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There's no TL:DR version.
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A topic came up yesterday on a website I'm a part of and I voiced my opinion there, even though it was offtopic. Because I knew what the stuff was about, I knew what was up despite giving a generic answer. I will expand on that opinion furthermore.
A Silver-level Terran player was a bit puzzled that we weren't telling her when she played poorly. In general, I don't tell people that they suck because I believe in Karma: If I tell people they "suck", I will be told that I "suck" in return. That, and it's a judgement of value on someone's unrefined, barely birthing play. It's like telling a very small budding tree (when it's all frail and shit) that it ain't a tree (then accessorily proceed to crush it before it even feeds off of the soil and becomes a sturdy tree over time). From now, translate "suck" by "unrefined in skill" - even though there are different levels.
If someone really sucks at the game, it means they don't even have a clue of what they're doing. They don't even know that you must never take a gas at 7 or something (I've seen it done - I'm still trying to get my buddy out of it :D). As in, they need directions of what this does, what you can't get away with and stuff. Luckily, back when I literally sucked I was treated nicely by the guys on the Teamliquid channel. I told them that I totally sucked and didn't know shit about the game, yet still showed "promise" upon my 2nd game at 'faster' speed. Then the "Bronze Practice" channel on the European servers came into place and observing games allowed me to know what I just couldn't get away with. Basically, Patch 1.2 was the end of my terribad-sucking "Forever Bronze" days (and I'm not talking about Bronze players who actually watch streams and are just not at ease with the whole stuff, I'll come back to those later).
Now, the better one gets, the more understanding they get and the higher the standards go. While I'm terribly bad at handling it for myself, I can motivate others to reaching other heights (and this is life-tested, life-proven) even though my ways are unorthodox.
Illustration time!
There's this guy (myself) who sucked at Basketball (still sucks, being good at basketball means I'm in the NBA/Euroleague). Then again, there also was this dude who didn't know much about basketball. So, back then I was the better player at the team (and I was also fit, oh the good days) but there also was this guy who was on the bench, not getting much playing time. In my free time, I would take the ball and go to the hoops and just go for it, go for it, go for it. That bench guy wanted to get better so he joined me in one of these sessions and asked me how he could manage to get better. I willfully accepted to get him to improve at the game.
What I would do is setting objectives, giving some directives on how to do things, at times doing quite the nutty stuff (obstacle courses, extreme drills, you name it). I'd do them effortlessly (or with some struggle) and would really push him to do them. Whether he would complete them or not was not the deal, it was all about getting him to do those things since they would be useful in a game. We also watched tape (as in, footage of supergood basketball players doing their work - i.e. NBA players). The more we did that, the more we took some chill time outside of basketball (be it studying or just going to a Counter-Strike LAN).
Because I didn't go all "You're a bench-warmer, you don't have a future", "You suck", "You don't have a future", "gtfo scrub" (and anything bashful you'd see in the Internet) and actually helped him into getting better, not only did I win me a superfriend but he also got better. He ended the year in the starting five and we actually kept on playing for whichever team we'd be in until studies called me and I went overseas.
Did you notice that I said "helped him get better" and not "got him to be better"? It's because he did the work himself. I just ignited a spark, leveled up expectations the more he was doing and that's it. He was getting better, I knew it. I just set up higher objectives every time. Despite the fact that he failed, I let him fail. I'd even put him in situations where he would more than probably fail at some point but would congratulate him on failing because the point was that he just had to test things out himself.
So, yeah. Back to the point.
In StarCraft II, you won't see anything like that and I'm in a position where I'm the bench warmer. So far, I haven't found anything like that. Despite all the training that I underwent, I still can't get over my own hump. The community perceives anything under high Masters league as "bad players whose input doesn't count". Excuse me guys, but this sort of stance is a loser's attitude. We all are entitled input, let us fail. Let us notice that failure is an option and that it'd most likely give us losses. We'll learn, don't worry.
So far, I'm being massively discouraged to play the game not because of the community's disdain of people who are not quick enough, reactive enough and focused enough. I'm massively discouraged by that voice in my head that tells me "You suck.", "You have no future here". I don't feel encouraged. Because of my own internal issues, this is just amplified to a degree where I am unable to think anywhere near positively of myself (even though I definitely have the bases down - don't think elitist, think self-satisfactory). Of course I have this ambition to be one of the best at the game (read: KT.Flash material or... better?) but that's perfectionism for you.
I don't want anyone to feel this way. That, and because I know some basics, I can make people focus on basics when asked. I can help people get better... not myself.
As long as you know how to do a 3rax, 14pool 14hatch or 4gate (yes, even 4gate) then you don't suck. You know something. Go forward, seek people who can have a positive attitude to failure and be a gosu. If you aren't at the stage where you don't know what to do with your probes, then you don't suck. You just need directions.
 
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I feel like there are two kinds of criticism that people hurl towards supposed "noobies." There's the unhelpful kind that you have posted about ("you suck", etc) and the more constructive kind where people simply let them know what they're doing wrong.
I think its important for players to criticize themselves in the first way, that inner monologue helps provide people with motivation to improve. Instead of allowing that to discourage you, you should recognize that most of us are "bad" by pro standards and we're all just trying to get better. Try to turn that discouragement into a stronger drive to improve.
You're definitely correct in saying that another person pointing out how bad you are is of no help at all ^_^
EDIT: spelling
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Well, you DO suck at the game. So do I. That doesn't mean you (we) can't change it. It still stands that the moment we speaking we totally suck at the game.
It doesn't matter if we knew some small basics if we talk to players who are way better. I don't play sc2, but I played BW at Iccup B Level. (not super bad, but not really good either, better than non-korean average I guess). It's certainly better than gold or diamond and I still think I suck and I accept that I suck.
It's in fact important to understand that you, especially when you are a bronz or silver, you don't know shit about the game.
When I would talk to Jaedong or basically any progamer or foreigner that is definitely better than me, I have to accept that they do understand the game better and that in comparison I suck. Which means when they tell me to listen because I suck and my opinion means shit, I have to accept it because in comparison to them, it's the truth.
Obviously it doesn't help if they only say you suck at the game and doesn't give tips to improve. But to understand that someone at the current state (not that he can never be good) really sucks isn't so bad imo.
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I definitely agree to what you say, Immaterial.
If that inner monologue doesn't exist, it means that they're unrefined and don't know it. Facing someone who's really good at the game or seeing someone who's better at the game in their close environment will really help. Fortunately, we have pros who stream and, if anything, they'll be like:
"I'm good, but he's godlike!" and either want to be like him or just be satisfied with their skill and not look to get better. To each their interest and degree of involvement in the game.
As for Keniji, that's what I'm getting at. This thing. "You suck, I suck, the world sucks and even some progamers suck" stance is like... Excuse me? For some reason, it is absurd. Because you have seen better doesn't mean that everyone is bad to the point where you judge them by value. You are judging them by Jaedong standards. How many people have reached that level? Not many. So does that mean that anyone who was really really really good (Day[9], Mondragon, etc) but not at that level just sucks?
We need to compare much less, have less disdain and just help the poor fellow when they blatantly ask for it (even when they're venting about op-Protoss or want marauders nerfed - that's a glaring sign that there's something they don't get, where you can help). If you don't help them, then don't do anything - not even saying "You suck".
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There are two sides to the story. For every SC2 gamer who sucks and who feels really bad about how much they suck, who bemoans being stuck in silver but tries so hard to improve, there's someone in Bronze who is convinced they're there because of poor strategy, or not knowing how to counter their opponents, when in fact they're completely fucking wrong and the reason they lose games is they stop making probes for 30-40 seconds at a time, get supply blocked every second pylon, don't make enough production buildings, or make too many on too few bases, don't use their production facilities that they do have, and end up with 40 less food than they should have by the 8min mark in the game.
But can you tell them this? Noooo, its all "my strategy was bad", or "I just get all-in'd and can't win".
Never do they accept that their fundamental macro is what they need to work on. If you say this, they'll come back with something like "my macro is okay but I want to work on everything else too, I want to have fun at this game not mindlessly grind" and my answer to that is "if losing is fun keep doing what you're doing, if winning is fun then shut the fuck up and listne"
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cheeseing every single game (or playing zerg :p) and that being the only thing you can do does mean you suck. if you havn't played the game longer then 10 minutes each you really shouldn't consider yourself to have any quality at all in this game.
that being said I would join a clan. the one I'm in at least has been very very helpful to make me better. The important part to treating "lesser" people is to not make it personal and just to tell the truth to them about what they are doing wrong and most importantly what they can do to do it better.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
hmm. bluntly accepting that you "suck" removes many of the ego barriers that keep people from improving. it's always been a motivating statement to me instead of a discouraging one, so i guess i just can't relate!
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Somebody tell me if I'm wrong, but bronze and silver make up about 40% of the total players, so I don't think you (we) should feel bad about being in those leagues. Also, you're not counting the fact that you're certainly a lot better than the people who won't go near computer games because they are so bad.
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On May 23 2011 23:42 intrigue wrote:
hmm. bluntly accepting that you "suck" removes many of the ego barriers that keep people from improving. it's always been a motivating statement to me instead of a discouraging one, so i guess i just can't relate!
Two things about this:
1- Yes, the first step of improvement is self realization. You have to realize that or you can't improve even a bit.
2- A person constantly telling you that you suck is annoying and discouraging for you (or rather me), immature and stupid for him (or rather in my opinion). I don't say that the guy doesn't "suck" but rather I say that there are better ways to make the guy aware of this fact (in my case, you get me to watch one of my replays  ) and I think that's what OP is talking about.
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Dhalphir, well if people are so set in their mindset that they won't budge even in front of blatant evidence, then they're making excuses.
If we were to consider the data from Liquipedia,
Master - 2.6% - 97th+ percentile, only 200 players are better than them.
Diamond - 10.9% - 86th-97th percentile
Platinum - 14.2% - 72nd-86th percentile
Gold - 16.9% - 55th-72nd percentile
Silver - 21.1% - 34th-55th percentile
Bronze - 34.2% - 0th-34th percentile
a Bronze player has at least 66% of the population who do things better than they do (less nexus/CC/hatch downtime on drones, etc). If they're not encline to refine their play, then they will stay in this state. If they're venting without being willing to learn, just ignore the SC2-side of it, there must be something else going on in their minds. SC2 might not be the main concern there.
@ Intrigue: (Sorry for the incoming basketball analogy :D)
TL;DR: Djagulingu nailed it period (edit: damn me for not reading his first point carefully - I mean he was spot on in that post).
As for the realizing that you "suck" part, I'd rather call that the "Reality Check" phase.
A young teenager who loves basketball would love to play like Kobe Bryant (or anything in those waters). We won't tell them: "You suck!".Let's just tell them that they have ways to go and encourage them.
Of course they'll feel that their jumper/conditioning/anything could need some improvement and all, but they also have to be able to read the game's generalities (zone, man-to-man, etc) and subtleties as well (running plays that are really advanced that I would forget myself not focusing on the plays that are being run - tells you how much I "suck" at basketball and just see the scorers/star players). Once they're exposed to the facts, they know that they aren't all that good and that there are ways to go.
On SC2, the "star players" like Kobe and all are the TLOs, Nesteas and co. BW? Jaedong, Bisu, Flash...
As for the suckage part, people just say "You suck" which can have various offputting effects. I personally come from an offbringing where negativity is so rampant it's unhealthy - and I'm not looking for offputting stuff.
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On May 24 2011 00:02 TheDeli wrote:
Dhalphir, well if people are so set in their mindset that they won't budge even in front of blatant evidence, then they're making excuses.
If we were to consider the data from Liquipedia,
Master - 2.6% - 97th+ percentile, only 200 players are better than them.
Diamond - 10.9% - 86th-97th percentile
Platinum - 14.2% - 72nd-86th percentile
Gold - 16.9% - 55th-72nd percentile
Silver - 21.1% - 34th-55th percentile
Bronze - 34.2% - 0th-34th percentile
a Bronze player has at least 66% of the population who do things better than they do (less nexus/CC/hatch downtime on drones, etc). If they're not encline to refine their play, then they will stay in this state. If they're venting without being willing to learn, just ignore the SC2-side of it, there must be something else going on in their minds. SC2 might not be the main concern there.
Do we need to psychoanalyze their lifestyle? O.o
Frankly people learn in different ways. Maybe it's more popular to learn from a gentle teacher than a rough one, but there are people who can teach themselves bluntly too. Working to at least stop being ridiculed can be a form of motivation. Like intrigue said, there are some people who overcome hurdles by saying that they suck. For some this could also demotivate them depending on how it gets across.
On the same note, there are the deluded that think they aren't at fault or think that they are actually getting better when they aren't.
There's all types really.
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I'd rather be told I suck than to be that cocky diamond noob who thinks he's the shiz because he knows how to execute a 4-gate. The problem to me seems to be the fact that people take being told they suck at Starcraft personal. Any pro here can tell you they once completely sucked and that they still suck relative to the possiblities they see. It's a mindset, not a judgment per se.
Complimenting yourself when you're playing nowhere near decent is just counter productive when you're aiming to be the best. You can be satisfied by accomplishing certain goals you've set for yourself but excusing bad play is just ... bad.
PS. your tree reference doesn't make any sense since a tree grows regardless of what you tell it. Given the right nutrients and time it WILL become a sturdy tree, people however have to choose to be better. If you don't train to be better you won't get better, in order to become a big tree you have to realize you're a little tree.
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On May 23 2011 23:42 intrigue wrote:
hmm. bluntly accepting that you "suck" removes many of the ego barriers that keep people from improving. it's always been a motivating statement to me instead of a discouraging one, so i guess i just can't relate!
Yea, same here. I found myself able to improve and reach masters from constantly telling myself I was horrible and needed improvement in all areas of my play. Not having that kind of attitude sets up a barrier where you won't take losing well or improve from your mistakes or acknowledge your own failings as a cause of your loss instead of some imbalance or "abusive" strategy. Accepting that I'm a bad player, I can focus on improving instead of getting angry and being dumbfounded by a losing streak. "no, marine timings aren't the spawn of satan, I just need to work on my scouting and baneling micro".
As for the hating on noobies thing, the only time I do that is when bad players don't accept that they're bad and try to pass themselves off as more knowledgable than they are. If you're a low level player you really need to accept that your input isn't valuable as a high masters or grandmaster player. I almost never post on the strat forum because I know that as a player who can't even hold a positive winrate in low masters my input probably isn't that helpful. Also if Morrow or Idra tell me I'm wrong on something pertaining to the game, then I'm probably gonna accept that I'm completely wrong because theyre infinitely better players than me.
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You're right in saying that the internet is not the greatest place for encouragement if you're trying to get better. Primarily if you're not a self motivator to begin with. You're also completely correct in identifying statements such as "lol, you suck" as a waste of time for both parties.
However, the only reason that comment is unhelpful is because it is not qualified. It doesn't identify what you suck at. Let me unpack that.
My brother is a masters league Random that could be grandmasters if he actually played more then once or twice a week. I'm a bronze scrub. The other day I was streaming and he, watching me make a fool of myself said, "lol, you hate making workers, don't you?" This easily translates into, "lol, you suck at making workers constantly."
Now, I could respond in two ways, I could become discouraged because I was told I'm bad at a game, or I could accept what is said as true and apply myself to overcome my deficiency. One path leads to depression and the other to being the best in the world.
The more I think about this, the more I think that what you're actually getting at is that you dislike the way the community interacts with those who do not have a high degree of skill in SC2. On that subject, I'd like to submit this thought.
It is more beneficial for the community as a whole to require commitment before investing time and energy in individuals. This is a concept that is very counter to Western values, but one that makes communities world-wide stronger when practiced. Practically, that looks like telling people to put effort into their games before investing a lot of time in helping them develop as a SC2 player. It means setting a bar (in regards to time and commitment to self-improvement) and expecting people to meet it before spend lots of time helping them. This prevents the community from being inundated by those that Dhalphir was mentioning, providing opportunity for those who want to succeed (like you) to get time from the community.
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(For the record, I'm not a Bronze player. Platinum-ish (my bnet says I'm there), actually aware of my major flaws - to be honest I think I should be Bronze for having such flaws - I have the mindstate of being the worst player period)
Deathly Rat:
That's a way to see it but if someone goes near a computer and gets good at SC2, it doesn't apply anymore. All about potential at the Bronze stage, not actual refined skill. I focus on the usage of the word "Refined skill" - because the skill to use the UI to "make something happen" is obviously there (unless you're a drophacker).
Sermokala:
As far as cheesefest-zerg, lol. At best, they're the next BitByBit (until their trick is figured out, they'll win). I mean, even Actionjesuz doesn't only 6pool ;D
As for getting better, yes they definitely need pointers. But, not all people are made in the same way and they shouldn't be told the extreme "You suck" by default. Just give them some reality checks and let them realize "how omg-so-refined-and-so-perfect pros can play" - that is until they watch a game of BW Top players (mind was blown when I saw Flash vs Leta).
Saechiis: (my bad at the misspell)
You still have to give a budding tree nutrilents, right?
As for the "cocky diamond noob who thinks he's the shiz because he knows how to execute a 4-gate" (aka 1-trick pony - all sports have these), let them get a reality check and see their 4gate crushed so hard that they would just gg. If they don't get a clue from there, it's their fault.
RageOverdose:
Nope. You can just not bother with that when you see it and just see it as a way for them to exteriorize frustration. Personally, I get extremely frustrated at my own play rather than my opponent's.
IV.Fearless:
"However, the only reason that comment is unhelpful is because it is not qualified. It doesn't identify what you suck at."
SCV-voice: "yyyy-yup!"
The probe comment made me laugh inside (gotta love the playfulness inside). I still deal with this problem (to a much lesser extent) due to my unrefined play. However, not everyone is your brother, I think ._.
Now, here's the trick. I don't mind it when people don't go all like: Oh, new person, shall help thee. However, just looking at a person and telling them "You suck" (not even adding the "At SC2 bit") is definitely offputting. If they aren't willing to improve, the issue is somewhere else, let them vent. Or, if anything, go all: "There is a way to deal with this, but it requires equal skill to your opponent, if not slightly better". That is, if they want to win.
Going a bit deeper on Intrigue's point and replying to TheSubtleArt at the same time:
As far as Strategy section stuff is concerned, if you accept the fact that your skill isn't refined, you may make the mistake of getting ahead of yourself and thinking "What if my skill was refined, I'd try this and that and it'd be legit!".
Thing is, the "big brothers" who've "been there, done that" as well as those who are aware of the metagame could be roaming around and give you a violent pat on the back while waving their finger and going all: "no no no no no." And it's not like they won't give you the reason why it wouldn't work (if they don't, then they'll have to understand why the other person could get frustrated).
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So is this a skill vs talent argument?
Or are you just saying you decided to be friends with someone instead of insulting? Well, that's good, but it doesn't really deserve a pat on the back.
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On May 24 2011 00:41 Chef wrote:
So is this a skill vs talent argument?
Or are you just saying you decided to be friends with someone instead of insulting? Well, that's good, but it doesn't really deserve a pat on the back.
I think he's trying to make a point about how anyone below masters level is treated like they don't deserve an opinion on TL msg boards.
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Chef:
Nope. It's a "assist the motivated" vs "bash the noob" argument. Had my buddy not had the idea to see me doing my stuff and then ask my help, I wouldn't have helped.
More on this:
On the same note, there are the deluded that think they aren't at fault or think that they are actually getting better when they aren't.
Well, on the grand scheme of things, their improvement is so small it's imperceptible. Maybe they make 10 more probes now. They need to make more. Then again, making probes isn't the only skill required on StarCraft (II).
Complimenting yourself when you're playing nowhere near decent is just counter productive when you're aiming to be the best. You can be satisfied by accomplishing certain goals you've set for yourself but excusing bad play is just... bad.
Being satisfied by accomplishing certain goals (aka climbing some steps in a ladder) = Seeing that we're moving up our own mental ladder to greatness = Looking forward to climbing the massive rest of it, a set of steps at a time.
Now complimenting yourself can come from two things (or moar):
- Knowing that they climbed some steps. It doesn't change the fact that there still remains much to climb, but they find satisfaction in climbing this much already. It's just a matter of looking at things.
- Not knowing that there's a ladder to begin with. They need a reality check ._.
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On May 24 2011 00:49 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 00:41 Chef wrote:
So is this a skill vs talent argument?
Or are you just saying you decided to be friends with someone instead of insulting? Well, that's good, but it doesn't really deserve a pat on the back. I think he's trying to make a point about how anyone below masters level is treated like they don't deserve an opinion on TL msg boards.
I think that's where intrigue's point about not having an ego when you are not good at this game comes in.
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On May 24 2011 00:49 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 00:41 Chef wrote:
So is this a skill vs talent argument?
Or are you just saying you decided to be friends with someone instead of insulting? Well, that's good, but it doesn't really deserve a pat on the back. I think he's trying to make a point about how anyone below masters level is treated like they don't deserve an opinion on TL msg boards.
as far as topics about game balance and strategy, they quite clearly aren't relevant. If the NBA were to consider altering the basket height, would they go down to a random park to gather input?
there two arguments mergging here when they shouldnt. Not treating crappy players like shit, ok fine. But recognizing that you suck and keeping out of discussions above your comprehension (balance, strategy advice) is something everyone should adhere to. A low level players simply won't have any useful advice to give there, yet it happens all the time
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EPT
