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Does anybody else find the ladder absolutely fucking infuriating????? Seriously man, I know for a fact I have ten times the macro of my gold divison ( I was in diamond and when I went on holiday my buddy played alot and I got demoted to gold T_T ) and every single motherfucking game they throw at me some unorthadox strategy/cheese which always beats me. Like, the last 3 games this has happened..
Game number 1, Typhon Peaks V Protoss:
Feeling pretty gold as TvP is my best matchup. Start up the game and start up my music playlist and do a 2 rax expo.
Ah, so calming, just quitely producing my marines and marauders and getting the infantry upgrades.. and then suddenly, out of nowhere 3 voidrays and a bunch of gateway units pop onto my doorsteps and roflstomp me, and in the blink of an eye im dead.
Turns out, he had a proxy stargate, and unless he has a secret that everybody else doesnt have, it is now possible to produce off of 4 gates and 1 stargate on 1 base. Every game you learn something new eh?
Game Number 2: Xel naga caverns V Protoss
TvP yet again. Feeling a tad nervous, but whatever your only playing gold players, right? Start the game up and I plan to do the good old 3 rax all infanty upgrades attack and get the game over with. Game starts as normal, keep building scvs, get supply capped for like 7 miliseconds, and scout.
Suscpisously, at the 4 minute mark the only thing he has in his base is 1 gateway. I immedietly scout for a proxy stargate at the usual spot it hides out, and to my relief I do not find one. Now, at this point I make an assumption which sounds very resonable but I obviously was wrong. I figure that if he did got proxy gate it would of hit by now, so I presume the guy im playing is just terrible and I get my 45 supply, and all of my marines and marauders are packing their bags for the trip to the protoss's base.
Suddenly, about 30 zealots appear and he destroys my 3 rax, and goes over and nukes my mineral line. GGGGG I say while furiously smashing my fist off my desk. I watch the replay and somehow he managed to beat a 3 rax with 2 proxy gates or something. I guess its just the weather.
Game Number 3: Backwater Gulch v Terran:
I feel kinda meh about my tvt, but since its gold I normally just a-move through any players who dont cheese ( very very few ) with a superior tank count. So the game starts and I have a brain fart and when im planning a fast expo I subconsiously built a refinery, so my " fast expo " is kind of not so fast, and I also have a small army.
Doesnt really make a difference as the guy is going 2 port banshee so there was no pressure early on. I scan him when cloak just starts researching and I let out a sigh of relief and build a engi bay and 2 turrets at each mineral line because you know, I dont wanna lose any of those workers.
So, I go for my standard marine tank and vikings and go to the guys natural. I see a CC floating to it at 16 minutes into the game and my first words are " shit " So I waddle back to my base as all of my production facilitys are getting curb stomped by about 10 banshees with viking support, but the marines packed on alot of pounds so by the time I got there he had scooted himself out, and I was left with 1 barracks.
I attempt to rebuild, but it was like it was TvZ but instead of there being mutas containing me, it was a flock of angry banshees that stung me every time I attempted to expand. So, as the guy was role playing as a zerg he mass expanded and I stayed on my 2 bases twiddling my thumbs. What happens now is obvious, and he just comes and fucking kills me with his massive air force while im franticaly at my main trying to produce 1 thor to deal with about 40 banshees...
Moral of the story : Dont play ladder when your in gold league
 
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Maybe the skill of starcraft 2 players has just gotten so good that you're no longer diamond level. Cheese is cheese, and it only gets better at higher levels.
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....
Apparently you're playing tosses who can land nukes too...
GG.
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It can be annoying though, especially if you focus on practicing standard play. You've gotta devote an equal amount of time to handling earlygame nonsense if you want to ladder.
Still fair losses though, so go fix your errors!
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the only key to being good is to be safe against every build.. You can't expect to sit in your base for no rush 20 minutes before an attack comes.
best counter to "cheese" = scout better. If you learned to scout, you would see whats happening and its easy to stop, especially as terran. Get a bunker or two or three if you scout nothing in his base
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On July 03 2011 08:17 mizU wrote:
....
Apparently you're playing tosses who can land nukes too...
GG.
By nuke I meant his zealots ran in and cut up my mineral line. Thanks for the contribution.
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I wouldn't consider it cheese, I'd call it taking advantage of lower league players' lack of game sense
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Yes ladder can be an incessant cheese grind. I would suggest finding some practice partners or friends and playing customs with them whenever it gets bad. It'll keep you sane.
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I think a lot of people don't seem to understand the concept of standard play...
Standard play is standard because it can hold off 95% of cheese when you're good enough/scouting.
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Last 4 months: "When it's the summer I'm gonna do some hardcore laddering; I want to get better"
Last 5 days: "Does anyone actually want to play Starcraft? Why the fuck won't anyone actually play me? And why does cheese set people back more in theory than in practice? Fuck this game, I'm gonna go back to RPGs, I miss Dragon Age and Mass Effect."
I know purists will mock me, but I don't consider it a strategy game if I lose because I scouted them last and can't see what they're doing and proceed to lose to unskilled cheesers (Yes they are unskilled, if you have skill and knowledge, you would want the game to last so you could outmacro me and make better decisions). So glad I practice my macro so much and memorize build orders, maybe it will help me in ONE game. You beat me at the 25 minute mark, gg wp, I had fun.
Maybe HOTS will make cheese suck, and it'll actually be fun.
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Karma for account sharing imo.
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Part of being a solid player is being able to sniff out and react to plays outside of the book. Rather than trying to use the ladder to improve your straight up 1v1 macro games, look at it as a way to figure out the holes in your play and fix them. Random ass builds that work once against you are less likely to work again. I like facing dumb builds on ladder, because it improves my all around game and allows me to prevent losing to them in important matches.
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Honestly if you're losing to cheese and unorthodox play it's just a matter of poor scouting. Scouting is what any cheese boils down to; know wats up and you'll easily beat it. Your scouting is obviously very bad, and it would probably be more beneficial for you if you watched the replays you lost and see how you could have improved your scouting, rather than get angry after every loss which will achieve absolutely nothing but discourage you from laddering.
For example, game 3:
After you saw his first tech lab, you didn't scout him again until 16 minutes into the game? You had no idea what his army composition looked like 16 minutes into a game? You didn't realize he hadn't taken his natural?
Literally all you had to do to win that game was have 1 marine by his natural. Seeing no expo for so long, you would have known moving out was a bad idea, especially if you're already up a base. When you have that kind of an economic lead you could simply sit back at home and build on your advantage instead of getting caught flat footed. The absence of a natural expo that far into a game would probably also have alerted you to scan his base
Anyway my point is you're making mistakes that are fairly easy to fix as long as you're aware of them. It has nothing to do with the game being broken or favoring rush strats too much (at least not at gold where all the rushes are retarded anyway), you just made a fundemental mistake and got punished for it.
Moral of the story should be "watching my own replays is more beneficial than tilting"
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Oh god, if you think you are so much better than people just play a safe build that'll put you slightly behind in economy compared to normal play. It isn't hard, and it makes little difference if the game goes on past early game, as long as you have superior macro.
A lot of the things you are whining about aren't even cheese. They are all-ins, so start scouting and stop whining. You scout one spot and assume that everything is ok? Ugh, when someone looks fishy it probably is.
Honestly, it just sounds as though you are facing superior players. The last guy especially, since he just hit you at a very appropriate time. It's like muta harass a la SC1 ZvT, you prevent him from moving out by simply threatening him with your more mobile force.
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so I presume the guy im playing is just terrible
^^, I've made this mistake one to many times. Always KNOW that your opponent is at least on your level, that way you will instantly recognize when something fishy is up and you won't be doing that mistake again 
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United Arab Emirates660 Posts
I think today was national cheese day, I got cheesed like never before! so many 6 pool + pull drones! but its a good thing for practice and most of them are terrible ^_^, keep practicing and get better!
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These blogs all look the same to me. Losing is part of the game. Even if you were in GM, you would drop games. If you can't beat these people at all, then you are lucky to even be in gold league. In reality, if you just relax and don't get upset that you aren't perfect you might have a good time playing SC. It doesn't have anything to do with ladder. If you were playing pickup games on 1999 bnet against random people you'd be just as dissatisfied with them. The problem is clearly on your end. You aren't playing SC, you are playing some fantasy game inside your own mind.
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You probably never played BW on Iccup or brain or fish then.
Cheese every day, all day.
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On July 03 2011 09:22 Kaal wrote:
You probably never played BW on Iccup or brain or fish then.
Cheese every day, all day.
At least then you had the satisfaction of knowing you got 2gated into the dust by some Arank Korean on his way back up.
Oh Singapore timezones, you are the best iCCup timezones.
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If you get beat ALL the time by cheese even with the amount of theoretical practice/experience against cheese that you should have (since you ALWAYS get cheesed), then you're just a terrible player with no hope.
I heard Hello Kitty Online is pretty fun.
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You seem super hardcore elitist for someone who's in gold league.
i don't understand
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On July 03 2011 10:43 arb wrote:
You seem super hardcore elitist for someone who's in gold league.
i don't understand
what am I supposed to say to this?
o_o
also, this blog was kind of made in jest in a way but it seems nobody has caught on. sucks.
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My friend was in diamond during beta.
7-9 months ago when I got Starcraft, he was calling me noob for being in Bronze. He then later quit Starcraft for shooting games and console games.
2 months ago, he came over. I played Starcraft as a diamond player. I won all my games on ladder (when he was watching.) I let him play a custom game. His strategy was 3 supply depots to wall off, barracks, double gas, mass supply depots at choke and mass siege tanks. Apparently that worked at diamond back then (?) He was also floating 2.5k minerals.
Not saying that you are, but I think you're outdated on the game and I think that players have evolved since you last played, which is why you're losing a lot.
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losing to bad players make you bad. End of story. Cheeses are super predictable when scouted, and people who execute cheese usually do it even when they know they're scouted. They tend to rely on the other player just being bad, and that looks like that's what happened. There are only so many cheeses, (I don't consider the tvt a cheese, you just played horribly) so you should know the timings and react accordingly. Playing as T lets you shut down almost any P cheese with a bunker or 2.
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Sounds to me like your not a diamond league caliber player anymore. GL in the future.
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On July 03 2011 14:50 Cyclone999 wrote:
My friend was in diamond during beta.
7-9 months ago when I got Starcraft, he was calling me noob for being in Bronze. He then later quit Starcraft for shooting games and console games.
2 months ago, he came over. I played Starcraft as a diamond player. I won all my games on ladder (when he was watching.) I let him play a custom game. His strategy was 3 supply depots to wall off, barracks, double gas, mass supply depots at choke and mass siege tanks. Apparently that worked at diamond back then (?) He was also floating 2.5k minerals.
Not saying that you are, but I think you're outdated on the game and I think that players have evolved since you last played, which is why you're losing a lot.
this^
I took a 3month break after playing for sixmonths counting beta, Diamond at the time was the highest, and I was high plat. I came back at the beginning of season 2, I was Plat and I thought wow they added another league, I thought to myself diamond here I come. 0-14 before I stopped and did research on the builds etc. I got demoted to gold!!! however I have now worked my way up the ranks and am now high diamond. I feel that I was way better then I ever was in season 1 by a mile, people in general got alot better and will continue in each season.
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Cheese = free wins for the defender...plus it's tasty. But seriously, I held off a 4rax proxy stargate without even knowing that strategy existed with just a solid 2rax opening, just play solid and safe and scout better
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Isn't Gold league fun? I "auditioned" into platinum back in October, but due to grad school didn't play more than 100 games until two weeks ago. Gold players actually seemed a lot better 6 months ago than they are right now, but they're still just as cheesy! In my last 10 games 7 have been against cheese. My macro isn't superb, but the D+ carryover from playing zerg in BW was a huge help, so if we get passed 10 minutes I'm most certainly going to win. But then comes the cheese...
Sometimes the cheese is easy to fend off, like a poorly executed 6 gate, or their big all-in attack is late and I slipped in a good counter thanks to a bad wall-in. And then there are the ridiculous proxies, zvz 8 pool+2 spines, canon rushes, void ray rushes, terrans who only know how to make banshees and do marine drops, and my personal favorite, the 5 gate chargelot rush! I guess the difference between you and me are the way we look at it. I don't mind the cheese because most the times I scout it and I'm getting better reaction timings down. Honestly, I think that polish is the only thing separating a gold player from being a diamond player. Just think of it this way - when you're diamond again you'll have a lot more experience under your belt!
Here's a fun little example from three days ago. ZvZ @ xel naga. I play a roach-centric style. Upon scouting, I found that my opponent had walled himself in with a hatchery, roach warren, two spine crawlers and FOUR queens. Knowing this is a huge investment, I built up a roach army to go kill him. It failed, I was barely ahead, and I took a few extra bases. I got the best of each encounter, but then I got greedy and destroyed his natural at the expense of my army. They took out a saturated extra base, I fell behind, and 15 minutes later lost to ultras. Instead of saying "Holy crap, that guy was terrible!" I thought "Maybe I should expand while he's making a ridiculous wall because 15 roaches couldn't kill it"
I have a bit of a theory on cheesers and the SC2 ladder. First of all, we have the people who think up their own strategies and the people who use those at higher levels as a model. Gold is an especially great place for those with personal builds to get stuck since stolen pro strategies are superior to them (that and their mechanics are probably terrible). This is where the crazy nonstandard play comes from. If they worked their way up from Bronze then they are very polished in the bizarre play-style. Nevertheless, there are great tools to use against them. I forgot which old BW commentator said it (I think it was Cholera, but not sure) - the best defense against nonstandard play is standard play. SC2 doesn't really have a reliable standard, but it's best to use tried-and-true strategies, even when your opponent is being weird.
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I'm also going to comment on your replay analysis:
Game 1 - Look for indicators of a proxy (i.e., nothing in their base). Gold players aren't great, but they're not so bad that they have NOTHING when they should have something. Crazy one-base play is pretty common with void rays, banshees, and banelings busts appearing as "fan favorites". Proxy locations can literally be anywhere on the map, but in my experience it's usually limited to general, easy-to-check locations.
Game 2 - Same as Game 1, more or less
Game 3 - Isn't it annoying when you know you've lost, but the other player is so bad they can't end the game? I believe this is because they have a great harass, but the rest of their game sucks. Even better are the players (especially terrans) who have lost, but try and see how long they can stay in and turtle like there's no tomorrow. Instead of twiddling your thumbs it may be better to GG and review the replay.
Overall, it seems like you're not practicing enough/don't know how to practice, your strategies are only flushed out against a certain kind of opponent (i.e. you're great at macro games, but you play so many you don't know how to deal with strategies intended to kill you fast), or you're taking your rank WAY too seriously.
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Just relax, cheese yourself occasionally, and play well.
Typically, cheese forces an early game battle of micro and decision making, with very little macro involved. Stay cool and you'll probably win, either as the cheeser or cheese'ee.
Unless you know, there cheese is incredibly genius or something.
Also, just hitting people are weird timings can feel really frustrating for the player getting hit. You feel like you're safe, so you decide to focus on economy instead of units, then suddenly, they never took that natural, and they never built more than 24 workers, so they have a giant army knocking on your door. I mean, I got raped a lot of time by zergling allins at a late-ish point in the game, there's so many units, and you just don't see it coming. It happens. Just learn to read your opponent better.
When people say "scout" better, it means a lot, but it's more than just sending workers or dropping good scans. Poking in (as a toss, which I play) with two zealots and a stalker early on is not only aggressive, but also great scouting. How many units do they have? Did they need to pull workers? Is a bunker going up? etc etc
Don't forget that an aggressive play that sacrifices a bit of economy might not completely END the player if it fails. As long as it does enough damage, it pays off so the aggressive player can equalize economy, and then focus on the rest of the game.
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Cheese is strategy, if you fail to cheese than you fail to a strategy, wich means you weren't in fact better than your opponent.
If your opponent throws random stuff at your and you still lose despite the sloppy BO, then you just need to improve.
Plat and below is all about "tricks" that can win the game, as Day9 coined it.
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On July 03 2011 08:35 Darclite wrote:
I know purists will mock me, but I don't consider it a strategy game if I lose because I scouted them last and can't see what they're doing and proceed to lose to unskilled cheesers.
I'm not going to mock ya lol 
1) cheese yourself
2) raise your skill level, and teach yourself how to correctly deal with cheese
3) don't let it frustrate you, just remember it's a game and it should be played for fun
GL
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It happens, Gold league is pretty unpredictable people do things that aren't standard, things that if you heard them you'd laugh at how stupid they are and you'd know how to perfectly counter it but when it comes at you in practice you freeze up.
None the less against the banshees you can always build a second turret in each mineral line and halt building it at 95%. If the banshees come you send an SCV to finish it off if it doesn't come but you don't feel safe you keep it around if you finally feel safe you cancel it.
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On July 03 2011 08:35 Darclite wrote:
I know purists will mock me, but I don't consider it a strategy game if I lose because I scouted them last and can't see what they're doing and proceed to lose to unskilled cheesers.
Cheese and unorthodox play are part of the game. Scouting adapting, and trying to catch your opponent off guard are all part of a strategy game too. You think every game needs to contain the same cookiecutter strategies for you to acknowledge someone beat you?
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On July 03 2011 09:44 Ravencruiser wrote:
If you get beat ALL the time by cheese even with the amount of theoretical practice/experience against cheese that you should have (since you ALWAYS get cheesed), then you're just a terrible player with no hope.
I heard Hello Kitty Online is pretty fun.
He may get frustrated at being owned by a level 1 starfish and having to sit down because he lost all his energy trying to beat it into submission.
HKO is an awesome game don't knock it =(
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EPT
