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Hello, dear fellows! I'm decaf from the EU servers. I'm in masters and got like 2.6k points. I have been thinking about Zerg for some time now and I feel ready to share my feelings about it with you.
In this thread I'd like to discuss ZvP and ZvT and what I think is wrong with it. I don't want to talk about specific situations; I would rather talk about what is left for Zerg in the matter of decision making. I played a lot of games last week and it really seems to be all the same, because everything forces you into so much (if you know it's coming). It is really frustrating that everything is so repitive. I acknowledge the fact that Zerg is a reactionary race, but to me it seems like that many options simply get nullified by the fact that Zerg units kind of suck.
Wall of text incoming, have a nice read!
+ Show Spoiler +
First off, I'd like to talk about ZvT.
The main problem I see with this matchup is the scouting. Terran can easily leave you in the dark about what he is doing, because overlord scouts can be easily denied.
And not knowing early game what you're up to can lose you the game. Terran has many ways of killing a Zerg early in the game and not even half of them can be considerend close to all-in. Even the different versions of 2rax he can do require completely different counters and unfortunateky more skill to fend off than to pull off. Is he pulling all his SCVs or is it just light pressure?
There's obviously no way of telling what he's gonna do so you have to guess; guess wrong and you're dead. So many of the games are decided by random chance from the Zerg's point of view when it comes down to being cheesed. That's only about the early game though, which is by far the biggest issue I see in ZvT.
There's no way of improving the scout capabilities of the races to make them able to scout something like an SCV all in, so the only option left is to introduce bigger maps. But maps are not what I want to talk about now.
So we leave the early game and go to the mid game. As already mentioned, overlord sacs can be worthless if he knows where to look for the overlords (and on many maps it's just obvious). This is where we can do something about it. Zerg is a reactionary race so it should have good scouting opportunities early on; you cannot react to something you don't know it's coming. Now you think, why only improve Zerg scouting, I (terran/toss) want better scouting, too! - The truth is though, scouting early on is not as important for p/t as it is for zerg.
So what can we do to balance the ZvT matchup?
Introduce bigger maps
Make overlord speed hatch tech and 50/50
Now I'd like to talk about the ZvP matchup, here's where the imbalance begins. I ask so many Zerg I play against on ladder and they all agree that ZvP is imbalanced right now. Let me explain why I think so.
Zerg got one option against Protoss, while toss got a ridiculous amount of builds he can do. As Zerg you will ALWAYS get forced into following situation in the long run: pool first, roach/corruptors for midgame with some broodlords for the late game. Every game you play will more or less look like that. Sure there can be some deviations, such as fast hydras with drops, but it again depends on what the toss is doing.
If you try to FE agaisnt Toss, he will open forge and put cannons behind your mineral line so you're forced into pool first. This is actually huge, because the only decision Zerg can make is when to build the pool/hatch.
You also need to make roaches, if you try something else and go straight into mutas you open a timing window to get killed very easily, because you won’t have any roaches for defense (again, a stargate first opening is dealt with differently). So roaches are a must. Zerglings can be good in some cases, especially early, but they will only eat up supply when you're in the midgame. So lings are no viable option anymore, neither are mutas (to get a decent amount of them you would need to skip roaches -> dead).
What about Hydras? - Here's the funny part; hydras are actually really good against toss, if he hadn’t colossi, which counter hydras so hard, that not even a holy amount of corruptors would kill just a few colossi fast enough before your Hydras will get shred to pieces. Hydras would actually solve many problems with this matchup (for instance the OPnes of the FFs, which totally screw up your roaches), but they are too slow off creep and get killed way too fast, so going hydras will almost always lose you the game. But since Hydras are good against many things you can be easily forced into getting them, just to be destroyed afterwards. So hydras should be avoided once colossi are out.
Since the toss will get colossi anyways (if he decides not to cheese you), you don’t even need to think about hydras in most circumstances. The best way to deal with them is corruptors. However, you will have to target fire them, because vrays (after 4 super-fast build phoenixes) are oh so popular right now and have a higher attack priority if I’m not mistaken (pretty sure I’m not).
So basically the Zerg army looks like this: Roach, Corruptor, you can’t choose a different one unless you wanna lose. So the whole matchup is dictated by toss, there’s nothing to choose left for Zerg, toss already does it for you. So you got roach/corruptor against stalker/sentry/Colossi/Vray. While it’s not really important how many colossi or vray he gets (doesn’t matter if its 2 or 3 or w/e) it is very important how many corruptors and roaches you get. You pretty much have to guess, it’s hard to gauge your corruptor count, because the actual battle can go either way. The problem is though, if oyu get too many corrs, his stalkers will kill you, if you get too many roaches, his vrays will kill you. There’s no such problem for toss, since all his units (except colossi ofc) hit both ground and air.
Don’t even get me started on late game, because protoss late game pretty much roflstomps you. “But decaf, Zerg can insta remax” – Yeah, like that would matter if he loses 20 supply and continues to rip through everything.
All of this implies that you managed to scout and get some actual information with your sacrificial overlord. If you don’t manage to get any information (again, it’s obvious where the overlord is gonna come from) you will stay in the dark again and lose to anything, if you didn’t accidently prepare for it.
The overlord hatch tech 50/50 speed already takes care of that, so let’s go to the just discussed stuff.
It is pretty hard to come up with precise buffs for Zerg, but things that seem kind of obvious are the following:
Buff hydras
Buff Zerg Tier 3 (it’s laughable and also takes care of the undiscussed late game terran, which is really really good (yeah, there’s something like a 3rd base, you should try it out))
Reduce sentry energy cap to 3 FFs (dunno about other PvX matchups though)
Buff Nydus (The day9 daily made me realize that nydus is not viable at all)
Tell me what you think (only if you know what you're talking about please) and give some useful input. I literally can't wait for the next patch, because Zerg makes zero fun right now (except ZvZ).
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The overlord speed and the bigger maps is pretty obvious/acceptable
Buffing Hyrdas to do...what? Not get owned by their common counters of Collosus and Siege Tanks? Sure they could make them better against Marines, Zealots, etc. but the fact is, they are countered by the most common late game units for Protoss and Terran, and they are not going to change that.
Zerg Tier 3? Ultralisks tear Thor's apart...Collosus too, and Broodlords are Zergs version of Collosus, both of which are crippled by Vikings and require good positioning and awareness to pull off.
The Sentry cap reduced? You barely ever see Sentries with full energy, but when you do, it's probably not during a rush and during the mid-late game. This would be a viable buff but what's the point? FF's can affect all races but it is really the PvT match-up where they are essential.
'Buff Nydus'... well I guess they would have to buff the Warp Prism too, and the Reaper, and the Hellion, and the Pheonix
See what I'm getting at here? It's a niche unit (well not really a unit) have you ever seen a zerg use one on an Island expo? It completely shuts it down, for a LONG time. Nydus worms have their uses, and they shouldn't be buffed so they will become standard, because they are a niche unit, and the game needs niche units to separate the creative and smart players from the uncreative and bad players. PLUS the Day9 daily with Nydus worms only further showed that they are a niche unit, and should remain a niche unit, as a zerg cannot effectively use them as a standard.
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Why are people still trying to "fix" the game as if they are working at Blizzard? This isn't the DotA forums where you can just suggest stuff and IceFrog would randomly pick it up and add it in the next version.
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1. I absolutely agree with the hatch tech overlord speed idea. Zerg tech is extremely bloated at lair, and to me it makes sense to bring something down to widen our build choices (burrow rush, etc.)
2. I don't think there is any concievable way you can consider buffing zerg tier 3. The brood > ultra tech switch is so incredibly powerful against terran that making your tier 3 better against toss would totally shatter that matchup, which I feel is fairly well balanced once your reach late game.
Personally, there are 2 major things I feel qould be steps in the right direction
Firstly, zerg aggression is generally laughable. There really are no aggressive zerg rushes that people are really afraid. Baneling busts may win games, but they lose many by failing and being easy to scout. If it was considered possible for zerg to actually pressure an opponent, or force them to fear something besides suddenly getting swarmed by a hundred mutas, the landscape as a whole might shift.
Second, I think the game as a whole would be improved by some small warp gate rebalancing. Warp gate rushes are absurdly common (and quite effective) even in high levels of play, and are almost the only acceptable build (at the moment) in PvP, which is becoming stupid. I realize that things like 4gate aren't actually -unbeatable- but the success rate of 4gate/blink rush/etc. in tournaments is getting a little out of hand, in my opinion.
I realize not many people are big fans of Idra, but when a beast like Nestea agrees, and thinks he shouldn't be winning, some attention should be paid.
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On January 26 2011 08:26 lolaloc wrote:
Why are people still trying to "fix" the game as if they are working at Blizzard? This isn't the DotA forums where you can just suggest stuff and IceFrog would randomly pick it up and add it in the next version.
Because debate is stimulating to most intellectual people. Why do people debate politics unless they are directly involved in the government? Why do people who are not professional players debate about professional sports? This is the same mindset of people who say to critics, 'I'd like to see you do any better'
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Why don't you just switch race if you don't find it fun? I find Zerg fun because it just feels like Terran and Protoss just have a set build and stick with it. Almost everytime I go into a game all I'm trying to do is get a hatchery down first. From there I have no idea what I'll be doing. Also it's probaly just down to preferance in games. ZvZ is by far my weakest match up and I hate it while ZvP and my ZvT are pretty strong compared to it.
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The overlord speed is a bit odd, you are going to spend 50/50 and delay another queen/lair tech when you can sacrifice 100 minerals to get near the same info.
Zerg's are only building a few units and expect blizzard to fix the game based upon the units they want to use. There are other units that zerg has at their arsenal and they have creep which is pretty good at showing the map. Additionally they have an overlord that can pretty much see whenever an opponent is expanding. I haven't seen Dimaga lose to a 2 rax in quite some time, in fact I see him demolish 2 rax's going 16 hatch.
Next time you see colossus/gateway early on try going Ling/Roach/Baneling Bombs. They do quite a bit of damage if dropped in middle of a stalker ball or near sentries.
Also i recommend watching this, Catz on MrBitters 12 weeks with pro's for an productive view about the matchups: http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4678044/
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I got a headache from reading above post...
about sentry, give sentry 150 energy cap, solved that issue, next one is hydras and the fact that you cannot micro them offcreep good enough to avoid siegetanks or collosus once combat engages.. so simply give us the hydra speed upgrade back, solved. Its not like it would become overpowred, its an easily countered squishy unit..
make the upg. tier3 or something, give us a reason to go to tier3 other than upgrades plz?
also its clear imo collosus extended thermal lance is way to good, 9 range? REALLY? its basiclly a permasieged tank that can move and walk up cliffs..its clear to me that it should be nerfed, OP in PvT, PvZ and PvP ..
also roaches bloat your supply way to much , 200 Zerg army that includes roaches are gonna die to any 200 army that doesnt include roaches... nerf the roach however u want, give it 3 range and 1 armor with less damage, but for the love of god make it 1 supply once more.
Its called 'the swarm' after all 
edit: I wanna mention the fact that neural parasite is supposed to(I hate asuming what blizzard intends but..) counter big expensive godzilla-type units right? then why doesnt it? oh ye it has a 5second timer...
make neural parasite last much longer and make it available at hive tech, thnx.
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On January 26 2011 08:36 Ipp wrote:The overlord speed is a bit odd, you are going to spend 50/50 and delay another queen/lair tech when you can sacrifice 100 minerals to get near the same info. Zerg's are only building a few units and expect blizzard to fix the game based upon the units they want to use. There are other units that zerg has at their arsenal and they have creep which is pretty good at showing the map. Additionally they have an overlord that can pretty much see whenever an opponent is expanding. I haven't seen Dimaga lose to a 2 rax in quite some time, in fact I see him demolish 2 rax's going 16 hatch. Next time you see colossus/stalker early on try going Ling/Roach/Baneling Bombs. They do quite a bit of damage if dropped in middle of a stalker ball or near sentries. Also i recommend watching this, Catz on MrBitters 12 weeks with pro's for an productive view about the matchups: http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4678044/
I think his point regarding overlord speed is even 1 marine or 1 stalker is at the edge of the base when the slow ovie flies in, the ovie will spot a third of the base AT MOST
Making scoutting not only luck based but predictable, giving the other player the upperhand in knowing where to place their structures
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err another imbalance thread, read the rules !!!
we don't need a topic where you whine and think you can do better than blizzard
Ps i also think that way but let blizzard deal with it since we know they get in contact with lot of PRO players about balance issues
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I think the maps and the hard to take 3rd and 4th bases are the biggest problem.
Zerg needs to be up in bases because their units are not as cost effective. Since it's hard to deny your opponents natural, you need to take your 3rd base as zerg at some point. But since most 3rd bases on most maps are either really far from your existing base or is extremely close to your opponent (or both), in order to have a chance to take your 3rd, zerg is forced to play *defensively* - something the race is not supposed to do.
This means you can't use your army aggressively. You can't just throw lings at Protoss to make him waste all his forcefields - if you do the Protoss can walk over to your base/expansions and kill you before you have enough to defend. You can't risk trying to attack a p or t ball that's moving out across the map (trying to catch them out of position), because if it doesn't work you're screwed.
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Talking about Protoss:
I think one little change to warpgate tech would balance so many protoss problems. I never understood why warpgates would let you build units everywhere AND shorten your build time. There is just absolutely no reason not to get them.
The problem with warpgate tech is that there is absolutely no defenders advantage because protoss can warp in his production right in front of your base. The advantage of the defender (faster production because units don't have to run crossmap) is nullified.
If warpgate tech would let you warp in your units everywhere but your build time would be larger than normal then warp gates rushes wouldn't be that viable. Also protoss players would have the interesting dynamic of how many warpgates and how many gateways they build and change them according to the current situation of the game. This would also make protoss gameplay a little more interresting and reward more skillfull players.
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On January 26 2011 08:41 TehForce wrote:
Talking about Protoss:
I think one little change to warpgate tech would balance so many protoss problems. I never understood why warpgates would let you build units everywhere AND shorten your build time. There is just absolutely no reason not to get them.
The problem with warpgate tech is that there is absolutely no defenders advantage because protoss can warp in his production right in front of your base. The advantage of the defender (faster production because units don't have to run crossmap) is nullified.
If warpgate tech would let you warp in your units everywhere but your build time would be larger than normal then warp gates rushes wouldn't be that viable. Also protoss players would have the interesting dynamic of how many warpgates and how many gateways they build and change them according to the current situation of the game. This would also make protoss gameplay a little more interresting and reward more skillfull players.
intressting thoughts on warpgates, I kinda like it, it will be totally ignored on these forums however.
;//
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On January 26 2011 08:39 DarkRise wrote:
err another imbalance thread, read the rules !!!
we don't need a topic where you whine and think you can do better than blizzard
Ps i also think that way but let blizzard deal with it since we know they get in contact with lot of PRO players about balance issues
we dont need you troll, if u dont wanna partake in this thread why dont u...ehm i dont know not click on the thread and go on with your life?
you think starcraft2 would be any good without the beta and countless nerds offering their opinion on the game? use your brain.
User was warned for this post
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Calgary25981 Posts
Until you work at Blizzard, there's really no value in your opinion on how the game should be patched. Just as there's no value in how you would design an alternate universe (free ice cream for me). So I'll move it to Blogs.
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well he raises some good points about the balance of the game, but now its in the wasteland
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Calgary25981 Posts
On January 26 2011 08:49 arnold(soTa) wrote:
well he raises some good points about the balance of the game, but now its in the wasteland
There's no value in discussing the balance of the game. He should instead make a post abuot how players can exploit the imbalance to maximize their advantage - there is a lot of value in a post like that.
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Zerg has trouble because their unit composition does not meld together well. This is because most zerg units are short ranged and melee and the units which do ranged damage are slow or do not project damage efficiently.
Balancing this composition with units which are mediocre speed and good ranged with tanking low tier melee units (protoss) or a race with all long ranged high damage units (terran) is not possible for all stages of the game.
I don't know why blizzard doesn't employ a mathematician/engineer/scientist to perform the fluid dynamics calculations to prove this. Zerg will not have good composition until the composition changes with new units or changes in fundamental properties of the current units either with spellcasting support, unit range, or speed of ranged units--something which either completely changes the way zerg projects power, or uses the power that they have.
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On January 26 2011 08:47 Chill wrote:
Until you work at Blizzard, there's really no value in your opinion on how the game should be patched. Just as there's no value in how you would design an alternate universe (free ice cream for me). So I'll move it to Blogs.
and until I work for the government there's really no value in my opinion on how the state should be ruled.
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On January 26 2011 08:41 TehForce wrote:
Talking about Protoss:
I think one little change to warpgate tech would balance so many protoss problems. I never understood why warpgates would let you build units everywhere AND shorten your build time. There is just absolutely no reason not to get them.
The problem with warpgate tech is that there is absolutely no defenders advantage because protoss can warp in his production right in front of your base. The advantage of the defender (faster production because units don't have to run crossmap) is nullified.
If warpgate tech would let you warp in your units everywhere but your build time would be larger than normal then warp gates rushes wouldn't be that viable. Also protoss players would have the interesting dynamic of how many warpgates and how many gateways they build and change them according to the current situation of the game. This would also make protoss gameplay a little more interresting and reward more skillfull players.
That is actually a very nice idea, having the warpgate research result in a longer cooldown for this particular gate. But doing that forces the protoss player to commit to the one or the other possibility for all their gates, because what use do 4 warpgate and 4 gateways have, the ones are a waste researching when you're defending and the others don't aren't effective when attacking because the units lag behind.
Still, cool idea imo.
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I don't think ZvP is imbalanced.
ZvT right now is iffy because of the maps, but I think ZvP is fine. I also disagree that you have to go roach/corruptor. You can open with lings and based on what you scout you can add mutas. Of course, if you see a stargate, it's probably not a good idea, but it's still possible to starve a Protoss using ling/muta because it's hard for Protoss players to take a third just like it's often hard for Zerg players to take a third on many maps.
Terran have planetary fortresses, bunkers, very cost effective marines (which are good vs air and ground), tanks, and repair, which make the transition to an eventual third fairly easy in comparison to Protoss. As Protoss, you're pigeonholed into getting a robo to eliminate creep spread, and it's exceptionally difficult to take a third if your opponent is insistent about preventing it from going up. This is especially true as Protoss if you open with stargate tech on maps like Scrap Station and Xel'Naga. On both of these maps, the third base is difficult to defend. On Xel'Naga, if you choose the gold, you end up being very close to the Zerg's creep line, and if you choose the lower recessed area you open yourself to being attacked or harassed very easily.
As a Random player, I've been excelling in ZvP recently, and my PvZ is still pretty good, but more and more Zergs are learning how to probe for a timing attack with hydras or roaches if I fast expand and go double stargate. It becomes very ugly if the Zerg just rushes to hydras and then timing attacks with the first batch (they hit before you get your third phoenix). If you go 6 gate timing, you can be held off by a hydra/roach push quite easily. If your opponent scouts in time, they can switch to a roach or even baneling all-in. So I disagree strongly with the sentiment that Zerg players have few options, particularly in PvZ.
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It doesn't matter anymore.
Balance seems to correlate with people having ice cream and it seems like someone's father didn't take his son out for ice cream
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when time of war bread worth more than gold, water worth more than ice cream
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On January 26 2011 08:54 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 08:47 Chill wrote:
Until you work at Blizzard, there's really no value in your opinion on how the game should be patched. Just as there's no value in how you would design an alternate universe (free ice cream for me). So I'll move it to Blogs. and until I work for the government there's really no value in my opinion on how the state should be ruled.
I like how you're trying to be sarcastic or ironic, but you're right, your opinion does not matter, but you are entitled to it. So here on TL, you can Blog about your opinion, but it doesn't matter.
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Ultras are bad because of their pathing, they always get stuck in globs of units, they need to be shrunk and such.
Thors are also pretty OP, they do so much damage to ground that they're cost effective even against the best compo, and they outrange broods.
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On January 26 2011 09:08 decaf wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore.
Balance seems to correlate with people having ice cream and it seems like someone's father didn't take his son out for ice cream
There really isnt a point man. Blizzard does there own shit. Its really discouraging to discuss somthing that will go unheard.
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I agree that a lot of Terran strategies are WAY easier to pull off than to defend, but there are definitely ways to know what's coming.
Zerglings at the ramp and a few overlords near their cliffs should be givens. Lings check composition on front door, see if marines, hellions, or command centers approach the natural and overlords by the cliff can see the front door and spot banshees and drops. A Terran turtling into an smaller area is just BEGGING to have scouts placed all around it!
Suicide overlords tell many great tales. Losing the overlord isn't too hard of a burden, and if you've ever played BW ZvP expecting to lose one or two in the early game is par for the course. The huge downside is the speed and the fact that a lot of good terrans will keep marines around to snipe ovies before they see the tech.
Overseers or speed ovies come a bit later, so it's not as valid a scouting option for opening strategies, but is a nice contingency option if you're in the dark and still not dead.
Triggers. Day9 talks about these a lot. Instead of using a supply number to dictate when you put down a building or make a certain unit instead use triggers (ie, pool finishes so make speed. Use next 100 gas on lair and immediately second gas). Reviewing old losses will give you the timing windows for expecting earlier rushes. Even if you're flying blind without any scout this will give you an idea of the possibilities and when to get worried.
Still, I don't think the advice will REALLY solve zerg issues. There's a good deal of balancing, better maps, etc. that could make zerg lives a lot better. However, I'm going to live in the "here and now" instead of "what could be". I'm still having fun, despite getting my ass kicked by people with far less overall skill than me, so I'll keep playing
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On January 26 2011 12:53 Servius_Fulvius wrote:I agree that a lot of Terran strategies are WAY easier to pull off than to defend, but there are definitely ways to know what's coming. Zerglings at the ramp and a few overlords near their cliffs should be givens. Lings check composition on front door, see if marines, hellions, or command centers approach the natural and overlords by the cliff can see the front door and spot banshees and drops. A Terran turtling into an smaller area is just BEGGING to have scouts placed all around it! Suicide overlords tell many great tales. Losing the overlord isn't too hard of a burden, and if you've ever played BW ZvP expecting to lose one or two in the early game is par for the course. The huge downside is the speed and the fact that a lot of good terrans will keep marines around to snipe ovies before they see the tech. Overseers or speed ovies come a bit later, so it's not as valid a scouting option for opening strategies, but is a nice contingency option if you're in the dark and still not dead. Triggers. Day9 talks about these a lot. Instead of using a supply number to dictate when you put down a building or make a certain unit instead use triggers (ie, pool finishes so make speed. Use next 100 gas on lair and immediately second gas). Reviewing old losses will give you the timing windows for expecting earlier rushes. Even if you're flying blind without any scout this will give you an idea of the possibilities and when to get worried. Still, I don't think the advice will REALLY solve zerg issues. There's a good deal of balancing, better maps, etc. that could make zerg lives a lot better. However, I'm going to live in the "here and now" instead of "what could be". I'm still having fun, despite getting my ass kicked by people with far less overall skill than me, so I'll keep playing
You didn't even understand what I was talking about.
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You again, cheerio: I stopped reading at this point
+ Show Spoiler +Zerg got one option against Protoss, while toss got a ridiculous amount of builds he can do. As Zerg you will ALWAYS get forced into following situation in the long run: pool first, roach/corruptors for midgame with some broodlords for the late game. Every game you play will more or less look like that. Sure there can be some deviations, such as fast hydras with drops, but it again depends on what the toss is doing.
You're a moron. If you have only 1 thing you can do there would be no deviations. Thanks for playing. To the other idiot that said the thing about warpgates, ITS ANYWHERE YOU HAVE PYLON POWER!!! Not just "anywhere". I can't warp shit in if I don't have pylon power.
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EPT
