• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 00:15
CET 06:15
KST 14:15
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT29Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice6Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza1Weekly Cups (Feb 16-22): MaxPax doubles0Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0258
StarCraft 2
General
Vitality disbanding their sc2-team How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000 WardiTV Winter Championship 2026 Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare
Brood War
General
BSL 22 Map Contest — Submissions OPEN to March 10 battle.net problems Are you ready for ASL 21? Hype VIDEO BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash's ASL S21 & Future Plans Announcement
Tourneys
ASL Season 21 Qualifiers March 7-8 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BWCL Season 64 Announcement [BSL22] Open Qualifier #1 - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
No Man's Sky (PS4 and PC) Path of Exile PC Games Sales Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Mexico's Drug War Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Gaming-Related Deaths
TrAiDoS
ONE GREAT AMERICAN MARINE…
XenOsky
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1475 users

Droning On #4: Sharp Learning Curve

Blogs > Umpteen
Post a Reply
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-05 14:57:23
August 04 2011 13:31 GMT
#1
ZvP on Backwater Gulch

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Zealot rush into turtling on first one and then two bases before trying for the standard zealot/stalker/colossus deathball.
My response: After dealing with the zealots I scouted his expansion and went for three base mutalisk. With the map control that gave me I was able to deny attempts at taking a third, establish six bases mining gas and simply overwhelm his stalker numbers with mutalisks.

Specific Lessons Learned:

I was really pleased with my macro and decision-making in this game. I made a conscious choice to play a long game, taking lots of expansions and denying his, and I never gave him a chance to recover after the initial zealot rush failed.

ZvP on Xel'Naga Caverns

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Attempted cannon rush/proxy (spotted and killed probe, took no damage) into three-gate zealot (scouted his gates, killed zealots with roaches, took no damage) into turtling behind a couple of dozen cannons on two bases, then making void rays and a mothership. Which he then a-moved for the win.

Specific Lessons Learned:

It seems it's not possible to build enough +1 mutalisks off four bases worth of gas to compete with void ray production off two bases worth of gas. That came as something of a surprise. I thought I would be able to keep dipping in, sniping a couple of Voids and backing out before they built charge, but it seems they scale too well for that.

I can only assume infestors are the way to go if the game gets to that point, since everything else I have at my disposal is worse at killing Void Rays than mutalisks are. Unfortunately it's probably going to be ages before I encounter that unit composition again to test it out.

More realistically, I think a strong two-base hydralisk push would have won the game for me at a much earlier stage, since that would have hit when the early advantage I'd gained was at its greatest.

EDIT: After much experimentation in the unit tester, I discovered the following:

1. Corruptors don't win, gas for gas, against Void Rays. They do a little better than mutalisks, but not much. Not for the first time I feel Corruptors, the only absolutely dedicated A-A unit in the game, are a bit short-changed in the range department.

3. Infestors can win the fight very efficiently, but it's tricky and you need a lot of room to retreat. Fungaling the leading void rays doesn't block the ones at the back, so they can come through and attack. A combination of fungals and infested terrans works best, maybe with corruptor/hydra support.

2. Hydras slaughter void rays gas-for-gas. If I had hosed out Hydra off my three/four bases he would have lost very hard indeed. The only caveat is that the food cap prevents Hydra continuing to scale to deal with larger numbers of VRs.

The State of the Brain

The loss on Xel'Naga caverns tested my new-found resolve to the limit. Here was someone who tried to proxy/cannon rush me and failed, tried to zealot rush me and failed, tucked himself away behind cannons while I took the rest of the map, built one type of unit with a mothership cherry on top and just a-moved through me.

Remarkably, I managed to stay calm. The fault was mine, after all, in thinking he wouldn't be able to hit a critical mass versus mutalisks off two bases. Nor did I do anything clever like split my forces or build infestors. I let him do something easy that won him the game.

On the other hand I did really well in preventing him winning with two equally easy strategies right at the start, so providing I can work on my decision-making and take better advantage in future, I should be able to win more games that play out this way.

Thanks for reading.

*****
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
August 04 2011 13:38 GMT
#2
You have an incredibly mature presentation of your learning and experiences. It was refreshing Keep up the good work.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Khazroul
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom206 Posts
August 04 2011 13:57 GMT
#3
Another good write-up. It would be interesting to see the XNC replay, you don't mention if he managed to get any air upgrades, but also to see in what way you "dipped in and out" with your mutas.
It can sometime be detrimental since the VRs will begin shooting earlier and end later than your mutas unless you manage some "stutter stepping" micro on the way out, plus with shield regen you'd need to focus fire the VRs to make good dents in his army each time.

Either way, keep fighting and writing <3
RaLakedaimon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1564 Posts
August 04 2011 13:59 GMT
#4
I could honestly read a whole book written in this style on ladder game/custom game experience, very nicely written. Its amazing but audio/text both are just as good as actual video footage of SC, it seems to just work. Again very nicely written was a fun read.
lolsixtynine
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States600 Posts
August 04 2011 15:14 GMT
#5
For the record, corruptors are the best ATA in the game by gas cost if you can keep the VR count from getting too high (which you need to actively do). Infestors will absolutely crush a VR stack if you have them supported with corruptors.
HackBenjamin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1094 Posts
August 04 2011 15:40 GMT
#6
Good read. I have a friend who abuses vr mothership builds, especially on larger maps vs zerg. A couple of tactics I've seen other zergs use against this are:

Periodic Hydra drops before he reaches a crtical mass of void rays, to keep the count down

Large numbers of infestors. Getting a few fungals off on a big stack of voids helps. Neural the mothership and have some fun

Enough corruptors to take down a mothership quickly, followed up by a big muta ball to handle the voids

A teching protoss is a vulnerable protoss. Scout as much as possible and watch for good timings. It gets harder when he turtles up with cannons, and he probably will due to the excess minerals he will have from a gas dependant build such as this. Try a roach baneling attack to get past that
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 17:00:06
August 04 2011 16:58 GMT
#7
I would be furious at that protoss and I play protoss.
Excellent read, you have a good process for analyzing your games.

If your opponent is actually 1a-ing a VR deathball then a dozen infestors can kill the whole ball with fungal because of clumping. I wouldnt wish that loss on anyone :p
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
LiuLi Cup Grand Finals Playoff
LiquipediaDiscussion
Patches Events
23:00
Open cup capped at 5400 MMR
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft639
RuFF_SC2 213
Nina 156
ProTech122
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 18145
Bisu 7968
Sharp 102
Dewaltoss 55
scan(afreeca) 35
ToSsGirL 20
Icarus 8
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm116
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 678
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox689
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor121
Other Games
summit1g8101
C9.Mang0297
Mew2King64
ViBE58
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Afreeca ASL 2693
UltimateBattle 205
Other Games
BasetradeTV92
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH89
• practicex 20
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 25
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift2074
Other Games
• Scarra1563
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4h 45m
RSL Revival
4h 45m
Classic vs TriGGeR
Cure vs Cham
WardiTV Winter Champion…
6h 45m
Solar vs Clem
Cure vs Bunny
herO vs MaxPax
OSC
7h 15m
BSL
14h 45m
Replay Cast
18h 45m
Replay Cast
1d 3h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 11h
OSC
1d 18h
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 21: Qualifier #1
PiG Sty Festival 7.0
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026
ASL Season 21: Qualifier #2
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
NationLESS Cup
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.