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Yeah, I know, it seems a bit silly. Here I was, hoping to get my post in the topic Thank you, soldiers before it was closed. I did slightly dread clicking the post-button. As I did so, my fears were confirmed: the topic was closed. I considered making another topic in the general forum to continue the debate, but as I didn't have any particular motivation for discussing the issue of war in general and the results of such topic would likely be predictable, I decided against it. Manifesto7 did what seems the only right thing - close a topic which in its very existance seems to go against the principles of Teamliquid (free discussion was not allowed, and it was an "empty" topic, which didn't contribute). However, I would still like to express my reflections about this, since the topic was afterall made and mod-sponsored (a mod disclaimer was attached at the top). Therefore, here is the comment I made (yes, dumping stuff in blogs, like with my Jennifer Kesler blog):
I have to say that I can fully emphathize with the need for people to debate this issue even if the topic isn't accepting of debate. It's a bit like someone parading around my house with a pro-war banner and me not being to react to it. This is a community which thrives on open and multi-faceted discussion, so making a topic involving such strong emotions where only one opinion is allowed seems kind of detrimental. I'm sure the idea is that this is supposed to be a "feel-good" topic for the soldiers, and turning it into a debate ruins that. However, I don't think we should try to fool anyone - the soldiers will know that their effort is appreciated greatly by some and mourned by others.
I feel that JamesJohansen expressed his feelings about this issue very well in his post. The idea of it does in fact seem wonderful - the case of people being absolutely selfless, putting others before themselves. And especially the humanitarian efforts by soldiers, even in the line of fire, is nothing but praiseworthy. However, for the many people who do not believe that voilence in any shape, it just seems eternally wrong to thank people who commit that very act. There will always be justifications to commit acts of violence against others, which is why I think JamesJohansen should be happy that the people in here condemning violence and truly meaning it will make up future generations.
Granted, it does provide me with some measure of security to know that there are many armed forces between me and anyone who would want to charge at me with a gun, but it would be selfish of me to blindly appreciate this, despite the evil it breeds and sustains. Of course, much of this sentiment is based in my strong belief that if everyone laid down their weapons, it would not automatically lead to someone oppressing or killing everyone else. Instead, I think that continuing the fighting maintains a norm that supports warfare, making voilent conflicts something that naturally occurs in society. It almost brought me to tears of happiness when I read in a newspaper that examination had shown that less than then percent of soldiers on the battlefied in the major wars actually ever fired a shot at an enemy, all the killing was done by a very small percentage who were able to bring themselves to kill the enemy (if I remember the proportions of it correctly). Essentially, I think the best thing you can ever do to stop violence is not to commit any yourself.
I concede that humanity has still not evolved to a stage where we will be without voilent conflicts. I can understand why soldiers do what they do, even if I find it wrong, but I will never be able to thank them.
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I have to agree with you. I feel that soldiering has changed over the last 50 years or so. The main World Wars were people being conscripted to fight some lunatic who was trying to take over the world. These people get my full respect since they changed the course of history at great cost.
These days I see soldiers as (mainly) meatshield types who are there to enforce the will of their governements. Despot in Iraq? Overthrow! Despot in Zimbabwe? Ignore! Despot in Libya. Overthrow! Despot in Yemen / Syria? Ignore! I find it hard to give respect to soldiers who are now just puppets to regeimes that fabricate reasons to fight or are inconsistent in applying their rules.
It's a controversial topic and I'm sure my opinion will not be widely held but meh.
And edit* Before someone calls me a basement dwelling faggot with no respect and no idea of the real world, I was conscripted into the SA armed forces and helped futher my countries (then) Appartheid agenda. Yay me! :r
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The thing is, Asjo, the thread made by jackblack, wasn't a debate - it was a thank you. If ya didn't wanna thank the soldiers, who fight, then you should have stayed out of the thread. (YOU being collective - not meaning you personally)
But see how easily wars are started? Even in a thank you thread. *Just shakes my head*
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I agree completely. I felt the same thing when I read the thread.
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wow, memorial day is for remembering and appreciating the veterans that have served. They were put into the circumstances of war one way or another, either voluntarily or through force, and armchair warriors that have not been in war should be grateful and thankful for their countrymen's service.
You can basically just drop your bullshit about "wrong to thank those people that commited those acts." Everyone wants to avoid war, but it happens, and the people that did serve fight so that in the future potentially we do not have to fight. When you say to not thank them you're missing the entire damn point of memorial day. It's not debate why they went to war, how they did, or other war related things.
It's to acknowledge that through one circumstance or another they were put into a war situation and they deserve the thanks and appreciation.
One main reason why you and I can sit here making our damn posts is because people have gone out and fought to protect our freedoms so you can sit here and not thank them. Get some perspective and common sense, your outlook is naive and disrespectful.
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I'd love to live in a violence-free world, but we'll certainly not see one in our lifetimes. That world will probably never exist, either. I don't think it's a cynical view so much as an acceptance of who we are as a race.
Humans are opportunistic animals. Where one lays down his weapon, another is jumping at the chance to take advantage of him. It happens everywhere, in all sorts of ways. Whether it's taking advantage of somebody's defenselessness, sorrow, fear, or anger there will always be humans who use other humans to their own ends.
Another thing that I personally believe (and this is a more cynical view I admit) is that some people are simply born evil. So many things can be attributed to ignorance, bad upbringing, or a lack of a proper education, but some of the worst kinds of people come from the best backgrounds and go to Ivy league schools. And for that reason I do believe armed forces are absolutely necessary.
An unfortunate side effect is that you will always get unneeded violence in situations where a simple conversation could be better suited to bring the peace, but I hate to say that unnecessary violence is a whole lot better than having the world enslaved by someone like say, Kim Jong Il, because there was no one left to fight back.
I don't think there's any way you can pretty it up or glorify it, but it's something we need. And I can appreciate someone not thanking an Iraq veteran for their service, but I'd also like to think the OP would be able to squeeze out a thank you to a man who risks his life to break him out of a concentration camp. 
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Soldiers does wonderful things, unfortunately it's in the very nature of being a soldier to kill, maim and torture. That's even the definition.
Today's armed forces have moved away from these ideals and in large they are now more like humanitarian aid organizations. The problem is, I no not know how effective their humanitarian aid is, I feel that it is causing a lot of havoc.
I recently saw a documentary about a group of danish soldiers who were deployed to Afghanistan. (It was called Armadillo) What I saw in that movie did not impress me.
I feel that people who become soldiers oftentimes do so on selfish reasons, not because they are evil in anyway but because it will get them through college or they like the status the job gives them.
Otherwise, why not simply sign up as a volunteer worker for the Red Cross? That's where you can really make a difference.
I just want to clarify that I do by no means mean disrespect to the soldiers fighting, I just think they are human like the rest of us. Unfortunately, they are humans with a lot of power and when they screw up, lives are lost.
EDIT:
I do agree that armed forces are needed, I'm just questioning the use they are put to today. The soldiers who fight in wars deserve praise, but not because they are soldiers but because of the good deeds they have performed.
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I don't really have any particular respect for soldiers who fight for the money aka all western armies. I don't have any disrespect, they are just doing a job that gets them income, what's special about that?
The guys who fought in the Great War and WW2 are of course extremely deserving of praise and being called 'the greatest generation'.
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War is an unfortunate circumstance that happens in the world we live in. No matter the circumstances or who the soldiers are I feel it's important to always hold at least some appreciation for what they do -risking their lives to protect your freedom and your country. Thats the bottom line, maybe I don't always agree with what wars are being waged, or what my countries policies are, but the bottom line is are these guys are risking their lives and for that I think we should always be thankful.
Both of my parents are former military as well so it's always a little more special for me personally.
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On May 31 2011 07:59 Stenstyren wrote:
Soldiers does wonderful things, unfortunately it's in the very nature of being a soldier to kill, maim and torture. That's even the definition.
Today's armed forces have moved away from these ideals and in large they are now more like humanitarian aid organizations. The problem is, I no not know how effective their humanitarian aid is, I feel that it is causing a lot of havoc.
I recently saw a documentary about a group of danish soldiers who were deployed to Afghanistan. (It was called Armadillo) What I saw in that movie did not impress me.
I feel that people who become soldiers oftentimes do so on selfish reasons, not because they are evil in anyway but because it will get them through college or they like the status the job gives them.
Otherwise, why not simply sign up as a volunteer worker for the Red Cross? That's where you can really make a difference.
I just want to clarify that I do by no means mean disrespect to the soldiers fighting, I just think they are human like the rest of us. Unfortunately, they are humans with a lot of power and when they screw up, lives are lost.
I don't think people should care about their motives, but they should look at their actions. If a soldier puts his life on the line for me, I don't care what his motive is, I am just happy that he is doing it.
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What's everybody's stance on mechanized soldiers?(i.e. drones, exosuits, remote controlled weapons kinda stuff) What do they mean for the future of war and all its pains? How does it make you feel about our veterans and how does it affect our culture's outlook on war? It seems like this subject, though a bit far from your OP, is not talked about very much and merits more debate. Does the creation of drones miss the point of war?
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On May 31 2011 08:47 Roe wrote:
What's everybody's stance on mechanized soldiers?(i.e. drones, exosuits, remote controlled weapons kinda stuff) What do they mean for the future of war and all its pains? How does it make you feel about our veterans and how does it affect our culture's outlook on war? It seems like this subject, though a bit far from your OP, is not talked about very much and merits more debate. Does the creation of drones miss the point of war?
I'm just fucking scared about what will happen to collateral damage numbers.
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Soldiers are needed to defend democracies.
What bother me is if a regime based on nazi theories or religious fascists like Al Queda comes and attacks us. I think soldiers are needed to defend vs extremeties like these.
What i dont like is when soldiers joins up in a campaign to attack a foreign country, get rid of the independent central bank of that country and establish a huge loan for that country in the name of growth so that this attacked country will subdue to become enslaved by the world bank and IMF, wich is controlled by the rich of rich.
Watch:
http://rt.com/news/us-lies-libya-laden-crane/
(i think he has some good points, but i dont believe in everything he says)
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Well, some soldiers fight for the necessary ideals, bringing liberty, life, and freedom to human beings that may not have any, whilst at the same time putting other lives in front of theirs. I remember a quote in WW2 "We didn't storm the beaches for America, we did it to not let down our fellow comrades" (something along those lines)
Other soldiers sometimes just go against these ideals (I recall once when a group of soldiers killed the parents of an Iraqi children)
The soldiers that belong to the first category are the ones that should be praised. Thanks to all soldiers that do.
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God, it's so difficult to moderate myself when posting on this issue. But I did the best I could.
That thread may have been a benevolent "Thank you" thread, but at some point the OP should have been aware that TL is a multicultural environment, with people from all over the globe, and each of them having their own history and experience with war. The subject of the thread was fundamentally very provocative and most posts were incredibly culturally biased (as are some of the replies on this thread). As such, I don't think TL is the right place for that kind of thread, and I'm happy it's closed.
I'm actually amazed by how people refuse to think past their political and patriotic sentiments. For every soldier you believe is protecting your way of life, there's another soldier threatening you and your family on the other side. They are both soldiers, and if one takes up a rifle, so will the other. They both have families they believe they're protecting. They're both ready to die (and much more importantly, kill) for what they believe in - or even worse, just because they're told to. We're not fighting against aliens or monsters on this planet, it's other human lives that are being taken as a consequence, and you expect people to be universally thankful to the instrument of that destruction?
I understand the sentiments behind that thread, but this isn't the place for it. At best, not everyone shares the same experiences and opinions, and with such a one-sided approach you're only going to rub people the wrong way. At worst, there may be people on TL who are or were or had lives of their family or friends directly threatened by the soldiers you're thanking (and vice versa of course).
Sure you can ask them to stay away from the thread, but is it not honestly better to keep those threads away from TL (especially if you do not want to engage in a debate about it)? It's common sense. -_-
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On May 31 2011 08:47 Roe wrote:
Does the creation of drones miss the point of war?
Whats the old saying? The point of war isn't to die for your country, its to make some other bastard die for his. In that sense, I dont think it misses the point.
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On May 31 2011 07:24 Deja Thoris wrote:
These days I see soldiers as (mainly) meatshield types who are there to enforce the will of their governements. Despot in Iraq? Overthrow! Despot in Zimbabwe? Ignore! Despot in Libya. Overthrow! Despot in Yemen / Syria? Ignore! I find it hard to give respect to soldiers who are now just puppets to regeimes that fabricate reasons to fight or are inconsistent in applying their rules. That's a very silly and superficial view that ignores the bigger picture. Soldiers aren't any more puppets than you are when you buy a product because an advertising told you to. And they aren't doing more harm to the world than you are when you buy a product without worrying about their business practices. For example an american will kill much more people and make much more people's life miserable by buying fuel from BP then they'll do by joining the army.
You can't go around the world blaming everyone who is being fooled by others for believing what they were told. Blame the ones fooling the soldiers, not the soldiers being fooled. If you really want to stop wars. Then stop voting on stupid corrupt politicians, who send them to wars for no good reason. Soldiers themselves are as guilty as you are.
I'm 100% anti-war but blaming it on soldiers is jaw dropping stupid and short sighted.
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I think the fact that no American war in that last 70 years has been necessary has shaped the contemporary uneasiness with celebrating warriors. I see why it was great after the American Civil war or World War 2, but being that for a 50 years now the American army has been volunteer based and has routinely fabricated myths in order to invade half the planet, it makes sense why we see this backlash.
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On May 31 2011 07:24 Deja Thoris wrote:
I have to agree with you. I feel that soldiering has changed over the last 50 years or so. The main World Wars were people being conscripted to fight some lunatic who was trying to take over the world. These people get my full respect since they changed the course of history at great cost.
These days I see soldiers as (mainly) meatshield types who are there to enforce the will of their governements. Despot in Iraq? Overthrow! Despot in Zimbabwe? Ignore! Despot in Libya. Overthrow! Despot in Yemen / Syria? Ignore! I find it hard to give respect to soldiers who are now just puppets to regeimes that fabricate reasons to fight or are inconsistent in applying their rules.
I just want to respond to this to avoid having my opinion misrepresented. I don't think that the wars today are fundamentally different than those of the past. They are in some way all results of some kind of fight over resources, power or cultural dominance. Of course, you could say that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are ones you choose to fight, while World War II was one that happened, where people chose to respond with violence. But I do not support taking part in any wars.
What I referred to when I talked about huminatarian efforts was soldiers who help rebuild communities, bring out aid, provide stability and security in societies that have broken down, bridge cultural gaps, etc.
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Soldiering has always been glorified, and for very many reasons it should. There is a kind of nobility in fighting for the rights and freedoms of others by putting your own life on the line.
The problem with this glorification is I think that a lot of soldiers join nowadays for the wrong reasons. They join out of boredom or inability to decide on a vocation, or because they think it's super-cool. These are the ones that lose it the fastest in a war situation, and they are the first to do the unspeakable things that you sometimes hear of soldiers doing. They would have been screwups back home, but now they're screwups overseas, and their screwups involve other peoples' lives. They soil the reputation of good-natured people who just want to get the job done.
As a result this type of behaviour plus anti-war sentiment for political reasons leads to the gross mistreatment of soldiers by more left-thinking people. These people also tend to be more outspoken with their opinions, so they hurt the soldiers even more.
Just listen to Sgt. Worcester's monologue in Hamburger Hill. It's heartbreaking.
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EPT
