Now that a new season is OSL/MSL season is coming up, let's get all that Flash hatred out of our systems before it pollutes yet another seasons' worth of threads. Let's do TL a favor, and save everyone the trouble of yet more rehashed arguments as to why Flash sucks at this or why he can't do that.
Poll: Why do you hate Flash?
Because Flash curbstomped my favorite player (72)
52%
Because when he wins it's boring (29)
21%
Because Flash has a winning record vs everyone (11)
8%
Because all he can do is turtle (7)
5%
Because all he can do is cheese (4)
3%
Because when he's losing he splits the map (4)
3%
Because when he's winning he ends the game (4)
3%
Because there is no back and forth (3)
2%
Because when he loses it's boring (3)
2%
Because all he can do is timing attack (2)
1%
139 total votes
Your vote: Why do you hate Flash?
(Vote): Because all he can do is timing attack (Vote): Because all he can do is turtle (Vote): Because all he can do is cheese (Vote): Because there is no back and forth (Vote): Because when he wins it's boring (Vote): Because when he loses it's boring (Vote): Because when he's losing he splits the map (Vote): Because when he's winning he ends the game (Vote): Because Flash has a winning record vs everyone (Vote): Because Flash curbstomped my favorite player
Cmon guys. Get it all out of your system. Right here. Vent it.
watching a flash game is like watching a movie/episode after being spoiled. sure he'll lose every once in a while just like the spoiler will sometimes be a fake one but it just leaves a taste :S
I'd probably be rooting for him if he started fading off. Happened with every "boring" bonjwa so far (that is, me suddenly becoming a fan).
It's not that I hate Flash. I just don't particularly like him either. I know he's a great player and I admire and respect him, but I'm not an avid fan because his play just doesn't awe or entertain me as much as others.
Also,
On February 18 2011 00:49 Elefanto wrote: because bisu is better
Haha, as a Terran, I feel like this thread is more like Protoss and Zerg huddle room against the indomitable super ultimate weapon, the God himself Flash.
On February 18 2011 00:52 Grebliv wrote: watching a flash game is like watching a movie/episode after being spoiled. sure he'll lose every once in a while just like the spoiler will sometimes be a fake one but it just leaves a taste :S
In my opinion Flash is boring because it doesn't seem like he cares about winning or losing. Winning is easy for him and it doesn't look like he puts a lot of effort into a hard-fought battle. And when he loses, he is not clearly distraught over it.
I don't mind if the player I'm cheering for loses, as long as it feels like they actually struggled and fought hard. There's nothing worse than cheering for someone who doesn't look like they're even trying. Stork in his MSL and OSL matches come to mind.
That's just my feeling at least, people will probably disagree with me.
On February 18 2011 02:42 garbanzo wrote: In my opinion Flash is boring because it doesn't seem like he cares about winning or losing. Winning is easy for him and it doesn't look like he puts a lot of effort into a hard-fought battle. And when he loses, he is not clearly distraught over it.
I don't mind if the player I'm cheering for loses, as long as it feels like they actually struggled and fought hard. There's nothing worse than cheering for someone who doesn't look like they're even trying. Stork in his MSL and OSL matches come to mind.
That's just my feeling at least, people will probably disagree with me.
Pretty sure Flash works harder than any player in the game... He definitely shows a lot more emotion than players like Bisu.
Can't hate Flash. Everyone who says they do, deep down, knows they really just love Flash. It's like when homophobes turn out to be gay. Don't deny your true identities, people.
On February 18 2011 02:42 garbanzo wrote: In my opinion Flash is boring because it doesn't seem like he cares about winning or losing. Winning is easy for him and it doesn't look like he puts a lot of effort into a hard-fought battle. And when he loses, he is not clearly distraught over it.
I don't mind if the player I'm cheering for loses, as long as it feels like they actually struggled and fought hard. There's nothing worse than cheering for someone who doesn't look like they're even trying. Stork in his MSL and OSL matches come to mind.
That's just my feeling at least, people will probably disagree with me.
After he was knocked out of MSL
People just like to make up reasons to hate on Flash, because he's the best right now and not their favorite player.
With all those reasons, you missed the most important two... 1. He's Terran. 2. His fans.
edit: I feel the need to point out that I don't hate his fans. I just find it a bit annoying that as soon as he made his 'comeback' on the scene, everyone and their daddy were suddenly KT fans (mmk) and lauding his endless accomplishments and domination. Oh, did I mention he plays terran?
On February 18 2011 03:51 danl9rm wrote: With all those reasons, you missed the most important two... 1. He's Terran. 2. His fans.
edit: I feel the need to point out that I don't hate his fans. I just find it a bit annoying that as soon as he made his 'comeback' on the scene, everyone and their daddy were suddenly KT fans (mmk) and lauding his endless accomplishments and domination. Oh, did I mention he plays terran?
Good point...haha that's probably my #2 reason besides the JD pwning
1- Because there are so few occasions that he does something significant. 2- Because when he wins, it's boring. He does same 2-3 things over and over. 3- Because he needs to make a room for the Big Dawg
And Hyuk is the boss for getting him out of MSL (was it MSL btw)
On February 18 2011 04:33 Djagulingu wrote: 1- Because there are so few occasions that he does something significant. 2- Because when he wins, it's boring. He does same 2-3 things over and over. 3- Because he needs to make a room for the Big Dawg
And Hyuk is the boss for getting him out of MSL (was it MSL btw)
1) Pretty sure that having the best year ever is fairly significant. 2) He uses a bunch of different builds and strategies, and most players use similar builds over and over. Is Jaedong using a different build every game? Obviously not. 3) It was the OSL.
People who hate Flash are like people hating Jordan or Ronaldo in their prime. They just can't stand their own inferiority, or the inferiority of their favourite player ( i.e their champion ) When i see Flash playing i feel no ressentiment. I'm witnessing someone who strives for perfection and there is nothing bad about it.
Even when Flash plays against a player i like i feel no hate. It just doesn't make sense. Of course if Flash is defeated i'm happy but that doesn't mean i hate him. No i'm just cheering for the other player.
flash rly ive seen alot of gamers but he is one of those who just stand out from the rest. Hes a complete player. Prob the best progamer ive seen out of all progamers from all games. He has it all.
On February 18 2011 04:33 Djagulingu wrote: 1- Because there are so few occasions that he does something significant. 2- Because when he wins, it's boring. He does same 2-3 things over and over. 3- Because he needs to make a room for the Big Dawg
And Hyuk is the boss for getting him out of MSL (was it MSL btw)
1) Pretty sure that having the best year ever is fairly significant. 2) He uses a bunch of different builds and strategies, and most players use similar builds over and over. Is Jaedong using a different build every game? Obviously not. 3) It was the OSL.
1- Fuck best year. I want pimp plays, not %80 win loss ratio. That's why i will ALWAYS pick HiyA over Flash, ZerO over Jaedong (and all other SKT Zergs over Jaedong as well) and Kal over Stork (lol this is controversial, but I'm a fan of Stars and STX, so i don't like SBG that much, but his last game against Flash was totally awesome, watch it). 2- He uses 1 single build in TvP. 2 builds in TvZ with 2nd one being used for 5% of the time. I never could resist sleeping in a Flash TvT, so I don't know what he does there. 3- He doesn't make room for the Big Dawg.
1. ANNOYING FANS 2. 14cc'ing like crazy in tvt and tvz. Its the greediest viable opener in starcraft, and its essentially a BO Win. 3. Rax CC in TvP: super greedy build that lets terran get both natural and third before protoss. 4. Playing Terran (Progaming's strongest race) 5. Abusive as hell late game tvz. Basically, any game that goes past 30 minutes with terran on 4 base is going to be autowin for the terran. 6. No emotion. He's mildy happy when he wins, slightly disappointed when he loses. No anger, no sadness, no rage. Boring.
Because he regularly curbstomps BaBy. Also because he doesn't really seem to have a personality, he's just a robot who plays immaculate Starcraft. Sure, it's pretty to watch, but it gets so boring.
However, every time he beats Bisu he redeems himself a little
On February 18 2011 06:41 iamho wrote: 1. ANNOYING FANS 2. 14cc'ing like crazy in tvt and tvz. Its the greediest viable opener in starcraft, and its essentially a BO Win. 3. Rax CC in TvP: super greedy build that lets terran get both natural and third before protoss. 4. Playing Terran (Progaming's strongest race) 5. Abusive as hell late game tvz. Basically, any game that goes past 30 minutes with terran on 4 base is going to be autowin for the terran. 6. No emotion. He's mildy happy when he wins, slightly disappointed when he loses. No anger, no sadness, no rage. Boring.
2) greedier than 12 nex? 4) over the past 3 years terran has had the least amount of different osl/msl finalists, so i'm not sure why you say it's the strongest race. 6) this couldn't be further from the truth.
Also because he doesn't really seem to have a personality
Yep, I thought in the same way due to his PC interviews. But it seems like in real life he is quite cheerful and easy-going person. There are a lot of pros who are friendly with him, so it looks like he just dosnt want trash talk like Stork =)
Baby makes me sad. He is such a prodigy kid and still can't show best of his. Current T scene is crumbled, we need more good T players.
Flash has used so many builds this year, the turtle and push no longer applies. His style is boring not because he does the same thing over and over again, but because he utterly destroys his opponents. Who likes watching a one-sided beat-down?
However, when the opponent is on equal standing with Flash, at least for a particular game, then you get a ridiculous display. Zero vs Flash? Fantasy vs Flash? Those were spectacular.
On February 18 2011 06:41 iamho wrote: 1. ANNOYING FANS 2. 14cc'ing like crazy in tvt and tvz. Its the greediest viable opener in starcraft, and its essentially a BO Win. 3. Rax CC in TvP: super greedy build that lets terran get both natural and third before protoss. 4. Playing Terran (Progaming's strongest race) 5. Abusive as hell late game tvz. Basically, any game that goes past 30 minutes with terran on 4 base is going to be autowin for the terran. 6. No emotion. He's mildy happy when he wins, slightly disappointed when he loses. No anger, no sadness, no rage. Boring.
1) All top players have fans that annoy other people. 2) He doesn't 14 CC that often, and protoss players 12 nexus against him all the time. Incidentally, he beats other terran players who 14 CC against him when he doesn't, and other terran players who 14 CC against other races lose all the time. 3) This is the same as your last point. The whole point of the game is to get an advantage. You're basically saying "He does stuff to win, so I hate him." 4) If it weren't for Flash, nobody would say that. Instead, people would be bitching about zerg being overpowered. 5) This is just plain untrue, and you're just repeating yourself again. Ever heard of Flash vs Jaedong on Tau Cross in the WCG? 6) He shows more emotion than many players. Bisu, for example, never shows any emotion. Or Stork after losing to Fantasy. Look at his OSL win over Movie.
People hate Flash because he's better than their favourite player which automatically makes him the villain (aka the "emotionless robot", the "turtler", the "cheeser", the "reason why terran is OP").
Me, I think he's a baller for being so damn good in every aspect of the game. He's the player who comes closest to perfection in Starcraft terms.
Because he can stomp every single player on STX with his mousehand tied behind his back.
He is so good that it is a pleasure to watch (when not playing STX). Still, I was laughing when he GG'd to Ssak and Classic.
Any game where Flash plays at his best and the opponent can give him run for his money, sometimes beating him, easily qualifies for best game of the year. (JD v Flash at Tau Cross comes to mind)
On February 18 2011 05:20 Boblion wrote: People who hate Flash are like people hating Jordan or Ronaldo in their prime. They just can't stand their own inferiority, or the inferiority of their favourite player ( i.e their champion ) When i see Flash playing i feel no ressentiment. I'm witnessing someone who strives for perfection and there is nothing bad about it.
Even when Flash plays against a player i like i feel no hate. It just doesn't make sense. Of course if Flash is defeated i'm happy but that doesn't mean i hate him. No i'm just cheering for the other player.
Well according to the poll, 47% of people are just butthurt. There should be a second poll to see which players they are butthurt for. I'm guessing 70% Bisu fans, 20% JD fans, 10% are just team fans. Stork fans like me are baller and don't get butthurt but savour the privilege to see the best BW player ever because Stork fans like me appreciate amazing play (and we like silvers, so np Flash).
I love Flash but his fans (at least on TL) are at LEAST as bad as the raging Bisu fanboys. Honestly if i had respectable mechanics my play would resemble Flash (strategy-wise). Flash is great to watch at all times really, no real reason to hate him.
On February 21 2011 09:24 xMiragex wrote: I love Flash but his fans (at least on TL) are at LEAST as bad as the raging Bisu fanboys. Honestly if i had respectable mechanics my play would resemble Flash (strategy-wise). Flash is great to watch at all times really, no real reason to hate him.
??? Flash is one of the best strategic players ever... You think he's that good from pure mechanics?
On February 21 2011 09:24 xMiragex wrote: I love Flash but his fans (at least on TL) are at LEAST as bad as the raging Bisu fanboys. Honestly if i had respectable mechanics my play would resemble Flash (strategy-wise). Flash is great to watch at all times really, no real reason to hate him.
??? Flash is one of the best strategic players ever... You think he's that good from pure mechanics?
i have no idea how you infer that from my post. My mechanics are terribad, therefore my play can't resemble his no matter what at the level im at.
On February 21 2011 14:00 Turgid wrote: Yeah but it sounds like you're saying that you're as good as him, strategically. That's a bold claim.
Similar style =/= similar decision on the fly. Its not impossible for any player (low or high level) to have a similar approach to the game. Just for simplicity's sake, i'd do 14cc, 1rax FE, or bunker rush in similar instances and vs certain opponents as well but it doesn't mean i'd know when to split the map, make a specific timing push he does, etc.
i dont hate him... but because i love this, ill give an option...
I remember somewhere in this thread that this guy (flamewheel maybe???) said something on the lines of "everytime i watch jaedong win EVERY SINGLE TIME, i get this horrendous feeling to throw my computer into the trash... i then remember getting this feeling while watching savior play back in 2006, NO ONE COULD STOP HIM!!!"
On February 21 2011 14:00 Turgid wrote: Yeah but it sounds like you're saying that you're as good as him, strategically. That's a bold claim.
Similar style =/= similar decision on the fly. Its not impossible for any player (low or high level) to have a similar approach to the game. Just for simplicity's sake, i'd do 14cc, 1rax FE, or bunker rush in similar instances and vs certain opponents as well but it doesn't mean i'd know when to split the map, make a specific timing push he does, etc.
Oh, it wasn't clear that's what you meant. I see now.
Hating Flash is a-ok, but I do get annoyed when people try to pull the "Flash does the same thing all the time" card. That's complete bullshit, Flash is one of the most varied players in all matchups these days.
I also have an illogical dislike for Bisu, but I don't pretend there's some actual objective reason behind it. I'm just an anti-fan of his, no reason needed.
So is it strange of me to just be excited about players in general? I think all the TBLS are totally awesome, I think Hydra is awesome, I think Baby is awesome, I think Kal is awesome, etc... I root for every single player in one way or another. Even guys like oDin or Grape, I just want them to do well.
I voted "because he has a winning record vs everyone". When Flash has a Proleague game versus an opponent who is not Jaedong, Stork, or one of his other rivals, most of the time I correctly assume he will win the game. The opponent might gain a significant advantage, but Flash ultimately wins in the end. It feels as though most of his games have an outcome before they begin. Flash is a figure associated with the negative result, boredom.
He's the reason why I stopped watching/playing SC for a full year. When he beat Jaedong 3-0 last year I went into a depression and stopped watching SC.
On March 07 2011 14:44 iPood wrote: He's the reason why I stopped watching/playing SC for a full year. When he beat Jaedong 3-0 last year I went into a depression and stopped watching SC.
.. there are so many amazing players to watch not only flash is crazy And many people forget that individual leagues are different then proleague.
Flash caused 9/11 and sunk the titanic. He also traveled back in time dressed as a rabbi to wedgie Hitler which started WW2. He also has a diet of babies and puppies.
He also killed batman's parents. True facts... heard of a friend of a friend of mine.
But the worst thing is... he plays turtle terran and manipulated a whole generation of terrans into also adopting turtle terran.
On February 21 2011 15:34 Turgid wrote: So is it strange of me to just be excited about players in general? I think all the TBLS are totally awesome, I think Hydra is awesome, I think Baby is awesome, I think Kal is awesome, etc... I root for every single player in one way or another. Even guys like oDin or Grape, I just want them to do well.
Then you will always, always be a sad fan. For there to be a winner, there has to be a loser. For every champion... there are rubbish stepping stones.
Because Flash is boring to me, not neccesarily how he does ingame(In fact, his TvZ match against Hyun was nothing short of amazing with multipronged drop attacks etc).
But the guy has nothing which appeals to me outside of the gameplay that he does. That, and I am not sure(correct me on this if its not true) but it seems like Flash plays ALOT of TvT's in the leagues(I might be wrong)and they are........boring. Because most of the Flash wins, you know the result but its going to take ~30-40 minutes before its over.
From TLPD
vT: 140-47 (74.87%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W W W W W.
He wins every single one but it takes 30-40 min That and he beat Jaedong, my favorite player atm:<.
On March 10 2011 08:20 Kipsate wrote: Because Flash is boring to me, not neccesarily how he does ingame(In fact, his TvZ match against Hyun was nothing short of amazing with multipronged drop attacks etc).
But the guy has nothing which appeals to me outside of the gameplay that he does. That, and I am not sure(correct me on this if its not true) but it seems like Flash plays ALOT of TvT's in the leagues(I might be wrong)and they are........boring. Because most of the Flash wins, you know the result but its going to take ~30-40 minutes before its over.
From TLPD
vT: 140-47 (74.87%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W W W W W.
He wins every single one but it takes 30-40 min That and he beat Jaedong, my favorite player atm:<.
Winners league currently:
I count: 13 TvTs 8 TvP's 5 TvZ
How can you even blame Flash for playing TvT in WL when the only reason he does so is because his opponents are trying to tire him out, not because he wanted to or planned to do so?
On March 10 2011 08:20 Kipsate wrote: Because Flash is boring to me, not neccesarily how he does ingame(In fact, his TvZ match against Hyun was nothing short of amazing with multipronged drop attacks etc).
But the guy has nothing which appeals to me outside of the gameplay that he does. That, and I am not sure(correct me on this if its not true) but it seems like Flash plays ALOT of TvT's in the leagues(I might be wrong)and they are........boring. Because most of the Flash wins, you know the result but its going to take ~30-40 minutes before its over.
From TLPD
vT: 140-47 (74.87%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W W W W W.
He wins every single one but it takes 30-40 min That and he beat Jaedong, my favorite player atm:<.
Winners league currently:
I count: 13 TvTs 8 TvP's 5 TvZ
How can you even blame Flash for playing TvT in WL when the only reason he does so is because his opponents are trying to tire him out, not because he wanted to or planned to do so?
I can't blame him for it, but it still makes him boring to me, because all he has to do is play TvT due to his opponents.
I hate Flash because I don't enjoy games with foregone conclusions. Just like you don't particularly find enjoyment in playing games against friends much worse than you in that you can do whatever and still win. Every game with Flash is just him killing his opponent in some variety of ways. Starcraft was more interesting to watch before he wasn't dominating.
On February 18 2011 01:39 IntoTheWow wrote: Because of his fans?
Wait how does that even make sense lol
to be fair, i'm pretty sure that's why i hate Bisu
that is also more or less why i hate bisu
hate flash because many games are boring turtling. that, and up until recently the same player (well, jaedong occasionally, but still) winning all the time makes for less interesting tournaments
On March 21 2011 06:40 Ecrilon wrote: I hate Flash because I don't enjoy games with foregone conclusions. Just like you don't particularly find enjoyment in playing games against friends much worse than you in that you can do whatever and still win. Every game with Flash is just him killing his opponent in some variety of ways. Starcraft was more interesting to watch before he wasn't dominating.
Funny, I thought most periods of BW history have had some kind of bonjwa to rule the day, and if what people say about them is any indication, they seemed even more invincible than Flash.
On March 21 2011 06:40 Ecrilon wrote: I hate Flash because I don't enjoy games with foregone conclusions. Just like you don't particularly find enjoyment in playing games against friends much worse than you in that you can do whatever and still win. Every game with Flash is just him killing his opponent in some variety of ways. Starcraft was more interesting to watch before he wasn't dominating.
Funny, I thought most periods of BW history have had some kind of bonjwa to rule the day, and if what people say about them is any indication, they seemed even more invincible than Flash.
Not true. If you look at any of the other bonjwas at their peak, you find lower win percentages than Flash. Most notably, you don't see so many finals appearances in a row in combination with 90 some percent wins in Proleague. That being said, I was never fond of the other bonjwas either. Boxer is the exception, but I really don't see how anyone could fail to like Boxer.
EPT
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