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Hey guys.
Just looking for some advice... I'm not thinking that one person's advice over the internet will determine my choices but I know that there are people on TL that have some real life experience and any stories will help me.
I've booked an appointment with my counselor but until the meeting, I have some thinking to do...
Basically I'm entering my 5th year of university to finish my undergrad.. (I was only a part timer first year due to financial reasons)
And I never had any thought of doing any post secondary education so I honestly never put effort into my courses and my GPA is sitting at around a 2.3 (For letter grades, it's around a C)
I know different law schools have different requirements but I'm from Ontario, Canada and I was looking at the previous years admissions and the minimum for each law school that students had was an A- letter grade.
I know I can achieve that but I just regret not putting effort into my work early on in my undergrad.
Is it too late for me now and should I look for an alternative profession..? I really do like the idea of law school because even if I don't become a lawyer afterwards, its degree is really versatile.
>,<
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Braavos36379 Posts
My advice for you after reading all information: you shouldn't go to law school unless it'd cost you very, very little.
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I honestly don't know how it would be possible for you to get into law school. Mathematically, you won't be able to increase your GPA to a competitive level. You'd have to get 175 or something on your LSAT. While attainable, you'd have to be dedicated.
First, you should look into law and see if it's something you really want to do. Secondly, take a look at entrance requirements and see if it's feasible.
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mathematically, you will never achieve a competitive gpa since your at a 2.3 in your final year. If law school was so easy that people with 2.3 can get in, then wouldnt everyone be in it? Post grad schools reward the people who actually worked from the first year onwards. IMO you should really start over IF you REALLY want to do law. That way you have a chance of getting in a good law school instead of a mediocre one with 2.3-3.0 gpa.
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Yea..
Thanks for the replies fellas. You guys just basically said everything I was thinking in my head.
It just sucks. I'm happy with my life right now, no doubt. So I can't regret a lot of choices I made but I just wish I put more seriousness into my education from year one til now in university.
Blerg..
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You'd need to take quite a few more years of school to get your GPA up there and it's only getting harder every year. In Ontario if I'm not mistaken your options are: Ottawa, Carleton, York, Queens, Toronto. You'll almost certainly get denied to those schools without an A and a 157+ LSAT (York, Queens and Toronto are even more difficult). It's never too late to do a degree in what you like, but getting from a C to an A will take a huge amount of work even with CGPA getting taken into consideration. I'm applying to University of Manitoba with a 3.97 GPA and I don't feel competitive at all (LSAT wasn't what I wanted it to be).
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A lot of people don't go to law school directly after undergrad but wait a couple years. Maybe try getting some experience first and a good LSAT to offset your GPA?
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Listen to Hot_Bid, he went to a T14 and I know a lot at the T14 that are still having a hard time looking for work.
I go to a top 25 law school and paid full sticker and a lot of my friends are unemployed. The fact of the matter is the legal market is oversaturated with lawyers, all of them with a ton of debt (I have over 150K), and law school's have been lying about their employment stats to entice applicants. Unless you have a job lined up afterwards or can get into a top institution, with a C average you will need to get above a 170 for sure, I would say its not worth it. I know its glamorous to think lawyers make big bucks, but the odds are severely stacked against you.
I would recommend doing something your passionate, rather than going for lawyer for status or because you will make bank or because you need to something to do after college. Instead, get a PhD or masters or join the workforce. You can always go back to law school later in life. Sorry if that's not the answer you were looking for, but its just my opinion, best of luck!
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You really need to ask yourself if you could handle the exponentially increased rigors of law school if you're barely scraping by college. I had a friend get around 3.7 GPA in college but is now barely passing her classes in law school. If I were you I would rather enroll in a masters program to prove not only to the admission committee but to myself that I've changed my ways. Contrary to popular belief, getting into a law school is actually really easy... as long as we're talking about a no name school in the United States. So law school isn't too off of a reach for you, although you should IMO raise that GPA up with a masters course and you definitely want to do well on the LSAT.
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I wonder about my post-university education too. Like... what can I do with my sociology degree and minor in say... writing or political science?
Anything beyond university is unknown to me.
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One more thing, go to abovethelaw.com and read some of the articles on the website about law schools. Also for humor you should read this blog (about crappy law schools and how they take you for a ride).
Also, about the masters thing, I don't think it will make much of a difference to law schools, whether or not you actually get a masters degree. Law schools mainly care about rank, and according to USNWR all that gets scored is GPA and LSAT not post-graduate GPA. On the other hand, taking a masters courses or community college classes for easy A's while in undergrad will boost your GPA and improve your odds at getting into a better law school.
Finally, studying for the California bar exam sucks. Anyone else here studying for the bar?
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My advice is contingent upon your age and if you truly embrace the field of law, or are just looking for a prestigious degree, that's not only difficult to come by, but is a highly competitive field.
Someday, you're going to be 40 and you don't want to look back in regret questioning, "Why didn't I pursue my dream?" You're already crying over spilt milk. You made mistakes - pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over again; however, take a breather first, then afterwards make an educated decision.
Nothing you desire is impossible. Conceive it! Believe it! Achieve it!
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Lots of good advice here. From what I understand, many law schools technically leave the door open to admit people whose backgrounds might not otherwise qualify for admission on the basis of grades, but that would only happen in cases where you have some truly exceptional situation.
As an example, a relative of mine whose college performance was relatively unexceptional happened to work in the Columbia University school of law as an administrative assistant for thirteen years. One of the professors for whom she worked recommended that she take the LSAT and apply to the program, and her score was extremely high, so she ended up getting her law degree from Columbia. She was in her 50s at the time, I believe.
I would say that if you find the law interesting, you're probably best starting off finding something, anything else to do where you can excel. If you still want to pursue the law later on, it's possible those experiences might make you a compelling special-case applicant for a law school.
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On June 08 2011 08:18 jjun212 wrote:Is it too late for me now and should I look for an alternative profession..? I really do like the idea of law school because even if I don't become a lawyer afterwards, its degree is really versatile.
>,<
Sorry bro, but the JD isn't versatile at all. You really have to know why you're in law school and what you want to do with it. $150k+ in debt is a terrible feeling, especially if you get a JD from a low ranking school.
A couple of sites that can give you some decent information are:
1) http://www.top-law-schools.com/
This site gives you general information on all accredited law schools and lists their UNSWR rank. Visit the TLS forums and sift through the bullshit to find gems of information on applying and succeeding in law school.
I found this site enlightening, but make sure that you don't become too optimistic when looking through it. The people on this site who actually post good information are all fairly successful, but they are the minority when it comes to law students and lawyers.
2) http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/
This nifty site shows you applicant numbers (their GPA and LSAT), their softs (extracurriculars, work experience etc.) and how they fared in their application cycles. I feel this is most important for you, as this site can give a feeling of where you sit. Unfortunately, the other side of this is that it can make you feel like shit and make you doubt yourself if your numbers aren't that good.
The applicants post their results up themselves, so the actual list is very small when compared to how many applications schools get.
3) (if you're a masochist) http://www.xoxohth.com/main.php?forum_id=2
Xoxo law members are much less optimistic than TLS members, and will paint a grim picture of the law schools and the legal field. Both forums land on opposite extremes, so be careful what information you get out of both sides.
These three sites should get you started.
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On June 08 2011 09:43 TOloseGT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 08:18 jjun212 wrote:Is it too late for me now and should I look for an alternative profession..? I really do like the idea of law school because even if I don't become a lawyer afterwards, its degree is really versatile.
>,<
Sorry bro, but the JD isn't versatile at all. You really have to know why you're in law school and what you want to do with it. $150k+ in debt is a terrible feeling, especially if you get a JD from a low ranking school. A couple of sites that can give you some decent information are: 1) http://www.top-law-schools.com/This site gives you general information on all accredited law schools and lists their UNSWR rank. Visit the TLS forums and sift through the bullshit to find gems of information on applying and succeeding in law school. I found this site enlightening, but make sure that you don't become too optimistic when looking through it. The people on this site who actually post good information are all fairly successful, but they are the minority when it comes to law students and lawyers. 2) http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/This nifty site shows you applicant numbers (their GPA and LSAT), their softs (extracurriculars, work experience etc.) and how they fared in their application cycles. I feel this is most important for you, as this site can give a feeling of where you sit. Unfortunately, the other side of this is that it can make you feel like shit and make you doubt yourself if your numbers aren't that good. The applicants post their results up themselves, so the actual list is very small when compared to how many applications schools get. 3) (if you're a masochist) http://www.xoxohth.com/main.php?forum_id=2Xoxo law members are much less optimistic than TLS members, and will paint a grim picture of the law schools and the legal field. Both forums land on opposite extremes, so be careful what information you get out of both sides. These three sites should get you started.
Don't forget that law school in Canada is far cheaper, even for top tier schools like mcgill.
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Are there any class pre-req's etc for law school that this guy would need? Or do you just need to show a GPA and test score?
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United States10774 Posts
On June 08 2011 10:17 Kezzer wrote:
Are there any class pre-req's etc for law school that this guy would need? Or do you just need to show a GPA and test score?
No pre-req classes required for law schools
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17011 Posts
On June 08 2011 09:21 Arkansassy wrote:
My advice is contingent upon your age and if you truly embrace the field of law, or are just looking for a prestigious degree, that's not only difficult to come by, but is a highly competitive field.
Someday, you're going to be 40 and you don't want to look back in regret questioning, "Why didn't I pursue my dream?" You're already crying over spilt milk. You made mistakes - pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over again; however, take a breather first, then afterwards make an educated decision.
Nothing you desire is impossible. Conceive it! Believe it! Achieve it!
As harsh as it may sound, sometimes idealism needs to give way to reality.
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As a person who currently has decent enough grades to get most top law schools I'd say give it a shot. I only plan to apply to Yale, Harvard, Berkeley and Stanford and if I don't get into any of those first try I'll pursue a PhD in philosophy wherever I can do it for cheap/free.
The thing is chances are that top schools won't accept you, but it is ultimately your decision where you want to go; regardless, if you do get into one and have a good idea of what you want to do, I'd say why not? Just have a clear idea of what you want to do. If you end up becoming a good lawyer the debt you acquire shouldn't be a problem. But no, the JD is not very versatile; not when you're in debt anyway.
Edit: Reading the responses I completely lost track of what the question was, haha.
It's never too late to think of law school. In fact, at low reputation schools many of the students start in their late 20s, whatever, because they decided to do something else and get "real world experience" which can prove to be valuable when analyzing a law school application.
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On June 08 2011 08:18 jjun212 wrote:
I know I can achieve that but I just regret not putting effort into my work early on in my undergrad.
If you're not used to putting in a large amount of effort then it is even harder to get into the swing of things. Law school takes a LOT of time and effort. Knowing you CAN succeed is much different than putting in the work and getting it done.
Personally, I think you need some experience in the real world before you find out what you really want out of life, but feel free to prove me wrong!
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On June 08 2011 10:36 Empyrean wrote:
As harsh as it may sound, sometimes idealism needs to give way to reality.
I absolutely agree. In fact, I think you're being too generous. I'd say idealism always needs to give way to reality.
If you didn't give enough of a crap to do well in 5 years of college, law school will chew you up and spit you out. You're going to have to change who you are a person before you even consider it. Good luck is all I can say.
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On June 08 2011 10:36 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:21 Arkansassy wrote:
My advice is contingent upon your age and if you truly embrace the field of law, or are just looking for a prestigious degree, that's not only difficult to come by, but is a highly competitive field.
Someday, you're going to be 40 and you don't want to look back in regret questioning, "Why didn't I pursue my dream?" You're already crying over spilt milk. You made mistakes - pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over again; however, take a breather first, then afterwards make an educated decision.
Nothing you desire is impossible. Conceive it! Believe it! Achieve it! As harsh as it may sound, sometimes idealism needs to give way to reality.
Regardless, someday he'll be 40. He's still young and has time to decide - that's all I'm saying. He might very well take off some time from school and work in a law firm as a deposition or docket clerk, etc.
It's not idealistic to try and achieve something that he's yet to attempt. It's never too late to find out. Hell, there's people in this world that have achieved the impossible, against all odds.
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On June 08 2011 12:00 NukeTheStars wrote:
If you didn't give enough of a crap to do well in 5 years of college, law school will chew you up and spit you out. You're going to have to change who you are a person before you even consider it. Good luck is all I can say.
True enough, but life is long and many people who lack the maturity to apply themselves in college turn into hard-working, dependable people once they are a few years older. The challenge for a law school applicant with a weak academic background is to present a sufficiently compelling case to get admitted despite the weaknesses. How one goes about doing that is not an easy question -- I gather that few people do, but it's possibly not unknown.
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EPT
