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If you recently blew the dust off your octoshape plugin and tuned in to MLG Dallas you saw that live event streaming is not as easy as it sounds. Lots of us are going to look at the shortcomings of the broadcast as a license to criticize. Obviously I hope that lots of things go differently for their next event, but I just can’t bring myself to complain about this weekend’s stream.
Sure, I didn’t get to see some of the matches I wanted to see. Sure, the LQ broadcasts sometimes looked like a stop-motion Lego animation. Above all I want to point out that battle.net would have ruined most of the games (lag) anyways so it’s hard to fault MLG for any of these things. Beyond that I would like to bring up a few reasons why I wasn’t upset.
1) I am not as important as Dr. Pepper. + Show Spoiler + Yeah, you paid for an HQ stream. Did you write MLG a check with two commas in it? No? Well then in the grand scheme of things you aren’t as much of a priority. It’s not because MLG is an evil corporation that doesn’t care and wants to exploit you, it’s just simple math. And if you think you were disappointed as a viewer, think about how upset a multi-million dollar sponsor is when
A) You can’t show your commercials because there aren’t any games on
B) When you do show commercials there is no audience because everybody got tired of waiting and tuned out.
2) I have no clue how to stream an event that size. + Show Spoiler + Trust me, none of us know what it takes to stream events like this. If you do you should contact MLG because it looks like people with this talent are extremely hard to find. Think about it- with all the gamers that would give their nuts to work for a company like MLG you can bet they receive plenty of resumes from well qualified people. You know, people with that “real world experience” stuff.
They are streaming multiple games, some of them CONSOLE games, in both high and standard quality. Live. With commentary. As a person who struggles to install a network printer I cannot imagine the level of expertise needed to put this together, let alone the bandwidth required to distribute it.
3) People smarter than me work at MLG + Show Spoiler + Whenever I read posts that start “Why don’t they just…” my brain translates it to “I have not thought this through at all, but…” The best example is Octoshape- “I don’t know why they can’t just use justin.tv” is really “I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about”
MLG is not a group of fanboys that work at Costco 40 hours a week and then moonlight as a professional gaming circuit. They have a full time staff with nothing to focus on except improving the MLG experience for both players and spectators. It’s not like they exist in a bubble either- Sundance and Lee even went on State of the Game. If MLG does something that doesn’t make sense to you, well that’s just it- you don’t understand why they made that decision so you should probably keep your mouth shut. I know you win a lot on the ladder but you wouldn’t tell a surgeon where to cut and you shouldn’t tell MLG how to broadcast an event.
MLG has taken a huge risk and actually listened to (and incorporated) lots community feedback. I know a lot of people feel like this inclusion is owed them but I promise you that an organization the size of MLG is not obligated to care about the opinions of XYZgamer. Feedback is important and even negative feedback can be helpful, my goal is not to stifle discussion. My point is that if you want them to continue to read your/our posts it's important for everybody to show some respect to MLG, they are working hard for us.
  
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At point 3, TSL, GSL, and all the oldschool broodwar leagues that I'm too new to know about all streamed beautifully compared to MLG Dallas. Sure there'd be occasionally problems, but they were never showstopping like the ones on Friday and Saturday were. If all those other Leagues can do it, why can't MLG? I personally think the answer is that Starcraft is not a priority to them, compared to Halo and whichever Street Fighter they currently run.
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noted, and rejected (for the most part). i'm not in a good mood so i'll leave it at that 
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Hey bro.
http://www.ustream.tv/decoraheagles
Decorah Eagles. 135k viewers with no damn problems.
Everyone that paid for a HQ Stream should be QQ'ing. If no one QQ'd, do you seriously think MLG would have fixed anything? When you pay for a service, you expect that service. You don't expect a stream that continuously says will resume momentarily. The thing that made it worse is that every time the SC2 Stream would go down, I would switch to Halo or CoD and they would be running fine.
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quite frankly, mlg does not deserve any respect, and they arent working hard for "us". they are in the entertainment business, and completely failed in delivering their product. As such, legions of upset nerds who wanted to watch some great starcraft are letting their frustrations known.
im curious as to how anyone could possibly defend mlg. there really is no excuse. the lead guy even made a public apology. they fucked up real bad.
if mlg wants respect, they should put on a damn good starcraft tournament. a nonconfusing format, the ability to follow multiple games, easy to navigate bracket updates, and for the love of god, a working stream. until then, whatever flak they get is well deserved.
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there have been a lot more criticisms (no game downtime, bracket, set up, sound) than just the stream situation
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On April 05 2011 07:16 Joementum wrote:Hey bro. http://www.ustream.tv/decoraheaglesDecorah Eagles. 135k viewers with no damn problems. Everyone that paid for a HQ Stream should be QQ'ing. If no one QQ'd, do you seriously think MLG would have fixed anything? When you pay for a service, you expect that service. You don't expect a stream that continuously says will resume momentarily. The thing that made it worse is that every time the SC2 Stream would go down, I would switch to Halo or CoD and they would be running fine.
Halo/CoD doesn't have Blizzard issues, computer issues, or the popularity that StarCraft does. I'm not trying to let MLG off or say they are victims, because I haven't been impressed with a lot of their choices over the years.
Either way, the only real reason Sundance brought out that message is because they really dropped the ball, and they (or their sponsors) might actually be realizing the viewers they lost and the product that they tainted.
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People need to stop comparing to the eagle stream, Th eagle stream is handled by ustream which can handle all those viewers. Remember when people first started to have problems in the initial move to Justin.tv? Shortly after they fixed it for the people in europe.
Yes they messed an event up for the stream but everything does have it kinks on the way. They learned their lesson, they apologized. Whats done is done lets just try to be supportive for their actions.
However it was very annoying that after every game there was a "STREAM WILL CONTINUE MOMENTARILY" for like 20 minutes. I wish mlg takes in the suggestion and make it flow more nicely and more like television where 10-12 minute is content and then 2-3 minutes of commercials.
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The thing that angered me the most about MLG Dallas, was that during the big stretches of downtime, like in DDE's series that had the 2 hour delay, that they did not stream any other games. Other games were happening, and from the few updates they gave, they sounded awesome, but we never saw them. Instead we waited for hours, only to have the game we waited for end two minutes later, and even then the judges ruled it didn't count. So we waited for nothing.
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since when do people not have the right to complain? Basically your post was trying to argue that we shouldn't be able to AT ALL. Just because not all QQ is constructive doesn't mean that we can't say anything.
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I think your second and third point is severely flawed.
Just because you are not a professional chef doesn't mean you can't say a dish is tasty or not.
Just because you are not a musician doesn't mean you can't say you like or dislike a certain song.
We as viewers of MLG have every right to voice out what we didn't like as well as things we did like. The fact that most of us can't offer any solutions to their problems do not make us lose that right.
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If people start seeing results, then QQ levels will go down. Plus, the logic in the OP is pretty bad.
How does "lower priority" equate to "don't deliver what was paid for"? If no one watches the event because the streams are bad, then no corporation is going to sponsor your shit. I think that puts consumer priorities at least on the level of multibillion dollar companies.
True, people smarter than me work at MLG and I bet they are good people, but they obviously haven't delivered what was expected.
And this: "an organization the size of MLG is not obligated to care about the opinions of XYZgamer." If they are not obligated to care about us, we are not obligated to treat them like they can do no wrong. I think it's great for them to looking at feedback, but really, that's more for their own survival too.
In conclusion I want to quote this person:
On April 05 2011 07:26 esla_sol wrote:
if mlg wants respect, they should put on a damn good starcraft tournament. a nonconfusing format, the ability to follow multiple games, easy to navigate bracket updates, and for the love of god, a working stream. until then, whatever flak they get is well deserved.
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United States235 Posts
Point #1 is wholeheartedly my biggest fear coming from MLG Dallas. Sponsors are paying for visibility but when that visibility is broken, so is what they paid for. I'm really hoping MLG can repair any strain they might get from their sponsors.
All the people talking about how easy it was to stream a live event need to realize that there aren't too many people who are attempting to set up the infrastructure that MLG does for an event. Frankly, I'm amazed they can even get a combo of Halo + Black Ops out in the matter of a couple day's prep, because we are talking about hundreds and hundreds of networking setups, compounded by the fact that you are at the mercy of your venue. You scout a venue with the hopes of it being able to handle the strain of your expected numbers, but simulations are simulations. This doesn't mean that MLG isn't at fault bad preparation, but how can you be mad at them when they are trying to be cautious about their spending -- it is infinitely more expensive to use a satellite truck, that would have a more stable connection for the stream.
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this isn't just about people who say 'why don't they use justin tv' they don't just look bad compared to amateur stuff streaming to 100 people. they are meant to be the biggest tournament in the world after the GSL, if we compare their performance to that of the GSL they are seriously lacking. no other major tournament has so seriously failed to provide what they claimed to be able to deliver, our criticism is not in a vacuum of 'no one knows how hard it is to make a stream/tournament this size' it is in comparison to competitions like the GSL and dreamhack that go off with far fewer problems. I feel for sundance and MLG, i really do and i'm not going to unnecessarily blame but they failed and not all of it can be blamed on no LAN.
also as udgnium said the criticisms are not just the internet failue. there are many ways they didn't do very well
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On April 05 2011 07:29 udgnim wrote:
there have been a lot more criticisms (no game downtime, bracket, set up, sound) than just the stream situation
I agree with most of those criticisms, my point was simply the technological issues behind the stream. I must say the brackets were impossible to check.
On April 05 2011 08:05 Millitron wrote:
The thing that angered me the most about MLG Dallas, was that during the big stretches of downtime, like in DDE's series that had the 2 hour delay, that they did not stream any other games. Other games were happening, and from the few updates they gave, they sounded awesome, but we never saw them. Instead we waited for hours, only to have the game we waited for end two minutes later, and even then the judges ruled it didn't count. So we waited for nothing. .
I agree, and I would have preferred the "Crowd cam" be pointed towards a monitor that at least shows the current live game. Obviously you can’t just add observers to a game after the fact but the event cam showing a bunch of people sitting around waiting (the same thing I was doing in my living room) was not very satisfying.
On April 05 2011 08:35 ptell wrote:
I think your second and third point is severely flawed.
Just because you are not a professional chef doesn't mean you can't say a dish is tasty or not.
Just because you are not a musician doesn't mean you can't say you like or dislike a certain song.
We as viewers of MLG have every right to voice out what we didn't like as well as things we did like. The fact that most of us can't offer any solutions to their problems do not make us lose that right.
I like your point, and I think your metaphors fit with mine. I said we should not tell a surgeon where to cut because he is the professional and we are not. In the same manner, you don't have to like crazy cuisine but you can't insult the cooking skills of the chef, you can only say "I, in my personal taste, do not like this". Music is very similar, while there are lots of songs I don't like I don't tell those people they are bad musicians, rather I disagree with their product. Overall you bring up the discussion I wanted to have so thank you.
On April 05 2011 08:52 rolfe wrote:
this isn't just about people who say 'why don't they use justin tv' they don't just look bad compared to amateur stuff streaming to 100 people. they are meant to be the biggest tournament in the world after the GSL, if we compare their performance to that of the GSL they are seriously lacking. no other major tournament has so seriously failed to provide what they claimed to be able to deliver, our criticism is not in a vacuum of 'no one knows how hard it is to make a stream/tournament this size' it is in comparison to competitions like the GSL and dreamhack that go off with far fewer problems. I feel for sundance and MLG, i really do and i'm not going to unnecessarily blame but they failed and not all of it can be blamed on no LAN.
also as udgnium said the criticisms are not just the internet failue. there are many ways they didn't do very well
I know that we can't avoid comparing it to other tournaments, but to be honest I don't think we should. GSL benefits from two major advantages. First, they have a predetermined location with existing PROVEN infrastructure. MLG is a mobile event and as such must employ technology that can be broken down and moved from venue to venue. Even setting up months in advance would not overcome the difference between permanent and portable equipment. Second, GSL and most other tournaments mentioned are StarCraft (or PC) only. MLG has to use a solution that incorporates consoles into the mix and I am sure that comes with compromises compared to a PC only environment. I enjoyed the spirit of your post and I think you make a valid point despite my disagreements.
EDIT:
On April 05 2011 07:26 esla_sol wrote:
quite frankly, mlg does not deserve any respect, and they arent working hard for "us". they are in the entertainment business, and completely failed in delivering their product. As such, legions of upset nerds who wanted to watch some great starcraft are letting their frustrations known.
im curious as to how anyone could possibly defend mlg. there really is no excuse. the lead guy even made a public apology. they fucked up real bad.
if mlg wants respect, they should put on a damn good starcraft tournament. a nonconfusing format, the ability to follow multiple games, easy to navigate bracket updates, and for the love of god, a working stream. until then, whatever flak they get is well deserved.
"quite frankly, mlg does not deserve any respect, and they arent working hard for "us". they are in the entertainment business, and completely failed in delivering their product."
I see this type of overreaction and oversimplification frequently and it is why I made this post.Yes, they are a for-profit company. Yes, this weekend's stream did not go well. Completely failed in delivering their product (to me) would mean the games even happening or not finishing the tournament in time. This used to happen a lot and it sucks.
"As such, legions of upset nerds who wanted to watch some great starcraft are letting their frustrations known."
Do you mean a bunch of people who felt entitled to something? It looks like that's what you mean. I wish MLG Dallas had featured lots of attractive naked women, should I complain? Trust me, I wanted to see the games too.
"im curious as to how anyone could possibly defend mlg. there really is no excuse. the lead guy even made a public apology. they fucked up real bad."
Now I am starting to question your age. I have seen lots of big organizations make mistakes and tell the end user to "go fuck yourself" and I was very VERY impressed with Sundance's statement. Try and look up Merk's appology for Vioxx killing people, or United Airlines' appology for fucking up this guy's guitar (over 10m views). Frankly I think anybody on any level deserves respect when they own up to their shortcomings. He didn't owe you that apology and since they are offering full refunds (which they lose money on due to merchant fees) he doesn't owe you a second of StarCraft either.
"if mlg wants respect, they should put on a damn good starcraft tournament. a nonconfusing format, the ability to follow multiple games, easy to navigate bracket updates, and for the love of god, a working stream. until then, whatever flak they get is well deserved."
What is the name of your stream and tournament so I can tune in? How about the URL of the website you maintain so I can at least see your XAML skills? You just want to cry until you get what you want- either send MLG a resume or STFU with your tech suggestions. When I read your post I picture a 5 year old in the store crying because mommy wont buy him new Pokemon toys. I will edit this post and/or remove the OP if you can send me ONE link that shows in-app stream selection for multiple live feeds. Even the NCAA march madness streamer (proprietary software that cost over a million dollars to develop see here) made you back out of one game in order to view another and lagged like shit during the popular games.
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On April 05 2011 09:18 felizuno wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 07:29 udgnim wrote:
there have been a lot more criticisms (no game downtime, bracket, set up, sound) than just the stream situation I agree with most of those criticisms, my point was simply the technological issues behind the stream. I must say the brackets were impossible to check. Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 08:05 Millitron wrote:
The thing that angered me the most about MLG Dallas, was that during the big stretches of downtime, like in DDE's series that had the 2 hour delay, that they did not stream any other games. Other games were happening, and from the few updates they gave, they sounded awesome, but we never saw them. Instead we waited for hours, only to have the game we waited for end two minutes later, and even then the judges ruled it didn't count. So we waited for nothing. . I agree, and I would have preferred the "Crowd cam" be pointed towards a monitor that at least shows the current live game. Obviously you can’t just add observers to a game after the fact but the event cam showing a bunch of people sitting around waiting (the same thing I was doing in my living room) was not very satisfying. Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 08:35 ptell wrote:
I think your second and third point is severely flawed.
Just because you are not a professional chef doesn't mean you can't say a dish is tasty or not.
Just because you are not a musician doesn't mean you can't say you like or dislike a certain song.
We as viewers of MLG have every right to voice out what we didn't like as well as things we did like. The fact that most of us can't offer any solutions to their problems do not make us lose that right. I like your point, and I think your metaphors fit with mine. I said we should not tell a surgeon where to cut because he is the professional and we are not. In the same manner, you don't have to like crazy cuisine but you can't insult the cooking skills of the chef, you can only say "I, in my personal taste, do not like this". Music is very similar, while there are lots of songs I don't like I don't tell those people they are bad musicians, rather I disagree with their product. Overall you bring up the discussion I wanted to have so thank you. Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 08:52 rolfe wrote:
this isn't just about people who say 'why don't they use justin tv' they don't just look bad compared to amateur stuff streaming to 100 people. they are meant to be the biggest tournament in the world after the GSL, if we compare their performance to that of the GSL they are seriously lacking. no other major tournament has so seriously failed to provide what they claimed to be able to deliver, our criticism is not in a vacuum of 'no one knows how hard it is to make a stream/tournament this size' it is in comparison to competitions like the GSL and dreamhack that go off with far fewer problems. I feel for sundance and MLG, i really do and i'm not going to unnecessarily blame but they failed and not all of it can be blamed on no LAN.
also as udgnium said the criticisms are not just the internet failue. there are many ways they didn't do very well I know that we can't avoid comparing it to other tournaments, but to be honest I don't think we should. GSL benefits from two major advantages. First, they have a predetermined location with existing PROVEN infrastructure. MLG is a mobile event and as such must employ technology that can be broken down and moved from venue to venue. Even setting up months in advance would not overcome the difference between permanent and portable equipment. Second, GSL and most other tournaments mentioned are StarCraft (or PC) only. MLG has to use a solution that incorporates consoles into the mix and I am sure that comes with compromises compared to a PC only environment. I enjoyed the spirit of your post and I think you make a valid point despite my disagreements. EDIT: Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 07:26 esla_sol wrote:
quite frankly, mlg does not deserve any respect, and they arent working hard for "us". they are in the entertainment business, and completely failed in delivering their product. As such, legions of upset nerds who wanted to watch some great starcraft are letting their frustrations known.
im curious as to how anyone could possibly defend mlg. there really is no excuse. the lead guy even made a public apology. they fucked up real bad.
if mlg wants respect, they should put on a damn good starcraft tournament. a nonconfusing format, the ability to follow multiple games, easy to navigate bracket updates, and for the love of god, a working stream. until then, whatever flak they get is well deserved.
"quite frankly, mlg does not deserve any respect, and they arent working hard for "us". they are in the entertainment business, and completely failed in delivering their product."I see this type of overreaction and oversimplification frequently and it is why I made this post.Yes, they are a for-profit company. Yes, this weekend's stream did not go well. Completely failed in delivering their product (to me) would mean the games even happening or not finishing the tournament in time. This used to happen a lot and it sucks. "As such, legions of upset nerds who wanted to watch some great starcraft are letting their frustrations known."Do you mean a bunch of people who felt entitled to something? It looks like that's what you mean. I wish MLG Dallas had featured lots of attractive naked women, should I complain? Trust me, I wanted to see the games too. "im curious as to how anyone could possibly defend mlg. there really is no excuse. the lead guy even made a public apology. they fucked up real bad."Now I am starting to question your age. I have seen lots of big organizations make mistakes and tell the end user to "go fuck yourself" and I was very VERY impressed with Sundance's statement. Try and look up Merk's appology for Vioxx killing people, or United Airlines' appology for fucking up this guy's guitar (over 10m views). Frankly I think anybody on any level deserves respect when they own up to their shortcomings. He didn't owe you that apology and since they are offering full refunds (which they lose money on due to merchant fees) he doesn't owe you a second of StarCraft either. "if mlg wants respect, they should put on a damn good starcraft tournament. a nonconfusing format, the ability to follow multiple games, easy to navigate bracket updates, and for the love of god, a working stream. until then, whatever flak they get is well deserved."What is the name of your stream and tournament so I can tune in? How about the URL of the website you maintain so I can at least see your XAML skills? You just want to cry until you get what you want- either send MLG a resume or STFU with your tech suggestions. When I read your post I picture a 5 year old in the store crying because mommy wont buy him new Pokemon toys. I will edit this post and/or remove the OP if you can send me ONE link that shows in-app stream selection for multiple live feeds. Even the NCAA march madness streamer (proprietary software that cost over a million dollars to develop see here) made you back out of one game in order to view another and lagged like shit during the popular games.
The part I've underlined is a pretty bad argument. I agree this guy is over-reacting, but this underlined part just isn't sound reasoning. Lets say I have a major surgery, and the surgeon royally fucks up. By your logic, I can't be upset, since I have no experience in medicine, and so do not understand how tough it is. The thing is though, other surgeons can do the same surgery successfully. The point isn't that I can do better, I openly admit I can't. The point is that there still are people who can do better than that crappy surgeon.
Sure, I couldn't run a stream if my life depended on it, but my skills aren't what is being debated. MLG's are whats being debated. If the GSL, TSL, and who knows what other leagues can handle it, then your argument only shows that MLG can't do it, not that it can't be done by anyone.
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EPT
