• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:38
CEST 17:38
KST 00:38
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Evil Geniuses - shutting down8ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier3Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League52Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.164
StarCraft 2
General
Evil Geniuses - shutting down How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins Server Blocker
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier WORTEX Challenger Series — Open SC2 LAN in Budapes
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 548 Shining Bright The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train
Brood War
General
Do we even care about balance? Young Players Tournament Announced by SOOP SCHNAIL now supports Remastered BW General Discussion Rollback Netcode in Brood War
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL23] RO24 Group Stage [ASL22] Grand Finals
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
How Much Genes Contribute to…
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7076 users

Droning On #4: Sharp Learning Curve

Blogs > Umpteen
Post a Reply
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-05 14:57:23
August 04 2011 13:31 GMT
#1
ZvP on Backwater Gulch

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Zealot rush into turtling on first one and then two bases before trying for the standard zealot/stalker/colossus deathball.
My response: After dealing with the zealots I scouted his expansion and went for three base mutalisk. With the map control that gave me I was able to deny attempts at taking a third, establish six bases mining gas and simply overwhelm his stalker numbers with mutalisks.

Specific Lessons Learned:

I was really pleased with my macro and decision-making in this game. I made a conscious choice to play a long game, taking lots of expansions and denying his, and I never gave him a chance to recover after the initial zealot rush failed.

ZvP on Xel'Naga Caverns

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Attempted cannon rush/proxy (spotted and killed probe, took no damage) into three-gate zealot (scouted his gates, killed zealots with roaches, took no damage) into turtling behind a couple of dozen cannons on two bases, then making void rays and a mothership. Which he then a-moved for the win.

Specific Lessons Learned:

It seems it's not possible to build enough +1 mutalisks off four bases worth of gas to compete with void ray production off two bases worth of gas. That came as something of a surprise. I thought I would be able to keep dipping in, sniping a couple of Voids and backing out before they built charge, but it seems they scale too well for that.

I can only assume infestors are the way to go if the game gets to that point, since everything else I have at my disposal is worse at killing Void Rays than mutalisks are. Unfortunately it's probably going to be ages before I encounter that unit composition again to test it out.

More realistically, I think a strong two-base hydralisk push would have won the game for me at a much earlier stage, since that would have hit when the early advantage I'd gained was at its greatest.

EDIT: After much experimentation in the unit tester, I discovered the following:

1. Corruptors don't win, gas for gas, against Void Rays. They do a little better than mutalisks, but not much. Not for the first time I feel Corruptors, the only absolutely dedicated A-A unit in the game, are a bit short-changed in the range department.

3. Infestors can win the fight very efficiently, but it's tricky and you need a lot of room to retreat. Fungaling the leading void rays doesn't block the ones at the back, so they can come through and attack. A combination of fungals and infested terrans works best, maybe with corruptor/hydra support.

2. Hydras slaughter void rays gas-for-gas. If I had hosed out Hydra off my three/four bases he would have lost very hard indeed. The only caveat is that the food cap prevents Hydra continuing to scale to deal with larger numbers of VRs.

The State of the Brain

The loss on Xel'Naga caverns tested my new-found resolve to the limit. Here was someone who tried to proxy/cannon rush me and failed, tried to zealot rush me and failed, tucked himself away behind cannons while I took the rest of the map, built one type of unit with a mothership cherry on top and just a-moved through me.

Remarkably, I managed to stay calm. The fault was mine, after all, in thinking he wouldn't be able to hit a critical mass versus mutalisks off two bases. Nor did I do anything clever like split my forces or build infestors. I let him do something easy that won him the game.

On the other hand I did really well in preventing him winning with two equally easy strategies right at the start, so providing I can work on my decision-making and take better advantage in future, I should be able to win more games that play out this way.

Thanks for reading.

*****
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
August 04 2011 13:38 GMT
#2
You have an incredibly mature presentation of your learning and experiences. It was refreshing Keep up the good work.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Khazroul
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom206 Posts
August 04 2011 13:57 GMT
#3
Another good write-up. It would be interesting to see the XNC replay, you don't mention if he managed to get any air upgrades, but also to see in what way you "dipped in and out" with your mutas.
It can sometime be detrimental since the VRs will begin shooting earlier and end later than your mutas unless you manage some "stutter stepping" micro on the way out, plus with shield regen you'd need to focus fire the VRs to make good dents in his army each time.

Either way, keep fighting and writing <3
RaLakedaimon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1564 Posts
August 04 2011 13:59 GMT
#4
I could honestly read a whole book written in this style on ladder game/custom game experience, very nicely written. Its amazing but audio/text both are just as good as actual video footage of SC, it seems to just work. Again very nicely written was a fun read.
lolsixtynine
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States600 Posts
August 04 2011 15:14 GMT
#5
For the record, corruptors are the best ATA in the game by gas cost if you can keep the VR count from getting too high (which you need to actively do). Infestors will absolutely crush a VR stack if you have them supported with corruptors.
HackBenjamin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1094 Posts
August 04 2011 15:40 GMT
#6
Good read. I have a friend who abuses vr mothership builds, especially on larger maps vs zerg. A couple of tactics I've seen other zergs use against this are:

Periodic Hydra drops before he reaches a crtical mass of void rays, to keep the count down

Large numbers of infestors. Getting a few fungals off on a big stack of voids helps. Neural the mothership and have some fun

Enough corruptors to take down a mothership quickly, followed up by a big muta ball to handle the voids

A teching protoss is a vulnerable protoss. Scout as much as possible and watch for good timings. It gets harder when he turtles up with cannons, and he probably will due to the excess minerals he will have from a gas dependant build such as this. Try a roach baneling attack to get past that
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 17:00:06
August 04 2011 16:58 GMT
#7
I would be furious at that protoss and I play protoss.
Excellent read, you have a good process for analyzing your games.

If your opponent is actually 1a-ing a VR deathball then a dozen infestors can kill the whole ball with fungal because of clumping. I wouldnt wish that loss on anyone :p
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 19h 22m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Serral 1674
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 37126
EffOrt 1154
Horang2 770
Soma 763
Larva 587
Stork 384
Rush 384
Light 359
Snow 322
Soulkey 289
[ Show more ]
Leta 282
actioN 250
BeSt 209
firebathero 136
sorry 97
Mind 87
hero 64
Free 55
Hm[arnc] 53
Dewaltoss 52
Hyun 44
Shine 34
Terrorterran 28
Sexy 25
ToSsGirL 23
Bishop 21
Sacsri 20
Aegong 14
Rock 13
HiyA 13
JYJ 11
Dota 2
qojqva3586
syndereN692
Fuzer 33
Counter-Strike
byalli738
x6flipin281
fl0m0
Heroes of the Storm
crisheroes391
Khaldor116
Other Games
Gorgc3539
singsing2097
hiko1071
B2W.Neo968
Beastyqt529
RotterdaM430
ceh9383
DeMusliM252
Hui .168
Liquid`VortiX155
KnowMe86
ToD66
QueenE44
Trikslyr36
Chillindude25
fpsfer 1
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 34
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• ChaeLyn 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2260
League of Legends
• Jankos2126
• TFBlade870
Other Games
• WagamamaTV251
• Shiphtur22
• tFFMrPink 11
Upcoming Events
IntoTheTV X SOOP
19h 22m
Reynor vs Zoun
Neeb vs Rogue
OSC
1d 7h
FEL
2 days
Patches Events
2 days
AI Arena Tournament
3 days
FEL
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
5 days
ByuN vs Lambo
MaxPax vs Bunny
[ Show More ]
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-20
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
IPSL Winter 2026-27
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Acropolis #5 - GSC
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.