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Active: 19243 users

Transsexuals and TL.net

Blogs > Iyerbeth
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Iyerbeth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England2410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 20:06:40
August 13 2011 16:21 GMT
#1
Following a recent thread which I don't want to bring up in this blog as it's gotten too much attention for a member of our community already, I wanted to try to share some knowledge and maybe stop some of the absolutely disgusting comments I've seen in recent days regarding people with any form of Gender Identity Disorder (Transsexuals).

Please do not bring up any threads or people on TL.net when replying to this post! I do not want my blog being used to emotionally attack anyone.

OK, so first some basic terms for those unfamiliar with them.

Transsexual – Someone born with characteristics of a sex that does not conform with their gender identity.

+ Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +
That is the complete definition, it has nothing to do with any medical treatment (surgical, psychological or pharmaceutical), sexual preferences or fetishes, personality or even conforming with gender stereotypes. It is not a weekend hobby, it is a core identity. As much as you are male or female and couldn't change that, the same is true for a trans person. If you woke up tomorrow biological the opposite sex, you would still be the same person you are now. Gender is an identity, not a body type (or more crudely but more often worded as “it's what's between your head, not your legs”).


Transvestite – Someone who engages in cross-dressing, which is to say dressing in clothes typically reserved for people belonging to the opposite sex.

+ Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +
Transvestite is a term used to describe people who cross-dress. Whilst it is common that this is for sexual gratification, that isn't always the case but the important distinction is that the individual still identifies with their biological sex. A male transvestite dressed as a woman is still a man, and unlike a transsexual would not be offended by being classed as such, though often it's is proper to refer to them as the gender they're displaying this is a case by case thing. Referring to a transsexual as a transvestite is to literally say “You're not a woman, you're a man dressed as a woman” and that is extremely hurtful.


Cis-gendered: Someone for who biological and psychological sex and gender align. Basically a non transgendered person.

Androgynous: A person who exhibits both male and female typical sexual markers.

+ Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +
Androgynous people cover a large group. Colloquially it refers to someone who in appearance appears unidentifiable on the scale of man to woman. The literal meaning is someone though who expresses both masculine and feminine biological traits, sometimes to the extent that determining a gender identify from them without their input is not possible. Hermaphrodites (those born with sex organs of both sexes) are often put in to this category.


Genderqueer: A person who identifies as neither male or female.

+ Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +
Whilst for practical purposes a pronoun is usually apparent, those who identify as genderqueer could not be identified on a binary scale of male or female, but rather find comfort somewhere in the middle. Because of just how wide this definition is I can't really give a more in depth description than that, they come as a case by case basis. I don't know anyone who identifies as Genderqueer personally so I'm hoping someone else might be able to help here.


Transgender: This is an umbrella term for anyone who's expression of gender doesn't match that typically assigned at birth. This can literally cover everyone from transsexuals to transvestites to androgynous people and genderqueer individuals.

OK, so now we're all familiar with the terms let's get to the point. This post was originally going to be a massive rant on the absolutely horrible things I've seen posted recently but it occurred to me that the problem is more likely that people merely don't understand the issues or how hurtful they're being to others. At least I hope that's the case, and given the way the media portrays Transgendered people and often misuses terms I'm assuming it's likely.

OK, so as you'll have read above or already known a transsexual is someone that as a person does not identify with the sex of their body. The most common way that people are familiar with this issue is those who really don't pass well (can't blend in as their actual gender) or with 'Thai Lady boys'.

It's worth noting that Lady boy is definitely not a polite term to use to describe a transsexual, and often the people selling themselves as such have no interest in changing the sex. While some groups still use the term and understand it to mean that, it is literally saying it is a male lady, in the same way as that most vile of terms 'shemale'. Both, when used to describe a transsexual are terms invented by bigots to separate trans women (Male to Female Transsexuals) from the cis-gender one's. If you're not a bigot and you're talking a transwoman, don't use them.

There are also trans men (Female to Male Transsexuals) and figures show they're actually at least as common, although given the ease of obtaining the necessary drugs and so not having to visit a Dr officially, there are likely many more that are not on anyone's record. Because the effects of the appropriate male hormones are very obvious it isn't as common to notice a trans man. I should note I'm using the term 'trans man' and 'trans woman' here for explanation purposes. For all intents and purposes, trans men are simply 'men' and trans women are simply 'women', and those are the only acceptable terms. A trans man is not a 'miss', etc.

When talking with a transsexual, some things are just rude to bring up and I'll explain what and why and hopefully make interactions far more normal, as they should be.

First, transsexualism is a medically recognised issue known more commonly as 'Gender Identity Disorder' (GID). When you laugh at someone or post that "This is awesome ROFL!!!" upon learning that they have GID, you're literally laughing at them as people, laughing at their core identity, laughing at a private medical issue that has nothing to do with you and putting another hurdle in place separating a trans person from being able to comfortably live life as the person they are. It is not OK.

laughing at someone for GID is as sick as laughing at an Anorexic, doing your best to make sure they know how fat they were and how they'll never fit in. Yes, GID kills too that wasn't an understatement of the serious struggles faced by Anorexics (I almost lost a cousin to it). The usual statistic you'll hear for trans suicide rates is 50% although figures can generally put the rate at 5 times that of non trans people. The number of successful suicides in GID patients is somewhere around 1 in 25. Together that is to say no where near 50% but a hell of a lot of people struggling with serious depression and that's only counting the one's who make it to being on a record before being unable to continue on. Hopefully this paragraph alone will go some way to explaining the absolute sickening feeling I felt reading through recent comments on this site, especially with so few warning or bans handed out to those attacking members of our community.

So yes, after just laughing at the issue, the next thing is discussing a trans persons medical treatment. You wouldn't go up to someone on the street and say "Hi, I couldn't help but notice you've got a bit of a limp in your step, how's the ointment for your d**k working out?" because, well first they're likely to beat the s**t out of you and second, it's none of your business. A trans person's genitals are off limits to you unless they say otherwise. No it's not OK to ask unless you know they're comfortable with answering. Pre-op or post-op questions out of the way (as they're the most offensive I think) any other questions about their medical treatment or regime are off limits unless you know them well enough to know otherwise. Use common sense, they're people.

Finally trying to find out details about their past life as the opposite gender is out of the question too. "What was your name", or "Do you have a picture of you before" might sound innocuous enough but it's once again reaffirming that person is not who they are now, but can't escape what they were then. Once again, the only time questions on this are acceptable are when you're close enough to the person to know they're OK with it.

Finally, whilst the issue has only slightly been brought up on this site, thankfully, the radical feminist view. Some people, vocally announced by someone who I'll not name here as they deserve no attention at all, believe that trans men are giving up on womanhood to take up male privilege, and that trans women are just trying to 'fetishise' the female form or abuse women who might "mistake" them for a "real" woman. I don't feel I should have to address these points really but as we're here, transsexuality is not based on what you want, it's based on what and who you are. Given the extreme struggles many Transsexuals face, and the extensive studies in to the subject and the absolutely huge range of people and issues that go in to it, generalisations like this are revolting generalisations of an ignorant bigot and have no place in a rational society beyond being dismantled and forgotten.

I should add, not all radical feminists hold this view fortunately, I simply wanted to address the points.

I'm running out of time so I'll have to leave this post there, I've covered pretty much everything I wanted to though. I guess, in short all I'm asking is that people treat other's with respect, regardless of who they are and how they got there.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: I had wanted to cover more of the scientific and research side of things in my original OP but ran out of time and decided I could safely wrap up the post without doing any real harm to the point or respecting people and understanding. However as the discussion has continued fusionsdf posted the following and gave me permission to add it to the OP, and I feel it's worth having here.

On August 14 2011 04:01 fusionsdf wrote:
Actually I didn't address what I really wanted to last post, mainly that its a conflict of a physical body and a physical brain, where the sex of the body is opposite (or different from) the sex of the brain. I use 'sex' of the brain because it is an observable physical difference; not psychology or new age mysticism.

* Transsexual gene link identified
* Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
* Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids
* Regional Grey Matter Variation in Male-to-Female Transsexuality
* A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity.
* White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study.
* A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality
* Typical female 2nd–4th finger length (2D:4D) ratios in male-to-female transsexuals—possible implications for prenatal androgen exposure

As you can see, there has been a LOT of research in this field. Trying to use psychology to get around the physical brain/identity would be a bit like a psychologist trying to convince a patient he is a rock. Trying to convince a woman she is a man (or vice versa) is not something easily achieved (or imo even desirable).

tl;dr: BAM, FACTS



I should add I've not yet been able to verify all the links myself, though they are in line with my understanding of the current state of modern medicine and should be interesting for those interested in reading more on that aspect.

The general message remains the same though - Please treat everyone with respect, and think before posting about specific people (trans or not).

***
♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ Liquid`TLO ♥
RedJustice
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1004 Posts
August 13 2011 16:38 GMT
#2
Thanks.

It's good to read a post like this where someone wants to educate others to be more loving and understanding about people instead of the outside appearances.
Jennykai
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden2 Posts
August 13 2011 16:42 GMT
#3
Thank you for writing all this down, i've managed to avoid horrible comments like those you talk about on TL, but it's a constant thing everywhere else on the internet and it's nice to hear something positive outside of actual LGBT forums.
Live, be happy, and don't bother me.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
August 13 2011 16:45 GMT
#4
I also have problems with my identity and my body. I've always felt like I'm supposed to be really good looking, like a model. Inside, I just feel handsome, like I should be a bad-ass-looking James Bond type of guy. When I see myself in the mirror, it just feels like it's not me.

"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Ravencruiser
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada519 Posts
August 13 2011 16:46 GMT
#5
Good info thanks.

I can put on on my vile of politeness and say that I can tolerate transgenders, but deep down I still disapprove and am disgusted by their actions; shooting hormones and undergoing sexual reassignment surgery is just revolting as fuck. A parallel would be pedophiles; they can't help how they feel just like transgenders, but it's disgusting when they do decide to act upon their urges. The main difference between the two is legality of course.

I'm sorry but nothing can change that.

User was temp banned for this post.
"Yah, free will is a bitch" - Drone
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 16:48:03
August 13 2011 16:47 GMT
#6
Wait, are you getting mad at people's attitudes towards transsexuals on the Internet or real life?

If it is the former you are quite foolish.

PS: The above poster should open his closed mind a bit more.
Newbistic
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
China2912 Posts
August 13 2011 16:48 GMT
#7
| | |
| | |
| | |
o-|-< <---- Your message



/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ <----- TL's deaf ears
========

Interesting read. But unfortunately I don't think you can teach respect to a bunch of angry internet nerds with a tsunami of text. Transexuals rank somewhere below other shit storm inducers like women, moletrap becoming a permanent Code A caster, and even (especially) dogs. You might as well try to prevent rising ocean levels by holding your pee in.
Logic is Overrated
Jinsho
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom3101 Posts
August 13 2011 16:55 GMT
#8
It is my opinion that people with GID need psychological help, not surgery.
tMomiji
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1115 Posts
August 13 2011 16:58 GMT
#9
Well thanks for trying, but this IS the internet, and y'know...

Not much else need be said but I appreciate the effort.
"I wonder if there is a league below copper? If so, I would like to inhabit it." -TotalBiscuit "In the event of a sudden change in cabin pressure, ROOF FLIES OFF!" -George Carlin <3 HerO <3 Kiwikaki <3 MKP
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
August 13 2011 17:04 GMT
#10
Youll be surprised how many internet nerds have a secret crush on transvestites.. its not a staple topic in communities like 4chan for no reasonyou know
Aah thats the stuff..
Ravencruiser
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada519 Posts
August 13 2011 17:06 GMT
#11
On August 14 2011 01:47 Geovu wrote:
Wait, are you getting mad at people's attitudes towards transsexuals on the Internet or real life?

If it is the former you are quite foolish.

PS: The above poster should open his closed mind a bit more.


I'm pretty sure this guy words what I and most others feel a lot better than I did.

On August 14 2011 01:55 Jinsho wrote:
It is my opinion that people with GID need psychological help, not surgery.
"Yah, free will is a bitch" - Drone
Redmark
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada2129 Posts
August 13 2011 17:11 GMT
#12
On August 14 2011 02:06 Ravencruiser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 01:47 Geovu wrote:
Wait, are you getting mad at people's attitudes towards transsexuals on the Internet or real life?

If it is the former you are quite foolish.

PS: The above poster should open his closed mind a bit more.


I'm pretty sure this guy words what I and most others feel a lot better than I did.

Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 01:55 Jinsho wrote:
It is my opinion that people with GID need psychological help, not surgery.

That's great but an opinion is pretty useless unless you explain your argument. "I just don't like it" isn't really an argument.
Lucumo
Profile Joined January 2010
6850 Posts
August 13 2011 17:23 GMT
#13
Considering that we are supposed to reproduce, the biological body is all that matters. You weren't born in a wrong body, it's just that your mind is not right. Seeking psychological help is the way to go, I agree with other users there. But nowadays it's easier to change your biological body, so people take that path.
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 17:36:56
August 13 2011 17:31 GMT
#14
i do think sexuality is very greatly psychological , and can be shaped psychologically. i feel you need to take a step back and let go of your obsessions and compulsions, and experience totally new and alien things, before you allow yourself to embrace a particular thing. that said and done, in the end you need to do what makes you happy - just dont trust in yourself so much and so quickly that it blinds you from other experiences

(i dont disapprove of it, just it is easy to embrace such a strong a part of yourself without truely putting yourself out there and experiencing and understanding your reality. just an example, i have a friend who was straight for most of his life, but after some years of isolation and anime suddenly turned homosexual. i always had a lingering doubt that he could someday become straight again as his psychological world continued to revolve. another example, a lot of friends turned to lolicon after isolation and internet, and i feel they embraced something and began to revere it simply because they werent experiencing anything else)
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
Hermasaurus
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
54 Posts
August 13 2011 17:40 GMT
#15
On August 14 2011 01:46 Ravencruiser wrote:
Good info thanks.

I can put on on my vile of politeness and say that I can tolerate transgenders, but deep down I still disapprove and am disgusted by their actions; shooting hormones and undergoing sexual reassignment surgery is just revolting as fuck. A parallel would be pedophiles; they can't help how they feel just like transgenders, but it's disgusting when they do decide to act upon their urges. The main difference between the two is legality of course.

I'm sorry but nothing can change that.


I'm afraid the two are about as nonparallel as the sun and the moon.

Transgender acting on their urges doesn't defile the rights of others. Instead of spreading your fear and hate, write your posts down in a notepad save it and reformat your computer. Just to be sure it doesn't make its way into an intelligent, open minded conversation.
And guess what, you've wandered into our school of tuna and we now have a taste of lion. We've talked to ourselves. We've communicated and said 'You know what, lion tastes good, let's go get some more lion'
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
August 13 2011 17:54 GMT
#16
On August 14 2011 01:46 Ravencruiser wrote:
Good info thanks.

I can put on on my vile of politeness and say that I can tolerate transgenders, but deep down I still disapprove and am disgusted by their actions; shooting hormones and undergoing sexual reassignment surgery is just revolting as fuck. A parallel would be pedophiles; they can't help how they feel just like transgenders, but it's disgusting when they do decide to act upon their urges. The main difference between the two is legality of course.

I'm sorry but nothing can change that.


They aren't even slightly related. Trans is not about sex or attraction to anyone, its not a 'hunger.' It's simply an identity, hardwired in your brain from birth (there are numerous studies which attest to this fact.) In other words if you were the only person stranded on a deserted island for the rest of your life, you would still be trans and still want to transition.

The most glaring difference is that trans people don't hurt anyone, they just live their lives. As someone who has friends that have been abused as children, fuck you.
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
aphorism
Profile Joined February 2011
United States226 Posts
August 13 2011 17:57 GMT
#17
On August 14 2011 02:23 Lucumo wrote:
Considering that we are supposed to reproduce, the biological body is all that matters. You weren't born in a wrong body, it's just that your mind is not right. Seeking psychological help is the way to go, I agree with other users there. But nowadays it's easier to change your biological body, so people take that path.


It's also possible for couples biologically incapable of reproducing to still raise children through means like surrogates and adoption, and just because something makes one unable to reproduce, that doesn't mean that there is something 'not right' in the mind of these people. 'Psychological help' for these issues is often unsuccessful, damaging to mental health and self-esteem, and it reinforces the pervasive idea in our society that not being heterosexual and/or cisgendered is wrong (just look at conversion therapy).
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
August 13 2011 18:27 GMT
#18
As I posted in the other thread, gender is what is between your ears not your legs

and like I showed in the other thread, you're looking at two former guys

[image loading]
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
FourFace
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
701 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 18:48:44
August 13 2011 18:43 GMT
#19
I don't believe it
Coolest Transvestite:



I don't know, lynch me!
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
August 13 2011 18:44 GMT
#20
On August 14 2011 02:23 Lucumo wrote:
Considering that we are supposed to reproduce, the biological body is all that matters. You weren't born in a wrong body, it's just that your mind is not right. Seeking psychological help is the way to go, I agree with other users there. But nowadays it's easier to change your biological body, so people take that path.


Its not easier to change your body. The various surgeries (which some get and some don't) cost 10s of thousands of dollars (or more).

The reason we do hormones/surgery isn't because its easier to change the body, but because its impossible to change the mind. Just look at David Reimer. In the hundred+ years studying trans people, there have never been any true successes using psychology to 'make it go away.' And this includes electroshock and aversion therapy etc. If you can't make people stop being gay or straight, why is it so hard to believe you can't change them being trans?

If you consider the results of transphobic attitude, it's very clear that something needs to be done, and educating the public is an important step.


A staggering 41% of [trans people] reported attempting suicide compared to 1.6% of the general population, with rates rising for those who lost a job due to bias (55%), were harassed/bullied in school (51%), had low household income, or were the victim of physical assault (61%) or sexual assault (64%).



Respondents lived in extreme poverty. Our sample was nearly four
times more likely to have a household income of less than $10,000/
year compared to the general population.



Those who expressed a transgender identity or gender non-conformity while in grades K-12 reported alarming rates of
harassment (78%), physical assault (35%) and sexual violence (12%); harassment was so severe that it led almost
one-sixth (15%) to leave a school in K-12 settings or in higher education.



• Double the rate of unemployment: Survey respondents experienced unemployment at twice the rate of the general
population at the time of the survey,v with rates for people of color up to four times the national unemployment rate.
• Widespread mistreatment at work: Ninety percent (90%) of those surveyed reported experiencing harassment, mistreatment or discrimination on the job or took actions like hiding who they are to avoid it. Respondents who had lost a job due to bias also experienced ruinous consequences such as four times the rate of homelessness, 70% more current drinking or misuse of drugs to cope with mistreatment, 85% more incarceration, more than double the rate working in the underground economy, and more than double the HIV infection rate, compared to those who did not lose a job due to bias.



• One-fi fth (19%) reported experiencing homelessness at some
point in their lives because they were transgender or gender nonconforming;
the majority of those trying to access a homeless
shelter were harassed by shelter staff or residents (55%), 29%
were turned away altogether, and 22% were sexually assaulted by
residents or staff .



• Refusal of care: 19% of our sample reported being refused medical
care due to their transgender or gender non-conforming status, with
even higher numbers among people of color in the survey.

- http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_summary.pdf

No reason to hate on people who already have hard lives
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
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