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On August 03 2011 19:49 KeksX wrote:
Thats right. Because when I see that these master league players have a win streak of 6-7 and it gets broken by me I face "only the shitty players", lol..Thats not my point and if you reread what I wrote you would know that.
Yes, SOMETIMES leagues represent skill. It is rather arbitrary but sometimes it happens. But since there is no clear line between the leagues other then win/loss ratios and some other formulas based around that we can never tell for sure. There will always be good players(by the standard people look at the leagues) in lower leagues and bad players in higher leagues. They might even be the same skill level and both belong to platinum or something like that, still they are both in the leagues they are because of other factors.
And guess what happens to the people who suck? They drop out of the league and get demoted, because better players beat them. That is why good players rise up to the higher leagues and don't stay in the lower leagues, since if they are good, they'll be winning good opponents. This just brings me back to how you're not in masters, if you are consistently beating master players. You're not telling something.
What? I'm saying that I BEAT these people. How can you understand that I'm flaming that I DON'T beat these people? Are you even reading?
I say that I face master league players and they play terribad. I say that other master league players admit that they play terribad. Yet, they are all still in masters.
Why should OP feel bad about himself? There's nothing wrong with being gold as chances are high that he is as good as those master league players. How good that actually is can't really be said until we see replays and actually see him playing.
The only real rant in my posting is that those master league players that always say "I'm masters you're gold you're bad hahahah" don't actually know what they are talking about. If someone said "Okay, showmatch between gold and master league player. Who will win?" I had no idea what to say because it is very likely that the gold player will roflstomp the master league player.
You played against these opponents maybe once or twice. You can't generalize on that alone that they are complete shit and gold level players. They might be winning other matches and playing well on them. Sure it is possible to reach higher leagues only by cheesing, but eventually you'll start playing guys who can easily defend your cheeses, which will make you drop.
tl;dr if masters is full of noobs why aren't you there yet?
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On August 03 2011 20:18 Sotamursu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 19:49 KeksX wrote:
Thats right. Because when I see that these master league players have a win streak of 6-7 and it gets broken by me I face "only the shitty players", lol..Thats not my point and if you reread what I wrote you would know that.
Yes, SOMETIMES leagues represent skill. It is rather arbitrary but sometimes it happens. But since there is no clear line between the leagues other then win/loss ratios and some other formulas based around that we can never tell for sure. There will always be good players(by the standard people look at the leagues) in lower leagues and bad players in higher leagues. They might even be the same skill level and both belong to platinum or something like that, still they are both in the leagues they are because of other factors.
And guess what happens to the people who suck? They drop out of the league and get demoted, because better players beat them. That is why good players rise up to the higher leagues and don't stay in the lower leagues,
I really hope this is true, but I highyl doubt it. Yet we both can't show real evidence here. This is a dead end. Sadly.
tl;dr if masters is full of noobs why aren't you there yet?
Short story, because this is not my blog and we should end this fast:
I sucked for a long long time and was really bad. Terribad. Like literally I was so bad, it wasn't even funny.(yet in top10 diamond, lol)
Now, after a somewhat inactive break, I am better but I don't just blindly mass games so blizzard's system isn't quite sure yet what to think 
MMR is just no actually visualization of skill at all. I can't understand how you can possibly think otherwise.
EDIT:
Let me rephrase my first statement so you don't think I'm just ranting:
If you want to know whether you are good or not, watch your replay. Leagues are not the best indication, if any at all, for your skill.
Does this sound more convincingly for you?
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On August 03 2011 20:25 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 20:18 Sotamursu wrote:On August 03 2011 19:49 KeksX wrote:
Thats right. Because when I see that these master league players have a win streak of 6-7 and it gets broken by me I face "only the shitty players", lol..Thats not my point and if you reread what I wrote you would know that.
Yes, SOMETIMES leagues represent skill. It is rather arbitrary but sometimes it happens. But since there is no clear line between the leagues other then win/loss ratios and some other formulas based around that we can never tell for sure. There will always be good players(by the standard people look at the leagues) in lower leagues and bad players in higher leagues. They might even be the same skill level and both belong to platinum or something like that, still they are both in the leagues they are because of other factors.
And guess what happens to the people who suck? They drop out of the league and get demoted, because better players beat them. That is why good players rise up to the higher leagues and don't stay in the lower leagues, I really hope this is true, but I highyl doubt it. Yet we both can't show real evidence here. This is a dead end. Sadly. Short story, because this is not my blog and we should end this fast: I sucked for a long long time and was really bad. Terribad. Like literally I was so bad, it wasn't even funny.(yet in top10 diamond, lol) Now, after a somewhat inactive break, I am better but I don't just blindly mass games so blizzard's system isn't quite sure yet what to think MMR is just no actually visualization of skill at all. I can't understand how you can possibly think otherwise. EDIT: Let me rephrase my first statement so you don't think I'm just ranting: If you want to know whether you are good or not, watch your replay. Leagues are not the best indication, if any at all, for your skill. Does this sound more convincingly for you?
Leagues are like APM, high apm doesn't automatically make you good, but if you play with an apm of 30 you are shit and that's a guarantee. Same goes for leagues, you are bad if you play at the lower leagues, because if you were good you wouldn't be there.
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I think you should relax a bit and have fun. Honestly, I think it all comes down to experience from RTS games. I was D+ in SC:BW, but when I started playing SC2 I was instantly put in the highest league. I really think it's because I used to play a lot of WC3, and that my skills kinda "transferred over". I did play a bunch of ladder games in WC3, but more towards the end I just played a lot of customs games that I thought were fun. My point being that you don't necessarily have to play ladder games to get good. If you just play a lot and develop your mechanics in some way, shape, or form, you'll get a lot better.
For example, if you play a lot of DotA/HoN/LoL, try focusing on your map awareness by being aware of your surroundings and constantly checking your minimap. Force yourself to do it in every game you play, and BINGO. You just got better at checking the minimap. You know how those pro players spot those dropships for only the briefest of seconds and manage to muster a defense just in time? Now you can do it to.
It's all about playing. It doesn't necessarily have to be SC2. Just play something related to it and it will do wonders for you. Above all else, like what you are doing.
I don't mean to contradict what Heyoka was saying, because getting Masters League was really easy for me and I didn't really think twice about it. I honestly think it's because I've just played an insane amount of WC3 games, along with a modest amount of SC:BW games (MBS and Rally Workers really helped me out from my WC3 days). I do work really hard to improve my skills though, I won't lie about that. It's all about playing games.
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Do you enjoy the game? If so, its worth playing.
I've found that when I can't stomach the amount of effort it is taking to advance playing 2v2 helps me enjoy the game again.
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My friends hold SC2 up on some sort of pedestal and think it is the holy grail of games. Even so they don't play it (or if they do they are in bronze league). So when I tell them I'm in the top 10% of sc2 players in the world they thing I am a really freaking good player and they don't understand why I don't compete in tournaments etc. etc.
Did you know that platinum league is like the top 10-15% of players in the world? I lol'd when i i found out.
Also because you have an SEA account (i'm assuming because you're from NZ) i know an easy way to make yourself feel better at sc2. Get on your NA or SEA (whichever one you care less about) and make it your smurf account and go beat newbies. It makes me feel better after a hard day of work.
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On August 03 2011 17:06 HavokTheorem wrote:It seems others get to master with no effort. Am I just a terrible gamer? I don't know. 
Master league players are the top two percent of all players. The vast majority of the ones who say it was easy to get there have a lot of RTS experience, and those very few who don't are exceptionally good at this type of game.
What you have to realize is that everyone in all leagues is getting better. If you're getting promoted over time it means you're improving more than the people around you. This isn't easy -- in fact it requires focus to make steady progress beyond what people get just by playing the game a lot.
Since the start of Beta, my leagues have gone copper -> bronze -> silver -> gold -> silver -> bronze -> silver -> gold -> platinum and I'm still clawing my way up. My first 40 games were losses. All of them. I am no great player now, but I certainly have improved along the way.
Of course it's slow, but at this point you're being compared not just against gamers at large, but against the smaller population who still care about Starcraft 2 a year after release.
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On August 03 2011 19:18 KeksX wrote:
There are so many master league players that constantly lose to plat/diamonds and would even lose to bronze players, and there are many on the forums that openly admit it.
A plat or a diamond player may well take a game off a master league player here or there. Generally, though, you could play a hundred games between a bronze player and a master league player and the bronze player would lose all of them.
Yes, there really is that wide a range of skill in Starcraft 2.
MMR is just no actually visualization of skill at all. I can't understand how you can possibly think otherwise.
OK, you were top Diamond and you saw your own mistakes. You clearly have no clue how poor the play you'd see at the lower levels (including mine) is in comparison.
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On August 03 2011 21:15 JoFritzMD wrote:
Did you know that platinum league is like the top 10-15% of players in the world? I lol'd when i i found out.
Platinum and up are the top 40% of active players. Platinum is only 10-15% when you count all the players who have dropped out of the game, or were rated in Season 1 when the Bronze league contained a disproportionate number of players. This has since been fixed.
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You're playing for the wrong reason. You'll never be pro. Maybe if you stick around and starcraft 3 comes around, you'll have enough experience...
Just play the game for enjoyment and to have fun. The leagues just show you how far you've progressed -- not that you are bad and need to try higher to get in an arbitrarily higher league. Play because you want to. If you no longer want to play sc for the reasons you list, move on.
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On August 03 2011 19:49 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 19:43 Sotamursu wrote:On August 03 2011 19:18 KeksX wrote:On August 03 2011 19:08 Ruyguy wrote:On August 03 2011 17:28 KeksX wrote:On August 03 2011 17:06 HavokTheorem wrote:I wonder if I will get better with more practice. It seems others get to master with no effort. Am I just a terrible gamer? I don't know. Most people are masters because of these things: 1) They started playing a long time ago. Their MMR is way more consistent and they always get the same players of the same level, which are also masters. They don't suddenly drop to diamond/platinum opponents and then lose MMR hardcore 2) They play really, really often. They mass 100 games/3 days and eventually their MMR will get better and better, due to blizzard's system. 3) They have luck by getting bad opponents. Trust me, being masters means nothing. I am in Diamond now but consider myself way over the average master's niveau. Why? Most master league players I face(and ironically I face master's players all the time lol) are so terribad... With 36 supply after 7 minutes, no scouting at all and no mechanics whatsoever. It's not even funny. I apply pressure on them with some units to get myself an expansion and they call me an "all inning cheeser" because they have nothing. Typical 15~18 minutes, 4 bases, maxed army and full tech rush. Such all inning bad play, ugh -_-' So don't let yourself fool by people that say "i'm masters, you're gold, therefore i'm better". Thats not true. However, don't take this as an offense, but you are nothing special. We all want to be among the best and it is good that we want that, otherwise we wouldn't do j**** sh****. But just leaving and saying "I go play WoW because there people are bad so I can feel special there" is not the right way to do it. Maybe you don't practice enough, maybe you don't practice efficient enough, maybe you are just not concentrated enough or don't see everything in your replays... Approach the game from a different angle. Kick out all the buildorder crap, kick out all the day9 daily stuff you can't comprehend. Just focus on playing fast and precisely, reacting good and becoming better and reflect your play everytime. Eventually, this will make you better and bring you to at least "diamond standard". You already have what it takes. Use it. This is more of a rant on masters players in general than regarding the OP. If I am masters and you are gold, I consider myself better 100% of the time lol. Why? Can you certainly, for 100%, say that you will beat the OP when you face him? (Considering you are masters.). I have reason to doubt that you would. There are so many master league players that constantly lose to plat/diamonds and would even lose to bronze players, and there are many on the forums that openly admit it. It is no rant as I don't care about how good other players are and I don't care which league I'm in either, it's just the fact that OPs focus on the leagues is not justified as leagues are no intentions of skill whatsoever. Just because you are masters doesn't mean you are good. And just because you are gold doesn't mean that you are worse than master league players. The ladder leagues are no real visualizations of skill. I think you're taking that a bit too far. Just because you beat some master league players who had a 20 loss streak doesn't suddenly make it the shittiest division that loses to bronze players. Thats right. Because when I see that these master league players have a win streak of 6-7 and it gets broken by me I face "only the shitty players", lol..Thats not my point and if you reread what I wrote you would know that. Yes, SOMETIMES leagues represent skill. It is rather arbitrary but sometimes it happens. But since there is no clear line between the leagues other then win/loss ratios and some other formulas based around that we can never tell for sure. There will always be good players(by the standard people look at the leagues) in lower leagues and bad players in higher leagues. They might even be the same skill level and both belong to platinum or something like that, still they are both in the leagues they are because of other factors. Show nested quote +
You almost sound like those people who make a thread about all the cheese and all-ins on the ladder and go "Oh I would be grandmasters, if it wasn't for all the noobs who cheese on the ladder. They just don't allow me to show my true skill."
What? I'm saying that I BEAT these people. How can you understand that I'm flaming that I DON'T beat these people? Are you even reading? I say that I face master league players and they play terribad. I say that other master league players admit that they play terribad. Yet, they are all still in masters. Why should OP feel bad about himself? There's nothing wrong with being gold as chances are high that he is as good as those master league players. How good that actually is can't really be said until we see replays and actually see him playing. The only real rant in my posting is that those master league players that always say "I'm masters you're gold you're bad hahahah" don't actually know what they are talking about. If someone said "Okay, showmatch between gold and master league player. Who will win?" I had no idea what to say because it is very likely that the gold player will roflstomp the master league player. I can only repeat that the OP shouldn't care the slightest about his league. Just keep practicing if you feel like you want to. EDIT(Also kinda TL;DR) To the post below me: No, the leagues are a measure of win and lose ratios, not skill.
Seriously, don't put these ideas in people's heads. The idea that a Gold player has a good chance of "roflstomping" Masters level players is delusional. If you use up all your bonus pool and play straight up games, there's obviously flaws in your gameplay that keep you from breaking into platinum, diamond and masters. Telling yourself that you belong in higher leagues is highly detrimental to your morale, motivation and the objectivity you need to iron the flaws out of your game.
Obviously there might be people in Gold that have better overall macro than some Masters players because the latter only 4-gate rushes. Does that mean he's a better player though and belongs in Masters? Nope.
The 4-gate rusher takes advantage of the fact that he doesn't need good macro if he forces a short micro heavy game. He uses his skill set to punish players that have better macro, but aren't skilled enough to supplement that with early game scouting, adaptation and micro.
In the end your goal is to win the game, if you lose half of your matches before the 7 minute mark there's obvious reasons that this is happening. You can cry about having better mechanics, APM and macro, but if he doesn't let you get to a point where those skills matter, he has beaten you on a strategic level.
In the end "skill" is an accumulation of all things that aid you in winning games, micro, macro, scouting, mechanics, strategy, crisis management. You can't say macro is more valuable than micro , crisis management and scouting when you lose to rushes all the time. Certain skills are rewarded more at certain levels, yes, that's how the game works.
The only thing you might say as a Gold level player that plays straight-up macro is that your style will scale better in the long run. Cheesers will eventually hit a wall where their cheese gets scouted and countered consistently, leaving them at the mercy of players far more developed in macro and lategame management. As straight up player though, you will improve all around since you're not focusing on one small section of the game, eventually bypassing the 4-gate rusher because you can scout his early game antics, survive with better economy and defeat him in the long run.
@OP:
A couple of things to ask yourself:
Do you really want to become the best? Or do you wish you were born to effortlessly become the best?
There's a difference between wanting something and having the willpower to reach for it. They might show you these kid geniuses on TV, but realistically, 99.99% of people that are the best at anything devote their entire lives to get to that point. No-one just casually plays a game and becomes the best, what worth would that even have?
The reason that SC2 is so competetive is because it's a hard game, you have to choose to become really good and make plans for it to happen. It is backed with 10 years of BW knowledge and development, the most competetive and highly skilled RTS to date. SC2's scene exists mostly of players with a wealth of experience from other competetive games, people that all want to make a splash now eSports is starting to boom.
Don't expect yourself to bridge this disparity in experience so quickly, it is both unrealistic towards yourself and ignorant of the skills players at the highest levels possess. Set goals for yourself and acknowledge the progress you're making, be happy that you can still become so much better.
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EPT
