• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:03
CEST 19:03
KST 02:03
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview8[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21
Community News
ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo20Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28)12[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June4
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted Is the larve respawn broken? Yamato Cup Series What kind of tool would you be interested in?
Tourneys
Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) GSL CK #4 20-21th June Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery Mutation # 530 One For All Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed
Brood War
General
Fact based Zerg Upgrade Tier List BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ STARCRAFT MOVIE - Last Night at the Command center BW General Discussion Battle cruiser feet vs Carrier fleet
Tourneys
CSLAN 4 is Coming! [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Relatively freeroll strategies Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread [H]Internet/Gaming Cafe Tips and Tricks The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
ICO Development for AI, G…
Joshlittle
How To Predict Tilt in Espor…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5838 users

Droning On #4: Sharp Learning Curve

Blogs > Umpteen
Post a Reply
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-05 14:57:23
August 04 2011 13:31 GMT
#1
ZvP on Backwater Gulch

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Zealot rush into turtling on first one and then two bases before trying for the standard zealot/stalker/colossus deathball.
My response: After dealing with the zealots I scouted his expansion and went for three base mutalisk. With the map control that gave me I was able to deny attempts at taking a third, establish six bases mining gas and simply overwhelm his stalker numbers with mutalisks.

Specific Lessons Learned:

I was really pleased with my macro and decision-making in this game. I made a conscious choice to play a long game, taking lots of expansions and denying his, and I never gave him a chance to recover after the initial zealot rush failed.

ZvP on Xel'Naga Caverns

Me: 11p/18h
Him: Attempted cannon rush/proxy (spotted and killed probe, took no damage) into three-gate zealot (scouted his gates, killed zealots with roaches, took no damage) into turtling behind a couple of dozen cannons on two bases, then making void rays and a mothership. Which he then a-moved for the win.

Specific Lessons Learned:

It seems it's not possible to build enough +1 mutalisks off four bases worth of gas to compete with void ray production off two bases worth of gas. That came as something of a surprise. I thought I would be able to keep dipping in, sniping a couple of Voids and backing out before they built charge, but it seems they scale too well for that.

I can only assume infestors are the way to go if the game gets to that point, since everything else I have at my disposal is worse at killing Void Rays than mutalisks are. Unfortunately it's probably going to be ages before I encounter that unit composition again to test it out.

More realistically, I think a strong two-base hydralisk push would have won the game for me at a much earlier stage, since that would have hit when the early advantage I'd gained was at its greatest.

EDIT: After much experimentation in the unit tester, I discovered the following:

1. Corruptors don't win, gas for gas, against Void Rays. They do a little better than mutalisks, but not much. Not for the first time I feel Corruptors, the only absolutely dedicated A-A unit in the game, are a bit short-changed in the range department.

3. Infestors can win the fight very efficiently, but it's tricky and you need a lot of room to retreat. Fungaling the leading void rays doesn't block the ones at the back, so they can come through and attack. A combination of fungals and infested terrans works best, maybe with corruptor/hydra support.

2. Hydras slaughter void rays gas-for-gas. If I had hosed out Hydra off my three/four bases he would have lost very hard indeed. The only caveat is that the food cap prevents Hydra continuing to scale to deal with larger numbers of VRs.

The State of the Brain

The loss on Xel'Naga caverns tested my new-found resolve to the limit. Here was someone who tried to proxy/cannon rush me and failed, tried to zealot rush me and failed, tucked himself away behind cannons while I took the rest of the map, built one type of unit with a mothership cherry on top and just a-moved through me.

Remarkably, I managed to stay calm. The fault was mine, after all, in thinking he wouldn't be able to hit a critical mass versus mutalisks off two bases. Nor did I do anything clever like split my forces or build infestors. I let him do something easy that won him the game.

On the other hand I did really well in preventing him winning with two equally easy strategies right at the start, so providing I can work on my decision-making and take better advantage in future, I should be able to win more games that play out this way.

Thanks for reading.

*****
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
August 04 2011 13:38 GMT
#2
You have an incredibly mature presentation of your learning and experiences. It was refreshing Keep up the good work.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Khazroul
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom206 Posts
August 04 2011 13:57 GMT
#3
Another good write-up. It would be interesting to see the XNC replay, you don't mention if he managed to get any air upgrades, but also to see in what way you "dipped in and out" with your mutas.
It can sometime be detrimental since the VRs will begin shooting earlier and end later than your mutas unless you manage some "stutter stepping" micro on the way out, plus with shield regen you'd need to focus fire the VRs to make good dents in his army each time.

Either way, keep fighting and writing <3
RaLakedaimon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1564 Posts
August 04 2011 13:59 GMT
#4
I could honestly read a whole book written in this style on ladder game/custom game experience, very nicely written. Its amazing but audio/text both are just as good as actual video footage of SC, it seems to just work. Again very nicely written was a fun read.
lolsixtynine
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States600 Posts
August 04 2011 15:14 GMT
#5
For the record, corruptors are the best ATA in the game by gas cost if you can keep the VR count from getting too high (which you need to actively do). Infestors will absolutely crush a VR stack if you have them supported with corruptors.
HackBenjamin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1094 Posts
August 04 2011 15:40 GMT
#6
Good read. I have a friend who abuses vr mothership builds, especially on larger maps vs zerg. A couple of tactics I've seen other zergs use against this are:

Periodic Hydra drops before he reaches a crtical mass of void rays, to keep the count down

Large numbers of infestors. Getting a few fungals off on a big stack of voids helps. Neural the mothership and have some fun

Enough corruptors to take down a mothership quickly, followed up by a big muta ball to handle the voids

A teching protoss is a vulnerable protoss. Scout as much as possible and watch for good timings. It gets harder when he turtles up with cannons, and he probably will due to the excess minerals he will have from a gas dependant build such as this. Try a roach baneling attack to get past that
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 17:00:06
August 04 2011 16:58 GMT
#7
I would be furious at that protoss and I play protoss.
Excellent read, you have a good process for analyzing your games.

If your opponent is actually 1a-ing a VR deathball then a dozen infestors can kill the whole ball with fungal because of clumping. I wouldnt wish that loss on anyone :p
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
16:00
#57
RotterdaM602
TaKeTV 354
TKL 271
IndyStarCraft 131
SteadfastSC116
BRAT_OK 94
HolyHit8
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 602
ByuN 484
TKL 271
Clem_sc2 233
mouzHeroMarine 210
IndyStarCraft 131
SteadfastSC 116
BRAT_OK 94
trigger 34
RushiSC 21
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 7655
Horang2 1087
Shuttle 818
EffOrt 641
Mini 337
Soulkey 209
Mong 190
Leta 112
Sharp 102
Snow 99
[ Show more ]
Sea.KH 55
hero 52
Movie 32
Terrorterran 27
scan(afreeca) 22
zelot 22
Rock 12
Sacsri 7
Dota 2
qojqva2485
420jenkins245
Counter-Strike
fl0m1994
Sick193
adren_tv53
Heroes of the Storm
MindelVK20
Other Games
singsing1876
FrodaN674
Lowko657
Beastyqt497
ceh9361
PiGStarcraft298
C9.Mang0152
KnowMe87
Trikslyr50
Dewaltoss13
OptimusSC22
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream6018
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis2929
• TFBlade776
Other Games
• WagamamaTV181
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
16h 57m
The PondCast
1d 16h
Douyu Cup 2020
2 days
Oliveira vs Trap
Jieshi vs XY
soO vs FanTaSy
TY vs Coffee
Douyu Cup 2020
3 days
Neeb vs Impact
MacSed vs Cyan
Scarlett vs Kelazhur
INnoVation vs Dear
Douyu Cup 2020
4 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
herO vs Classic
Maru vs Serral
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
4 days
Douyu Cup 2020
5 days
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
5 days
Online Event
5 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-06-19
WardiTV Spring 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 1
SCTL 2026 Spring
Maestros of the Game 2
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026

Upcoming

CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
BCC 2026
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E1
Heroes Pulsing #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.