• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 03:22
CET 09:22
KST 17:22
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)8Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns6[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises3
StarCraft 2
General
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises Starcraft 2 Zerg Coach
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) WardiTV Winter Cup WardiTV Mondays SC2 AI Tournament 2026 OSC Season 13 World Championship
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution
Brood War
General
Potential ASL qualifier breakthroughs? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ I would like to say something about StarCraft BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Mechabellum Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Psychological Factors That D…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1755 users

Droning On #4: Sharp Learning Curve

Blogs > Umpteen
Post a Reply
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-05 14:57:23
August 04 2011 13:31 GMT
#1
ZvP on Backwater Gulch

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Zealot rush into turtling on first one and then two bases before trying for the standard zealot/stalker/colossus deathball.
My response: After dealing with the zealots I scouted his expansion and went for three base mutalisk. With the map control that gave me I was able to deny attempts at taking a third, establish six bases mining gas and simply overwhelm his stalker numbers with mutalisks.

Specific Lessons Learned:

I was really pleased with my macro and decision-making in this game. I made a conscious choice to play a long game, taking lots of expansions and denying his, and I never gave him a chance to recover after the initial zealot rush failed.

ZvP on Xel'Naga Caverns

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Attempted cannon rush/proxy (spotted and killed probe, took no damage) into three-gate zealot (scouted his gates, killed zealots with roaches, took no damage) into turtling behind a couple of dozen cannons on two bases, then making void rays and a mothership. Which he then a-moved for the win.

Specific Lessons Learned:

It seems it's not possible to build enough +1 mutalisks off four bases worth of gas to compete with void ray production off two bases worth of gas. That came as something of a surprise. I thought I would be able to keep dipping in, sniping a couple of Voids and backing out before they built charge, but it seems they scale too well for that.

I can only assume infestors are the way to go if the game gets to that point, since everything else I have at my disposal is worse at killing Void Rays than mutalisks are. Unfortunately it's probably going to be ages before I encounter that unit composition again to test it out.

More realistically, I think a strong two-base hydralisk push would have won the game for me at a much earlier stage, since that would have hit when the early advantage I'd gained was at its greatest.

EDIT: After much experimentation in the unit tester, I discovered the following:

1. Corruptors don't win, gas for gas, against Void Rays. They do a little better than mutalisks, but not much. Not for the first time I feel Corruptors, the only absolutely dedicated A-A unit in the game, are a bit short-changed in the range department.

3. Infestors can win the fight very efficiently, but it's tricky and you need a lot of room to retreat. Fungaling the leading void rays doesn't block the ones at the back, so they can come through and attack. A combination of fungals and infested terrans works best, maybe with corruptor/hydra support.

2. Hydras slaughter void rays gas-for-gas. If I had hosed out Hydra off my three/four bases he would have lost very hard indeed. The only caveat is that the food cap prevents Hydra continuing to scale to deal with larger numbers of VRs.

The State of the Brain

The loss on Xel'Naga caverns tested my new-found resolve to the limit. Here was someone who tried to proxy/cannon rush me and failed, tried to zealot rush me and failed, tucked himself away behind cannons while I took the rest of the map, built one type of unit with a mothership cherry on top and just a-moved through me.

Remarkably, I managed to stay calm. The fault was mine, after all, in thinking he wouldn't be able to hit a critical mass versus mutalisks off two bases. Nor did I do anything clever like split my forces or build infestors. I let him do something easy that won him the game.

On the other hand I did really well in preventing him winning with two equally easy strategies right at the start, so providing I can work on my decision-making and take better advantage in future, I should be able to win more games that play out this way.

Thanks for reading.

*****
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
August 04 2011 13:38 GMT
#2
You have an incredibly mature presentation of your learning and experiences. It was refreshing Keep up the good work.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Khazroul
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom206 Posts
August 04 2011 13:57 GMT
#3
Another good write-up. It would be interesting to see the XNC replay, you don't mention if he managed to get any air upgrades, but also to see in what way you "dipped in and out" with your mutas.
It can sometime be detrimental since the VRs will begin shooting earlier and end later than your mutas unless you manage some "stutter stepping" micro on the way out, plus with shield regen you'd need to focus fire the VRs to make good dents in his army each time.

Either way, keep fighting and writing <3
RaLakedaimon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1564 Posts
August 04 2011 13:59 GMT
#4
I could honestly read a whole book written in this style on ladder game/custom game experience, very nicely written. Its amazing but audio/text both are just as good as actual video footage of SC, it seems to just work. Again very nicely written was a fun read.
lolsixtynine
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States600 Posts
August 04 2011 15:14 GMT
#5
For the record, corruptors are the best ATA in the game by gas cost if you can keep the VR count from getting too high (which you need to actively do). Infestors will absolutely crush a VR stack if you have them supported with corruptors.
HackBenjamin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1094 Posts
August 04 2011 15:40 GMT
#6
Good read. I have a friend who abuses vr mothership builds, especially on larger maps vs zerg. A couple of tactics I've seen other zergs use against this are:

Periodic Hydra drops before he reaches a crtical mass of void rays, to keep the count down

Large numbers of infestors. Getting a few fungals off on a big stack of voids helps. Neural the mothership and have some fun

Enough corruptors to take down a mothership quickly, followed up by a big muta ball to handle the voids

A teching protoss is a vulnerable protoss. Scout as much as possible and watch for good timings. It gets harder when he turtles up with cannons, and he probably will due to the excess minerals he will have from a gas dependant build such as this. Try a roach baneling attack to get past that
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 17:00:06
August 04 2011 16:58 GMT
#7
I would be furious at that protoss and I play protoss.
Excellent read, you have a good process for analyzing your games.

If your opponent is actually 1a-ing a VR deathball then a dozen infestors can kill the whole ball with fungal because of clumping. I wouldnt wish that loss on anyone :p
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 39m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft642
StarCraft: Brood War
Larva 567
Zeus 333
BeSt 230
EffOrt 128
Rush 121
Shuttle 99
Sharp 79
Leta 73
Mind 37
Sacsri 31
[ Show more ]
Sexy 27
NaDa 21
Bale 9
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm323
League of Legends
JimRising 701
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King89
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor67
Other Games
summit1g7333
singsing334
Happy179
Sick158
ViBE23
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV43
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH178
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift7271
• Lourlo1449
• Stunt567
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
4h 39m
ByuN vs Percival
Percival vs Rogue
Percival vs Classic
ByuN vs Classic
ByuN vs Rogue
Classic vs Rogue
IPSL
11h 39m
DragOn vs Sziky
Replay Cast
1d
Wardi Open
1d 3h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 8h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
All Star Teams
5 days
INnoVation vs soO
sOs vs Scarlett
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
[ Show More ]
All Star Teams
6 days
MMA vs DongRaeGu
Rogue vs Oliveira
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-10
Big Gabe Cup #3
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Escore Tournament S1: W4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.