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Maybe this is a silly kneejerk blog post. Maybe this is an overreaction. Maybe I shouldn't really care about temporary PTR changes. But these patch notes really piss me off.
For the past week or so I've been constantly playing, theorycrafting, discussing and watching mech TvP. My theorycrafting said it should work, my discussing showed that others who had tried it were either doing it horribly wrong or having great success, and I crushed every Protoss I ran into unless I made some utterly idiotic mistake, like completely forgetting to make Ghosts.
And I really felt like I was onto something big. Everything I saw showed that mech allowed Terran to not just go toe-to-toe with Protoss late game but to utterly crush anything other than a pure air army. My builds were largely improvised and inefficient and my macro sub-par, so certainly a better opponent would have killed me before I meched up, but perhaps a better Terran could have held off their attacks long enough to build up a decent army. Terran are, after all, designed to be the defensive race. Having seen Jinro and MVP both use mech play against Protoss recently and hearing constant complaints that bio wasn't working against late game Protoss, I was sure that mech TvP was about to take the Starcraft II world by storm.
Enter the PTR.
Apparently I was doing things the wrong way. Apparently looking into new builds, thinking up strategies that aren't used and trying to discuss with better players how to make them viable was the wrong way to go about things. No, what you're supposed to do when your pure tier 1 army can't just a-move into a fully upgraded tier 3 army specifically designed to counter it is to stubbornly refuse to change your playstyle and instead bitch and whine to Blizzard until they nerf Protoss. There is absolutely no reason that a full bio army should ever work against mass HT. Zerg players do not make pure speedling against Terran and then demand that the siege mode and blue flame upgrades are removed from the game. Protoss do not make pure zealot and then insist that air units should be patched out. So why is it that so many Terran players feel that they should be able to use the same two units in every game and every situation against every army composition?
Yes, it's only a PTR. The change can be reverted, and I hope for the sake of not just myself, but Starcraft II as an esport that it is. Late game bioballs are one of the most one-dimensional and boring armies in the game. At least they might be interesting if the Terran had to play keep-aways and avoid the HT ball at all costs, but now they can simply 1a their way through every game and occasionally press T. There really is no reason to make such a huge change simply because players refuse to adapt.
I'm not making this rant because my race got nerfed. I play Terran. Stim nerfs don't affect me, because I don't rely on it and half the time don't even bother researching it. Amulet being in the game is a great thing for me - if someone wants to invest heavily into HT against me I'll be laughing as my mech steamrolls them. I'm making this rant because if Blizzard keeps up this strategy the game will become stale and die. If Blizzard throws around the nerf hammer every time a new strategy renders an old one obselete the game will not, cannot, evolve. And the feedback they'll get from this change will be largely positive. Terran players will be slightly weaker early game and stronger late game, and the balance will even out. Great. But it'll even out in a boring and one-dimensional fashion. It'll even out and the metagame will end up back where it started, with Terran bioballs 1aing into Protoss deathballs, which is really really freaking boring. Maybe not from a player's perspective, but as a spectator, and Starcraft II was designed from the ground up to be a spectator esport.
I think the bottom line is that by Blizzard taking such an active approach in balancing every issue the moment it becomes apparent that they're ruining the spectating value of the game and making it bland and one-dimensional. I never payed attention to the SC1 scene until SC2 came out, so I don't have any proper examples, but I'm just going to do a bit of guesswork and say that Terran players would have had a fair bit of trouble with dark swarms until they realised irradiate could one-shot defilers. If the current Blizzard were in charge back then dark swarm would have been severely nerfed or removed long before anyone could figure out the counter, and the game would have been left slightly less than what it could have been. I don't think anyone here (except for some of the slightly more fanatical BW fans) wants SC2 to fail as an esport, but that's the path we're heading down. Not from a single nerf, but from this mindset. Over time every new and interesting strategy or trick (phasing, viking flowers, archon toilets) will be whined about and instantly cut from the game before anyone can think up counters until we're left with a shadow of what SC2 might have become.
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I completely and utterly agree.
I've long been an advocate that Jinro and MVP are among the best terrans in the world, and have real skill because they don't try to play t1 vs t3 even at 30 mins into the game, they adapt and use higher tier units vs higher tier units.
I am completely and utterly in shock that blizzard would choose to nerf something that isn't broken, just because people want to play t1 vs t3 and actually expect to win.
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Blizzard of old and Blizzard of modern, looks like you spotted one of the key differences between them.
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Agree for the most part. I believe Blizzard being active in balancing is a good thing. Just the way they are balancing is bad. I wish they were more creative, and gave people more options, rather than less options.
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I understand what you're saying but i really felt that instant warp in storms were over the top.
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On February 26 2011 20:40 KMARTRULES wrote:
I understand what you're saying but i really felt that instant warp in storms were over the top.
Dark swarms aren't over the top?
old psionic storms aren't over the top?
irradiate owning every zerg unit, and the only counter being fucking scourge that die to MARINES?
Marine & Medic isn't over the top vs Zerg in Brood War?
Protoss being able to recall their entire army with arbiters isn't over the top?
Things being over the top is fucking awesome. The way to balance a game is not to make everything "under the top". At least not if you want the game to be fun.
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Have you ever tried to mech TvP? Until you actually try that shit and realize just how poop it is versus basically anything except pure stalker, maybe you should just keep quiet.
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On February 26 2011 20:50 gillon wrote:
Have you ever tried to mech TvP? Until you actually try that shit and realize just how poop it is versus basically anything except pure stalker, maybe you should just keep quiet.
I'm pretty sure oGsMC didn't go pure stalker when he lost to Jinro in the GSL.
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On February 26 2011 20:50 gillon wrote:
Have you ever tried to mech TvP? Until you actually try that shit and realize just how poop it is versus basically anything except pure stalker, maybe you should just keep quiet.
My post does rather indicate that I have. And that I've not lost to any Protoss army composition unless I made a stupid mistake, including things like chargelot/immortal/collosus/void ray or chargelot/stalker/immortal/carrier, neither of which are pure stalker. In fact, I've never had my opponent go pure stalker, and yet every game I smash their 200/200 army with little trouble. Perhaps you simply haven't experimented enough and found the mech compositions that work? What do you use when you mech against Protoss?
EDIT: This reminds me of another thing I forgot to touch on. If mech is so bad against Protoss (it isn't, but let's assume it is), why is the solution to buff bio? If Terran's late game can't compete with Protoss', buff the Terran late game units. Don't buff their early game units so they can take on absolutely anything the Protoss can throw at them, that's a terrible way to balance things.
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On February 26 2011 20:40 KMARTRULES wrote:
I understand what you're saying but i really felt that instant warp in storms were over the top.
Well now T can just stick with mainly tier 1 throughout the game and it will be VERY effective. Isn't it enough that toss has to fight it's way to tier 3 just to deal with terran bio? Nerfing casters like infestors and templar really seems a step back for sc2 as a spectator sport, 1a'ing death balls is pretty freaking boring.
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On February 26 2011 20:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Agree for the most part. I believe Blizzard being active in balancing is a good thing. Just the way they are balancing is bad. I wish they were more creative, and gave people more options, rather than less options.
I agree completely. it's kinda sad but I'm starting to pin my hopes on the expansions and the extra units that MIGHT be coming with the release of the expansions to make the balance changes more creative.
At the moment what they have done feels kinda like reducing the length of time D-Web stays on the map, know what I mean? (although d-web lasted longer than the corsairs themselves normally. lol)
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I think you need to relax a little bit. I honestly don't think that Blizzard will scrap the HT upgrade in the actual game. The changes on the PTR are often extreme ones, designed to see what happens if this or that gets altered. These changes are not - by all means - making their debut in the next actual patch and getting their finishing touches through the PTR. So, here's my advice for you: Go into the next proper bar, tell the barkeeper that you want a Sidecar, drink the Sidecar (but enjoy it, will you?), go back home and embrace the awesomeness that is StarCraft!
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Well....
Gretorp and Axslav said the amulet change was ok! They also asserted that the infestor change was perhaps too good. I agree with them, if only because they are much smarter then me and everyone else in this thread.
The thing about bio vs protoss is that it was kinda the only opening to midgame that was really viable. Mech had a lot of holes and still kinda does (immortals, carriers, lack of spider mines, poor mobility, fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking CHARGELOTS!) and if you do any kind of bio opening into mech transition you get this incredibly awkward transitional period. Even lategame it didn't nullify the protoss directly hard enough, Protoss could quite often just run into your tank line and crunch it (IMMVP vs Squirtle is the obvious reference here, but I'm sure there are tons of relevant examples)
The thing about Protoss lategame is that it was a simple transition. You want more collosus? Bang, just slap another robo facility or two at a pleasurable timing. Or just some more gateways if that's what you're going for. for Terran to switch out of bio it was clunky, expensive, time consuming and awkward. And if the Terran maintained going bio then you slammed eventually into a brick wall of intense Protoss aoe (Several top terran players have noted that "playing bio against a good P is like slamming against a brick wall for 20 minutes and then GG" and "if they get khaydarin amulet you're fucked").
And, of course, If your bio ball does overcome the Protoss army you run into these warped in high templars that finished off your extremely diminished force before it gets too much damage done. Very common occurence!
Gretorp and Axslav's primary conclusion is that the amulet removal will just force Protoss to be more proactive with their templar usage. Want to storm drop? Well, warp some in, wait a while then send them in the prism. Want to prevent drops? Keep like 1 or 2 ht's with each expansion. It's a small-ish investment and it's worth it.
Oh, and protoss also get the chargelot buff, which is nice. Not as huge as amulet, but nice.
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Belgium9950 Posts
On February 26 2011 20:58 GoDLy MD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 20:50 gillon wrote:
Have you ever tried to mech TvP? Until you actually try that shit and realize just how poop it is versus basically anything except pure stalker, maybe you should just keep quiet. I'm pretty sure oGsMC didn't go pure stalker when he lost to Jinro in the GSL.
Jesus christ can you guys please stop using this single game as evidence. Do you guys know of any positions more tankabuseable than close positions on LT? It honestly rivals shared cliff on kulas ravine.
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<3 you Ezikyle. You are one of the few terran that doesn't think t1 should work 30 min into the game. Keep amulet.
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I'm just curious what is so clunky about a tech transition, since I don't play Terran.
Terran can just lift his Factory (which if you opened Bio you would already have for your Medivacs) to an already existing Tech Lab and start pumping Seige Tanks and instantly start researching Seige Mode.
What am I missing?
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Completely agree with this. I mean, I see the point Blizzard was trying to accomplish this, and it isn't a bad one. The general feeling in TvP is that Terran early game is a little too strong, and Protoss late game is a little too strong. So, they're trying to bring both of those in a little. The Stim change seems appropriate - forcing some of the early Terran timing pushes to hold off another 30 seconds to give Toss a little more time is a very subtle tweak to Terran early game that really won't affect anything else. I personally find some of the later Banshee timing pushes to be deadlier, but whatever. It's not like Toss should be able to easily hold every Terran timing push when using a greedy build anyway.
The amulet change is just going to make things stale though. Protoss is going to become even more Colossus-centric, which is not a good thing for keeping the game interesting and watchable. I feel like a buff to Terran late game rather than a nerf to Protoss would have been more appropriate.
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Unfortunately, this is altogether too true.
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On February 27 2011 01:31 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 20:58 GoDLy MD wrote:On February 26 2011 20:50 gillon wrote:
Have you ever tried to mech TvP? Until you actually try that shit and realize just how poop it is versus basically anything except pure stalker, maybe you should just keep quiet. I'm pretty sure oGsMC didn't go pure stalker when he lost to Jinro in the GSL. Jesus christ can you guys please stop using this single game as evidence. Do you guys know of any positions more tankabuseable than close positions on LT? It honestly rivals shared cliff on kulas ravine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jinro also went mech vs MC on Scrap Station as well. There are approximately three locations on that whole map that have "abusable" tank positions. And the battles were never even fought there.
:/
Anywho, I agree with the OP. If Khaydarin Amulet is still removed with 1.3 when it's released to the public, I just might switch races and start playing mech Terran. I don't care if I'm not a pro, semi-pro, or even Masters, mech Terran is doable. Just because every other Terran decides to just 1a Thors and Seiged Tanks like they would with a bioball and lose doesn't mean that mech is unusable. Blink Stalker works, but that's because you actually have to micro. Now, you might be saying that you can't micro Thors, but have you ever heard of medivacs? Why not call down MULEs to try to save your Thors? Early game bioball(so you have medivacs anyways), and then transition into mech. Don't build 8 rax at the start for your early game, that's just stupid. Unless you're trying to kill him right then and there, get 2 or 3. With that, it ought to be easy to transition into mech.
Also, for some goddamned reason, just because Terrans aren't playing Zerg, they for some reason assume that it's chill for them to not split their army at all. Banelings and Storm can be micro'd pretty damn similarly. If you can micro a baneling, you can micro a storm and avoid most of the damage.
With all of that being said, again, the OP hit it right on the head. They're making an early strategy STRONGER and making it even harder for Protoss, when Blizzard even noted that PvT was the LEAST balanced in that TERRANS were winning the most games.
What the fuck?
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The thing about bio vs protoss is that it was kinda the only opening to midgame that was really viable. Mech had a lot of holes and still kinda does (immortals, carriers, lack of spider mines, poor mobility, fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking CHARGELOTS!) and if you do any kind of bio opening into mech transition you get this incredibly awkward transitional period. Even lategame it didn't nullify the protoss directly hard enough, Protoss could quite often just run into your tank line and crunch it (IMMVP vs Squirtle is the obvious reference here, but I'm sure there are tons of relevant examples)
Well actually, this here is the main reason I'm so ticked off. Mech actually doesn't lose to any of those things, if you do it right. I've played against people who scout mech, go pure chargelot, and then lose their entire army in seconds without doing anything to mine. You just need to set up your army with tanks in the back, thors in the middle and LOTS of hellions in the front, and probably throw an EMP or six. This is my standard mech army, so I'm not even overinvesting in the chargelot counter, and every time I've fought mass chargelot I've been able to wipe their entire army without even losing all my hellions (since charge doesn't let them phase through my units and make a beeline for the tanks). The tanks and thors don't take a single point of damage. Immortals do a decent chunk of damage, but early game you can take them out with strike cannons and late game EMPs make them entirely useless. They simply vanish the moment they come in range of your army. I always have a few vikings floating around to take care of any carriers or void rays that show up, which is enough to deal with small numbers of air, and if they somehow manage to transition into a 200/200 pure air army and you don't notice then they deserve to win. And mobility can be dealt with by taking xel'nagas and throwing up sensor towers. You don't need to move fast if you have maphacks and can be in position five minutes before their army arrives. None of this is theorycraft, I do all of these things in every TvP I play.
As for openings and transitions, I'll admit that they aren't my strong point. I'm not patient or methodical enough to figure out the optimal build order that gets out a solid mech army without leaving you open to having the crap beaten out of you. But I'm fairly certain that, if we got the entire Terran playerbase to try to figure one out, we would eventually come up with something. And if we didn't, we can post about it on the internet and ask that Blizzard patch something, because Terran never being able to get their late game units out against Protoss is an actual imbalance. I'm aware that I'm hardly GSL-quality, and neither are my opponents (mid diamond, though I have a massive bonus pool that would get me to high diamond if I spent it), but my standard opening is a 1rax fast expand into 2 factories, and I've found that I tend to get out a couple of siege tanks and bunkers just before any 4gate hits, which is enough to hold them off, and once you've survived any rush you're free to mech up.
As for Squirtle vs. MVP, I honestly think MVP was just playing it wrong, possibly due to inexperience. I haven't bought the season ticket yet, though I plan on doing so eventually, so I can't rewatch it, but from what I remember Squirtle had giant blobs of immortals running around that never copped a single EMP, and I can't recall a single thor being made. EMPs and thors are the backbone of the mech army, you can't compete with the Protoss without them. The thors sitting in front of your army prevent them from reaching the tank line, and with a decent number of tanks and good EMPs they won't survive long enough to kill all the thors. He was also somewhat reckless with his hellions, and lost a lot due to being blunk and getting stormed, but I don't think that was overly important.
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EPT
