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Foreigners are pretty good right now, but the thing is, they'll fall behind.
It's a little after a year since starcraft two has been released. And in starcraft one, Koreans were dominant. But they aren't in starcraft two. In my opinion, this is because the game hasn't been completely figured out and people haven't figured out how to play consistently. On this note, when that day comes, Koreans will pull ahead.
Why? Because koreans are focused. They have better work ethics. They use their time well. Foreigners may play 8-12 hours a day like koreans, but what are they doing with their time? Coaching? This won't improve you as a pro player. Laddering? If you aren't laddering on the korean ladder, it's better to use your time to practice with other people on your team, or other pros on a high level. On any other ladder but NA, you're usually going to hit nobodies who aren't going to help you get better by playing them.
Korea doesn't have that problem, if you're on the high end of the ladder, then you're probably going to hit tip top tier players that are consistently at the top. If you're a foreigner, this is your chance to be practicing against them before they slowly get ahead of you.
HuK's in the right, practicing in korea. On state of the game, he said something that really hit me "You've gotta be in it for something, not just the easy money from the west". The money's good in the West, but the best way for you to improve is to be practicing against the tip top.
The koreans strict schedules, while not as strict as BW, still will bring them ahead of the west, eventually.
 
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came into topic expecting rise of islam in Europe.
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New and exciting information you've shared with us, can't believe I didn't realize this before. I hope you're wrong.
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This blog looks familiar... De ja vu?
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On May 26 2011 13:04 FakePlasticLove wrote:
came into topic expecting rise of islam in Europe.
I thought this was going to be about the rise of China.
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And here I was expecting an argument supporting the merits of the rising Chinese industry.
Edit: ouch, a second too late
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Was exactly what i expected to read haha guess i am too interested in e-sports =/.
Anyways I kinda agree here. Because i think your major point is When Sc2 is more about mechanics/play than B/O's they will pull ahead because they do have a better work ethic. Western players just simply arent willing to put in the 12+ hours a day that eastern players do. (And I am not saying "ALL PROS NEED TO PLAY 12 HOURS A DAY!") I am just saying that if your competition IS willing to do so, they will gain the advantage if you aren't.
But who knows as e-sports grows they get taken more seriously and maybe players will turn it into a full time job like the east does.
BUT Atm I feel like the game is more about Build orders/gimmick timings than actual mechanics.
If you can figure out abusive timings you dont need to get strong mechanics, just "able" mechanics with an abusive B/O. We already see players who either Win with their abusive timing, or get stomped in macro games. (won't give names tho). Tho even to have "able" mechanics, as I call them, is still not easy to do. Obviously, or every1 could copy a B/O and win tourneys.
But at this point its not really possible for any player to "Stand out" as this game just doesnt focus on mechanics yet, as its just not at that point of polish yet.
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On May 26 2011 13:25 MaestroSC wrote:
Was exactly what i expected to read haha guess i am too interested in e-sports =/.
Anyways I kinda agree here. Because i think your major point is When Sc2 is more about mechanics/play than B/O's they will pull ahead because they do have a better work ethic. Western players just simply arent willing to put in the 12+ hours a day that eastern players do. (And I am not saying "ALL PROS NEED TO PLAY 12 HOURS A DAY!") I am just saying that if your competition IS willing to do so, they will gain the advantage if you aren't.
But who knows as e-sports grows they get taken more seriously and maybe players will turn it into a full time job like the east does.
Not that westerners aren't willing to play 12 hours a day, but what they're making out of the 12 hours just doesn't compare to what the koreans get out of it. Because of the pro-gaming house enviroment, and the stricter work ethic, they just are more in tune to the game, in my opinion. Not that westerners aren't, but they're coaching, laddering against people that aren't too good (on a pro standard), etc. In korea, you're either a coach or a player. In the west, you can be both, and I don't think that's good for the pro players, because if they want to improve and move with the game, they'll need to get the most out of their time.
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On May 26 2011 13:28 johnnywup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 13:25 MaestroSC wrote:
Was exactly what i expected to read haha guess i am too interested in e-sports =/.
Anyways I kinda agree here. Because i think your major point is When Sc2 is more about mechanics/play than B/O's they will pull ahead because they do have a better work ethic. Western players just simply arent willing to put in the 12+ hours a day that eastern players do. (And I am not saying "ALL PROS NEED TO PLAY 12 HOURS A DAY!") I am just saying that if your competition IS willing to do so, they will gain the advantage if you aren't.
But who knows as e-sports grows they get taken more seriously and maybe players will turn it into a full time job like the east does. Not that westerners aren't willing to play 12 hours a day, but what they're making out of the 12 hours just doesn't compare to what the koreans get out of it. Because of the pro-gaming house enviroment, and the stricter work ethic, they just are more in tune to the game, in my opinion. Not that westerners aren't, but they're coaching, laddering against people that aren't too good (on a pro standard), etc. In korea, you're either a coach or a player. In the west, you can be both, and I don't think that's good for the pro players, because if they want to improve and move with the game, they'll need to get the most out of their time.
I agree with this also.
Pro Western players do a LOT more than just play SC2. They commentate, they coach, they play other games, they are on podcasts, they are spokepeople, college students, full time job people. It's just very different from your standard Eastern Pro Player.
But all of these things don't add to their skills like just practising SC2 would. There is a difference from practising 12 hours a day and spending 12 hours a day logged onto Sc2.
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yeah the koreans will pull ahead.
but i guarantee you the west will still have MUCH more of a presence than in bw. the skillcap is so much lower than practicing 7 hours a day instead of 11 isn't as much of a difference.
but i need to say that until the west breaks the image of video games being seen as entertainment for failures/kids/people living in the basement and begin to accept it as a sport it'll never be successful.
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The whole ladder thing is one of the problems. There are a ton of stories of non-progamers just screwing up when they get put against a pro on ladder and giving them a practical free win. Which sucks if the pros are trying to practice -.-
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The whole of this argument rests on the game being figured out, something that in the very same State of the Game you mentioned, likely wouldn't happen for a very, very long time. With the release of HotS and LotV, balance and meta-game alike will be up-ended. In six months to a year, we will arrive at the same point in balance and meta-game with HotS. After that LotV will mess everything up again. That's what, 2-3 years or so before we get to a point when the game can begin being 'figured out'? Before that time, we'll see the borders between the S.K. scene and the rest of the world become increasingly intertwined. Hopefully the e-sports world will have evolved to the point that the work ethic will homogenize across borders, as tournaments attract more diverse competition.
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Just a microcosm of why the west will fall behind in other areas as well. We just don't have the same work ethic.
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Wait how do you know what pros do when they practice (hint: you have no idea, hint: there is a european gaming house). Also pretty sure most pros have acess to a korean account, hell even non pro players (like me) have access to one.
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As long as the top RTS players in Korea play BW, Korea won't get too far ahead. The strict practice environments are there in BW because players want them, they want to devote their lives to BW. Recent interviews with fantasy and Hydra (the recent OSL and MSL winners) showed them to have no lives at all outside of practicing SC, no other interests. When Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu came onto the scene they were practicing 14+ hours a day. No SC2 player has that kind of dedication. The closest thing to this so far was Naniwa refusing to go sightseeing or partying in New York.
The west is fine as long as the Korean practice environments stay as relaxed as the Western ones. But someone who devotes their life to RTS will always do better than those with lives.
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The SC2 practice conventions in Korea are more relaxed than the BW one, but you can't compare it to western standards, at all. In some interview somebody from IM said (sorry, I searched for it but couldn't find it anymore), that they have to practice 10 hourse a day, but they can choose how to divide these hours around the day. Of course that would never be possible in a Kespa-BW team, but still 10 hours of actual practice is something pretty much nobody outside of Korea does for SC2.
So I agree with the OP, if Starcraft 2 is a game where practice and hard work pay out, Koreans will dominate more and more as time goes on. And even if I'm wrong, and the practice regiments in Korea are much less strict than I think, there will eventually be Koreans who devote every single minute of their day to practice.
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On May 26 2011 16:38 WAAA wrote:
Wait how do you know what pros do when they practice (hint: you have no idea, hint: there is a european gaming house). Also pretty sure most pros have acess to a korean account, hell even non pro players (like me) have access to one.
did you even read what I wrote? I adressed that. i dont know completely what they do to practice, but if they aren't devoting their practice to actually practice (hint: most pros in west also coach) (hint: i know they ladder on kr but theres lat and they dont really have tip top level practice partners in kr.
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IMO when you are talking about pros then you can't generalise (the sample size is too small).
As long as there is a large player base and opportunity then very talented players will develop into top pros. In BW the player base was bigger in KR and there was no opportunity outside KR. Now there is both so I don't expect KR to pull ahead, unless the scene colapses in the west.
This Korean work ethic argument seems based on unsubstantiated cultural stereotypes.
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I think the bigger question is who cares? I am so tired of people sucking Korea's dick, this is just baseless speculation. The Huk comment is so ironic because people were touting the GSL as being the key point in showing that Korea was the ultimate SC2 scene. So apparently whether the big money is in the East or the West Korea is still going to be the best.
This sycophantic bull shit is getting so old. I don't give a shit if the Koreans are better at the game because they run slave houses where they force children to play 14 hours a day. I am the only one that sees something wrong with playing over 10 hours of starcraft a day especially for someone at such a young age. I mean there has to be some bounds of reason, hell I play video games a freaking lot and if I think it is excessive then damn it must be bad. Cut the crap with this dedication talk and really think how much is too much.
User was warned for this post
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On May 27 2011 11:39 SlipperySnake wrote:
I think the bigger question is who cares? I am so tired of people sucking Korea's dick, this is just baseless speculation. The Huk comment is so ironic because people were touting the GSL as being the key point in showing that Korea was the ultimate SC2 scene. So apparently whether the big money is in the East or the West Korea is still going to be the best.
This sycophantic bull shit is getting so old. I don't give a shit if the Koreans are better at the game because they run slave houses where they force children to play 14 hours a day. I am the only one that sees something wrong with playing over 10 hours of starcraft a day especially for someone at such a young age. I mean there has to be some bounds of reason, hell I play video games a freaking lot and if I think it is excessive then damn it must be bad. Cut the crap with this dedication talk and really think how much is too much.
User was warned for this post
Its no different then Olympic athletes who spend 100% of their time training for their specific event, that it completely acceptable in society so how is SC any different? Players can make a legitimate career out of playing SC so its not as if they are completely wasting their time.
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EPT
