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On February 12 2011 01:25 supernovice007 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc. ^^ This. No one is suggesting that the OP should 4-gate forever. The idea is to use a basic build that is decently strong against everything. 4-gate is fine for this. Once the OPs macro is good, then he can start branching out into expansion timings, proper scouting, and new builds. The same logic applies here. If you're in bronze, you're better off picking a basic all-in build and executing it over and over until you can handle the demands of following a build order, building an army, and basic scouting. It doesn't do any good to talk about modifying a build based on scouting information when the player can't consistently execute a build order in a vacuum. Nor does it do any good to talk about expansion timings for the same reason. This isn't meant as a criticism of new players, by the way. All of us started somewhere and you can get better by building from the ground up, not by tackling everything at once.
Once again. Watch the reps before you post. You are saying this player is incapable of doing anything other than 4 gating to win? Pretty insulting. I've beat a 4 gate all-in with 2 gate robo and the other toss had around 400 minerals left with all his patches COMBINED, still hadn't made a nexus. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4471/OmniEulogy_vs_Zukarakox
Master league toss.
If you are going to post anything that actually helps the OP's learn to play better feel free. However I don't think learning how to hold the golf club will help, because the ball isn't going to wait for you to hit it. (see what I did there?) When I learned how to play on bw, my coach just constantly harassed me game after game until I was able to hold the early game - mid game. I have a zerg on my team who wasn't able to take a game off me until we played 8 hours a day for about 4 days and suddenly his ZvP has gotten much stronger and we go more or less even. I sure as hell didn't teach him how to cheese me or all-in every game so he could win. I taught him how to play a stronger econ game, how to harass, and how to scout properly and use the information given to him.
Saying a player can't pick up these skills with practice is degrading to that player and I find it rather interesting that it has become acceptable to tell a toss to just learn to 4 gate and not expo to win games and get out of bronze. Then again... both players who agree to this couldn't even take the time to watch the rep's and realize the player has picked up the tech/expansion timings and knows how to scout.
By the way I just need to add, seems the OP uses 3 gate robo in most games. Tell me how that is a weak opening that can't transition into anything and then they can just 4 gate all day long.
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On February 12 2011 01:12 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc. =) Watch the replay's before you say it is an unfair statement. I left the smiley in your quote  lol I'm aware it's a cruel statement but after playing Protoss for 10+ years I've become disgusted by people who 4 gate and don't seem to realize they can build another nexus.
Fair enough statement, I was trying to comment while at work and can not watch the replays, but should have. If there is already an expansion that is great. Personally in the beginning I had a lot harder time fixing 2-base macro errors over just taking a step back and focusing on 1-base to help improve my game sense.
If you spend 2-3 practice games working on only constantly making probes while doing your build you start to ingrain that cadence and get a game sense for it. You also see how other mistakes like supply block, stop you from doing this well.
Then spend 2-3 games working on not getting supply blocked on 1-base and building just when you need it. Again you are developing a basic game sense.
Then spend 2-3 games making sure you get your production buildings down exactly when you have the minerals to build them.
etc.
This done within a simple T1.5 build takes away the "what units should I get" and when should I expand questions. It starts to show what it feels like spending all your money off of one base.
The extensions into multiple bases then becomes somewhat more obvious, because fundamentals to work off of have been systematically developed.
The comment about playing like Tiger Woods was a very good analogy. Skill sets are learned by practicing the building blocks within a simple framework. That was my intent with recommending going back to a simple "all-in" type build for mechanics refinement.
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On February 12 2011 01:43 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 01:25 supernovice007 wrote:On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc. ^^ This. No one is suggesting that the OP should 4-gate forever. The idea is to use a basic build that is decently strong against everything. 4-gate is fine for this. Once the OPs macro is good, then he can start branching out into expansion timings, proper scouting, and new builds. The same logic applies here. If you're in bronze, you're better off picking a basic all-in build and executing it over and over until you can handle the demands of following a build order, building an army, and basic scouting. It doesn't do any good to talk about modifying a build based on scouting information when the player can't consistently execute a build order in a vacuum. Nor does it do any good to talk about expansion timings for the same reason. This isn't meant as a criticism of new players, by the way. All of us started somewhere and you can get better by building from the ground up, not by tackling everything at once. Once again. Watch the reps before you post. You are saying this player is incapable of doing anything other than 4 gating to win? Pretty insulting. I've beat a 4 gate all-in with 2 gate robo and the other toss had around 400 minerals left with all his patches COMBINED, still hadn't made a nexus. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4471/OmniEulogy_vs_ZukarakoxMaster league toss. If you are going to post anything that actually helps the OP's learn to play better feel free. However I don't think learning how to hold the golf club will help, because the ball isn't going to wait for you to hit it. (see what I did there?) When I learned how to play on bw, my coach just constantly harassed me game after game until I was able to hold the early game - mid game. I have a zerg on my team who wasn't able to take a game off me until we played 8 hours a day for about 4 days and suddenly his ZvP has gotten much stronger and we go more or less even. I sure as hell didn't teach him how to cheese me or all-in every game so he could win. I taught him how to play a stronger econ game, how to harass, and how to scout properly and use the information given to him. Saying a player can't pick up these skills with practice is degrading to that player and I find it rather interesting that it has become acceptable to tell a toss to just learn to 4 gate and not expo to win games and get out of bronze. Then again... both players who agree to this couldn't even take the time to watch the rep's and realize the player has picked up the tech/expansion timings and knows how to scout. By the way I just need to add, seems the OP uses 3 gate robo in most games. Tell me how that is a weak opening that can't transition into anything and then they can just 4 gate all day long.
If the OP had a coach and a team of experienced players to play with, I doubt there would be a blog post about it.
If Macro is the OP's problem and several posts after the replays indicate that it is, then a structured plan to improve macro is what the OP needs most.
When learning basics in anything, the more simply the framework is defined (less variables) read this as Build order. The easier it is to identify fundamental flaws and fix them before adding more and more things to be managed.
My intent had nothing to do with what someone could or could not do. It is simply my belief that if you want to learn something use the K.I.S.S. principle first to get your mechanics down, then do more involved stuff.
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On February 12 2011 04:10 Eeryck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 01:43 OmniEulogy wrote:On February 12 2011 01:25 supernovice007 wrote:On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc. ^^ This. No one is suggesting that the OP should 4-gate forever. The idea is to use a basic build that is decently strong against everything. 4-gate is fine for this. Once the OPs macro is good, then he can start branching out into expansion timings, proper scouting, and new builds. The same logic applies here. If you're in bronze, you're better off picking a basic all-in build and executing it over and over until you can handle the demands of following a build order, building an army, and basic scouting. It doesn't do any good to talk about modifying a build based on scouting information when the player can't consistently execute a build order in a vacuum. Nor does it do any good to talk about expansion timings for the same reason. This isn't meant as a criticism of new players, by the way. All of us started somewhere and you can get better by building from the ground up, not by tackling everything at once. Once again. Watch the reps before you post. You are saying this player is incapable of doing anything other than 4 gating to win? Pretty insulting. I've beat a 4 gate all-in with 2 gate robo and the other toss had around 400 minerals left with all his patches COMBINED, still hadn't made a nexus. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4471/OmniEulogy_vs_ZukarakoxMaster league toss. If you are going to post anything that actually helps the OP's learn to play better feel free. However I don't think learning how to hold the golf club will help, because the ball isn't going to wait for you to hit it. (see what I did there?) When I learned how to play on bw, my coach just constantly harassed me game after game until I was able to hold the early game - mid game. I have a zerg on my team who wasn't able to take a game off me until we played 8 hours a day for about 4 days and suddenly his ZvP has gotten much stronger and we go more or less even. I sure as hell didn't teach him how to cheese me or all-in every game so he could win. I taught him how to play a stronger econ game, how to harass, and how to scout properly and use the information given to him. Saying a player can't pick up these skills with practice is degrading to that player and I find it rather interesting that it has become acceptable to tell a toss to just learn to 4 gate and not expo to win games and get out of bronze. Then again... both players who agree to this couldn't even take the time to watch the rep's and realize the player has picked up the tech/expansion timings and knows how to scout. By the way I just need to add, seems the OP uses 3 gate robo in most games. Tell me how that is a weak opening that can't transition into anything and then they can just 4 gate all day long. If the OP had a coach and a team of experienced players to play with, I doubt there would be a blog post about it. If Macro is the OP's problem and several posts after the replays indicate that it is, then a structured plan to improve macro is what the OP needs most. When learning basics in anything, the more simply the framework is defined (less variables) read this as Build order. The easier it is to identify fundamental flaws and fix them before adding more and more things to be managed. My intent had nothing to do with what someone could or could not do. It is simply my belief that if you want to learn something use the K.I.S.S. principle first to get your mechanics down, then do more involved stuff.
Hm I agree with you completely. FGOmniEulogy.751 OP if you want people to obs or to game with you are more than welcome to join us for games or to answer any questions you might have about build orders, counters ect. we have highly skilled players for each race so we should be able to help with any match up. If you have skype I'll personally yell at you for hours while you play lol
and Eeryck 100%. I learned to never stop making probes and to keep my macro as close to perfect as it could be as the first things. Micro came after and then more technical plays became easier to perform. Wasn't trying to pick a fight and I know you weren't either I was just annoyed at the "just learn to 4 gate all-in every game durrrrrrrrrr" comment. Getting better means not teching or expoing in what game? I doubt he played sc bw. -.-
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You put the colon in the wrong space in the thread title.
It's supposed to be (:
Alternatively, works as well.
Just remember, you should have this attitude in every ladder game you play:
+ Show Spoiler + (x_x)O-('.'Q)
^ ^
Opponent You
With that type of attitude, you'll move up in rank in no time!
Good luck!
PS - there's always people willing to help others out. You just gotta find them. This could help you a lot.
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On February 12 2011 07:07 Juliette wrote:
What non 4gate build would you guys recommend me learning? Is 3-gate robo good for all matchups enough at bronze?
3-gate robo on one base would be fine, you can constantly produce from that, and will give a good mix of units. After you are getting that 50+ food at 7- minutes you should pick some sort of expand build and work on that. For a rough plan outline.
On February 12 2011 07:07 Juliette wrote:
I'm trying not to 4 gate as when I do it right i seem to win o.O. unless its a toss that also 4gated in which case I kinda just go wtf.
as your macro gets better you will be able to hold this off with 3-gates or 4-gates.
On February 12 2011 07:07 Juliette wrote:...what do I do against mass void rays  i really appreciate it
Think about what they have before mass VR comes out. Some cannons. A strong early push shuts down mass VR pretty hard because they are so heavily invested in tech and some cannons. The more cannons they have to make the more delayed their VR massing is.
On February 12 2011 07:07 Juliette wrote:also how many gates/robos can i produce off of constantly on 2 bases . without collosus
Check out this site:
http://www.sc2calc.org/unit_production/protoss.php
It is maintained by haploid here on these forums, very helpful tool.
It is hard to understand till you do it for yourself but really any unit mix can win in bronze if you macro well. You will just get so much stuff so much faster that it really does not matter what your opponent does. If you get any 50+ food army at 7-minutes that isn't 50 drones you can just about A-move win.
Don't get to comfortable doing this though because it will only take you to maybe high silver. Use it as a tool to understanding the power of good macro. Then figure out your expo timing that gives you a similar unit mix like 3-gate expand to whatever final tech structure mix you find with the calculator.
Good luck.
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On February 12 2011 06:47 OmniEulogy wrote:and Eeryck 100%. I learned to never stop making probes and to keep my macro as close to perfect as it could be as the first things. Micro came after and then more technical plays became easier to perform. Wasn't trying to pick a fight and I know you weren't either I was just annoyed at the "just learn to 4 gate all-in every game durrrrrrrrrr" comment. Getting better means not teching or expoing in what game? I doubt he played sc bw. -.-
It's unfortunate that you read "do a 4 gate" and stopped reading. I gave my reasons for suggesting a 4 gate and cutting out the rest. The advice was based on watching 3 of the 5 posted replays (I skipped the missed FF ones). What I saw was consistently bad macro. A clue to this should be 4 gates and 1 robo off one base. This is not sustainable with good macro. Likewise, the OP's macro slips frequently ESPECIALLY WHILE SCOUTING, hence, ditch the scouting for awhile. And the constant idle probes are another indicator of bad macro. I didn't mention those in the initial posts because I consider that type of advice less useful than advice that actually teaches the OP how to analyze his own replays and identify his own mistakes. Give a man a fish or teach him to fish...
I wasn't trying to make the argument that anyone should 1 base 4-gate all-in as their sole means of playing. I even stated as much in my second post. My statement is that the easiest way to learn is, as Eeryck pointed out, to cut out as many variables as possible to focus on the fundamentals. If he wants to do it with 3 gate/robo, fine, use 3 gate/robo. (And yes OP, 3-gate robo is a perfectly viable build to hold off a 4-gate). You'll notice I didn't suggest a cannon rush or 10-gate or any other cheeseball nonsense. I suggested a build that requires some degree of macro to use and can be modified to serve as a useful build in addition to other builds as the OP progresses.
I'm not saying the OP can't learn to play and never even implied it; quite the opposite actually, I'm confident the OP can do it. However, he is not doing it now because he is trying to focus on too many things at once. Hence, cut out everything that is not specifically related to getting the fullest use out of each building and probe and focus on that.
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I just got back home and had some time to run a test on this.
In the "Missed FF1" game, the first engagement happened at 12:46. The armies were:
OP
2 immortals
6 sentries
3 stalkers
7 zealots
1/0/1 upgrades
Enemy
4 marauders
17 marines
1/1 upgrades
I ran a test using the same build order (gate/core/forge/gate/gate/robo) and expanded at the 9:06 mark as in the replay. This is my army at the 12:46 mark (and this could be improved):
4 immortals
6 sentries
8 stalkers
11 zealots
1/0/1 upgrades
That's a big difference in army size. I'd propose that my army wins that fight even with no micro. This is why I suggest that players focus on macro only. A missed FF shouldn't even be a consideration in that game since it's possible to roll your opponent with proper macro and no micro.
And to the OP, PLEASE do not take this as unduly harsh criticism. I'm not trying to say anyone is a bad person or helpless or hopeless or incapable or anything else of the sort. I'm trying to drive home the point that macro is the single most important aspect of the game for players to work on when they are struggling in the lower leagues.
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don't worry haha i accept that i'm really bad and am trying to learn 
so did you simply just pump immortals constantly while i didn't? i also just watched the mechanics day9 daily xD.
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Feel free to hit me up on bnet, Ulfsark.345
I play protoss, and can sort of play the other races so i can help you out.
Also map awareness, observers. Don't forget you can make more than 1, they are useful for scouting drops on maps like scrap station.
Also try a DT opening into expand into HT. I find this build to work very well.
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ulfsark you're a baller ty ^^
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suck it up and play more foo!
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Getting better is to constantly step outside your comfort zone and try to do better. For me, it means not to miss any larvae inject, not to let minerals go above 500, not to miss any creep spread, always watch my scout zerglings and the result of trying to reach these goals tend to produce strong games averagig 130 apm.
Do you have some tasks you have in mind which you cannot comfortably do at the moment? You should. Set a goal to overcome them by actively trying to improve during game and keep it on your mind.
There are a LOT of people with 500 games and are still stuck in silver doing 7 roach rush all day. They are fail breed of bore gamers who plays w/o a brain like a zombie.
Do not become one of them. Each game should be played with a plan and purpose, and if you don't have a plan I suggest you make one THEN play.
It can be a STUPID plan, like, pump ALOT of immortals ASAP and atk move ftw, but it is a plan. A man w/o a plan is a fly w/o a head, you go figure out the rest, shit's worthless.
anyways gl.
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On February 12 2011 14:26 Juliette wrote:don't worry haha i accept that i'm really bad and am trying to learn so did you simply just pump immortals constantly while i didn't? i also just watched the mechanics day9 daily xD.
Not exactly although I did chrono the first immortal. My chronos went to the nexus to get the 11th and 12th probe, then to gateways to produce units then to the robo for the first immortal then back to the gateways. There's not really a right or wrong way to use your chrono boosts as long as you are using them on buildings that are producing something. My personal preference is to use one on the nexus and the rest on units. I'll go back to chrono on the nexus after expanding or losing probes to harass but mostly I use them on units. But again, that's just a personal preference.
I think the main difference is that I'm producing all the time out of all my buildings and none of my probes are idle. The easiest way to monitor this in game is to set your units producing builds to hotkeys and cycle through them constantly to make sure they always building something.
For example, I always set my nexus to "5", my gates to "6", and my robo to "7". So whenever I'm playing, I hit 5, 6, 7 over and over to monitor what those buildings are doing. If any of them are about to finish building, I queue up another unit. If the warpgates are about to come off cooldown, I get ready to warp in more. If you can get the hang of that, you can keep your macro up, even when you're doing something else, like scouting or microing during a fight.
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I played a game with OmniEulogy who's also a baller btw and did, okay? ^^
I've been learning 4 nexus 5robo and 6stargate (and maybe forge if i have some at the time instead of stargates) so i'm getting used to the reach. 3gate robo -> expand -> 2 robo collosus is like, awesome so i'm gonna try to learn that and hold 4gates off eventually in pvp.
@evan those people with 2300 bronze in my league make me scared
@supernovice i'm liking 10/14 boost (after pylon, after assim) and then the rest on my robo. I always seem to forget my boosts
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On February 13 2011 08:34 Juliette wrote:@evan those people with 2300 bronze in my league make me scared
why? Just play more and practice intellegently.
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On February 13 2011 08:34 Juliette wrote:I played a game with OmniEulogy who's also a baller btw and did, okay? ^^ I've been learning 4 nexus 5robo and 6stargate (and maybe forge if i have some at the time instead of stargates) so i'm getting used to the reach. 3gate robo -> expand -> 2 robo collosus is like, awesome so i'm gonna try to learn that and hold 4gates off eventually in pvp. @evan those people with 2300 bronze in my league make me scared @supernovice i'm liking 10/14 boost (after pylon, after assim) and then the rest on my robo. I always seem to forget my boosts
Macro's solid, Supply blocking yourself in PvP is a bit of a problem but you deal with it pretty quickly, just gotta learn when to take your 3rd/4th bases. As I said earlier you make the obs and you scout with it... you just don't use the information you see accurately but it's getting there ^^
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eulogy your build is seriously sick. I did it to some Z on the ladder, missed the mutas again but i had cannons preemptively cause i was worried, expanded, and won :D.
<333333 he didnt even gg
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On February 13 2011 17:41 Juliette wrote:eulogy your build is seriously sick. I did it to some Z on the ladder, missed the mutas again but i had cannons preemptively cause i was worried, expanded, and won :D. <333333 he didnt even gg
lol it's just an old BW build that I haven't really seen used on sc2. It gives you atk upgrades really quickly and gives you the ability to pressure the zerg and scout for his tech at the same time I'm still refining the build but Damon is a good training partner for it so things are moving ahead pretty quickly as you learn the timings it'll become stronger and stronger vs the zergs you play ^^
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EPT
