that people hold towards the content. They consume it, and if they dont feel happy about it, they complain and let themselves be heard. This may have some advantages, but it also means the community cannot quite have the deep uniting chord that everyone agrees with. Everyting is up for bargain, imbalance is to be whine about, commentators are to be disrespected.
I want to highlight something that was mentioned, and that's the availability/accessibility of streams in English (or other languages). With SCBW English streams were severely limited, and majority of the viewers were content with listening to Korean commentary. Now, with the abundance of SC2 streams in English, viewers have a large pool to choose from, and that essentially spoils them into expecting the best in every stream.
Age is probably another large factor - SCBW generation (as of now) are much older, on average, than the SC2 generation. Age doesn't always correlate with maturity, but in most cases, the years (of being active in a gaming community such as TL) teach you how to behave.
With that, I'm going to say that SC2 spectators, should they hang around, will gradually "behave better" and mature with the game.
On August 31 2011 02:10 OpticalShot wrote: I want to highlight something that was mentioned, and that's the availability/accessibility of streams in English (or other languages). With SCBW English streams were severely limited, and majority of the viewers were content with listening to Korean commentary. Now, with the abundance of SC2 streams in English, viewers have a large pool to choose from, and that essentially spoils them into expecting the best in every stream.
Age is probably another large factor - SCBW generation (as of now) are much older, on average, than the SC2 generation. Age doesn't always correlate with maturity, but in most cases, the years (of being active in a gaming community such as TL) teach you how to behave.
With that, I'm going to say that SC2 spectators, should they hang around, will gradually "behave better" and mature with the game.
I didn't like English streams very much, if only because the Korean commentary sounded so funny. xD
It's also because I like to watch the game for myself at times.
That's probably why I mute all the SC2 streams that I watch.
I still remember in the BW days. TL had pretty high standards for casters/posters. You had to know what you were talking about. I still remember when I asked "Who is Nada" in a post, I got flamed to death. Yah, learned from that haha. But that's what made TL:BW so professional.
On August 30 2011 10:55 6d.Leek wrote: No one ever gave Cholera, Diggity, NukeTheStars, or MoleTrap any crap for taking time out of their lives to find VODs and provide commentary over them, so why does an abundance of content make people do that? I'm honestly confused someone help me out.
What? Tons of people did.
Uhh with BW it was the feeling that the game was sacred. There is a certain aura that comes with being the best game of its genre - and it is that deep respect and humbleness people held towards content related to it - including the commentators.
With SC2, its more of a corporate produced mass consumption attitude that people hold towards the content. They consume it, and if they dont feel happy about it, they complain and let themselves be heard. This may have some advantages, but it also means the community cannot quite have the deep uniting chord that everyone agrees with. Everyting is up for bargain, imbalance is to be whine about, commentators are to be disrespected.
That's simply the result of 13 years of success vs 1, nothing more.
And I dont really get at all what that has to do with Chills first post...
like he said SC2gg commentators got a lot of negative feedback so the OP is simply wrong in that aspect. A more extreme example than Diggity, Cholera would be Klazart (And of course Combat-Ex but there were (/are) a lot of reasons to dislike him)
It's hard for the bw community to hate when you have bisu to swoon over. And leta. what a cutie. Love is in the air!
bw foreign players/commentators suffered a lot of hate too, most of it trolling or completely unwarranted, in the community.
I think the main difference is that I don't think people truly hated korean players as much. It seems to me that some sc2 koreans were hated just because people thought it was a cool thing to do i.e. "I hate thebest because artosis said he was terrible!" or basically the equivalent of that (rain is bad because he 2rax'd all in a lot!!!". I think that has died down some, but as far as I can tell people didn't actually really hate any of the bw players. People joke about hating *insert player shine X* for *beating player bisu Y* but I didn't get the impression it was serious. And it was inspired because they beat their favourite player, not for a generic style of play (as with rain example or "because he plays terran!!!!!!111!")
Of course, everybody fights over fanboyism every now and then, but they don't hate the player themselves.
On September 01 2011 04:38 N.geNuity wrote: It's hard for the bw community to hate when you have bisu to swoon over. And leta. what a cutie. Love is in the air!
bw foreign players/commentators suffered a lot of hate too, most of it trolling or completely unwarranted, in the community.
I think the main difference is that I don't think people truly hated korean players as much. It seems to me that some sc2 koreans were hated just because people thought it was a cool thing to do i.e. "I hate thebest because artosis said he was terrible!" or basically the equivalent of that (rain is bad because he 2rax'd all in a lot!!!". I think that has died down some, but as far as I can tell people didn't actually really hate any of the bw players. People joke about hating *insert player shine X* for *beating player bisu Y* but I didn't get the impression it was serious. And it was inspired because they beat their favourite player, not for a generic style of play (as with rain example or "because he plays terran!!!!!!111!")
Of course, everybody fights over fanboyism every now and then, but they don't hate the player themselves.
Yea this is all bullshit imo. Theres a lot of Shine antifans, theres a lot of bisu antifans, theres a lot of Flash antifans... Of course you dont see that many posts as in SC2 because theres way way way more people in SC2, but theres always a very logical, simple reason behind it that is not sth silly like "BW fans nicer than SC2 fans" Age can also make a difference, if theres a lot of 12 year old idiots who started following progamign through SC2 it only makes sense that theres more rude comments than BW which is usually followed by people that are 20 years old or older.
BW had its share of idiots but most of them probably switched to SC2. Combine that with the fact that a lot of immature people came to SC2 to begin with, you get this.
EPT
