• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:13
CEST 03:13
KST 10:13
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors6[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists17[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers19Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid25
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists MaNa leaves Team Liquid Maestros of the Game 2 announced 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers INu's Battles#14 <BO.9 2Matches> GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss
Brood War
General
FlaSh: This Will Be My Final ASL【ASL S21 Ro.16】 Leta's ASL S21 Ro.16 review [ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL21 General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group D Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [ASL21] Ro16 Group C
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Diablo IV Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1643 users

Droning On #4: Sharp Learning Curve

Blogs > Umpteen
Post a Reply
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-05 14:57:23
August 04 2011 13:31 GMT
#1
ZvP on Backwater Gulch

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Zealot rush into turtling on first one and then two bases before trying for the standard zealot/stalker/colossus deathball.
My response: After dealing with the zealots I scouted his expansion and went for three base mutalisk. With the map control that gave me I was able to deny attempts at taking a third, establish six bases mining gas and simply overwhelm his stalker numbers with mutalisks.

Specific Lessons Learned:

I was really pleased with my macro and decision-making in this game. I made a conscious choice to play a long game, taking lots of expansions and denying his, and I never gave him a chance to recover after the initial zealot rush failed.

ZvP on Xel'Naga Caverns

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Attempted cannon rush/proxy (spotted and killed probe, took no damage) into three-gate zealot (scouted his gates, killed zealots with roaches, took no damage) into turtling behind a couple of dozen cannons on two bases, then making void rays and a mothership. Which he then a-moved for the win.

Specific Lessons Learned:

It seems it's not possible to build enough +1 mutalisks off four bases worth of gas to compete with void ray production off two bases worth of gas. That came as something of a surprise. I thought I would be able to keep dipping in, sniping a couple of Voids and backing out before they built charge, but it seems they scale too well for that.

I can only assume infestors are the way to go if the game gets to that point, since everything else I have at my disposal is worse at killing Void Rays than mutalisks are. Unfortunately it's probably going to be ages before I encounter that unit composition again to test it out.

More realistically, I think a strong two-base hydralisk push would have won the game for me at a much earlier stage, since that would have hit when the early advantage I'd gained was at its greatest.

EDIT: After much experimentation in the unit tester, I discovered the following:

1. Corruptors don't win, gas for gas, against Void Rays. They do a little better than mutalisks, but not much. Not for the first time I feel Corruptors, the only absolutely dedicated A-A unit in the game, are a bit short-changed in the range department.

3. Infestors can win the fight very efficiently, but it's tricky and you need a lot of room to retreat. Fungaling the leading void rays doesn't block the ones at the back, so they can come through and attack. A combination of fungals and infested terrans works best, maybe with corruptor/hydra support.

2. Hydras slaughter void rays gas-for-gas. If I had hosed out Hydra off my three/four bases he would have lost very hard indeed. The only caveat is that the food cap prevents Hydra continuing to scale to deal with larger numbers of VRs.

The State of the Brain

The loss on Xel'Naga caverns tested my new-found resolve to the limit. Here was someone who tried to proxy/cannon rush me and failed, tried to zealot rush me and failed, tucked himself away behind cannons while I took the rest of the map, built one type of unit with a mothership cherry on top and just a-moved through me.

Remarkably, I managed to stay calm. The fault was mine, after all, in thinking he wouldn't be able to hit a critical mass versus mutalisks off two bases. Nor did I do anything clever like split my forces or build infestors. I let him do something easy that won him the game.

On the other hand I did really well in preventing him winning with two equally easy strategies right at the start, so providing I can work on my decision-making and take better advantage in future, I should be able to win more games that play out this way.

Thanks for reading.

*****
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
August 04 2011 13:38 GMT
#2
You have an incredibly mature presentation of your learning and experiences. It was refreshing Keep up the good work.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Khazroul
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom206 Posts
August 04 2011 13:57 GMT
#3
Another good write-up. It would be interesting to see the XNC replay, you don't mention if he managed to get any air upgrades, but also to see in what way you "dipped in and out" with your mutas.
It can sometime be detrimental since the VRs will begin shooting earlier and end later than your mutas unless you manage some "stutter stepping" micro on the way out, plus with shield regen you'd need to focus fire the VRs to make good dents in his army each time.

Either way, keep fighting and writing <3
RaLakedaimon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1564 Posts
August 04 2011 13:59 GMT
#4
I could honestly read a whole book written in this style on ladder game/custom game experience, very nicely written. Its amazing but audio/text both are just as good as actual video footage of SC, it seems to just work. Again very nicely written was a fun read.
lolsixtynine
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States600 Posts
August 04 2011 15:14 GMT
#5
For the record, corruptors are the best ATA in the game by gas cost if you can keep the VR count from getting too high (which you need to actively do). Infestors will absolutely crush a VR stack if you have them supported with corruptors.
HackBenjamin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1094 Posts
August 04 2011 15:40 GMT
#6
Good read. I have a friend who abuses vr mothership builds, especially on larger maps vs zerg. A couple of tactics I've seen other zergs use against this are:

Periodic Hydra drops before he reaches a crtical mass of void rays, to keep the count down

Large numbers of infestors. Getting a few fungals off on a big stack of voids helps. Neural the mothership and have some fun

Enough corruptors to take down a mothership quickly, followed up by a big muta ball to handle the voids

A teching protoss is a vulnerable protoss. Scout as much as possible and watch for good timings. It gets harder when he turtles up with cannons, and he probably will due to the excess minerals he will have from a gas dependant build such as this. Try a roach baneling attack to get past that
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 17:00:06
August 04 2011 16:58 GMT
#7
I would be furious at that protoss and I play protoss.
Excellent read, you have a good process for analyzing your games.

If your opponent is actually 1a-ing a VR deathball then a dozen infestors can kill the whole ball with fungal because of clumping. I wouldnt wish that loss on anyone :p
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
CranKy Ducklings
00:00
TLMC #22: The Finalists
CranKy Ducklings56
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 269
RuFF_SC2 130
ProTech123
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 5422
Artosis 809
Horang2 487
Mind 71
NaDa 19
ajuk12(nOOB) 7
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1198
League of Legends
Doublelift4955
JimRising 632
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1721
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang01052
Mew2King231
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor182
Other Games
gofns19814
tarik_tv12595
summit1g11635
crisheroes265
Maynarde121
-ZergGirl85
ToD45
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1037
BasetradeTV240
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 86
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 23
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie1089
• Scarra987
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 47m
Afreeca Starleague
8h 47m
Soma vs hero
Wardi Open
9h 47m
Monday Night Weeklies
14h 47m
Replay Cast
22h 47m
Replay Cast
1d 7h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 8h
Leta vs YSC
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Escore
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
IPSL
5 days
Ret vs Art_Of_Turtle
Radley vs TBD
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
BSL
6 days
IPSL
6 days
eOnzErG vs TBD
G5 vs Nesh
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W4
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W5
KK 2v2 League Season 1
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.