• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:16
CEST 11:16
KST 18:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End3Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
GSTL Returns in 2026!42Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory
Brood War
General
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End Rush's Odyssey Controversy BW General Discussion StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II Best Games Kespa era
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro24 Group A CSLAN 4 is Coming! ASL Season 22 LIVESTREAM with English Commentary [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10406 users

Of Scrubs and Pros

Blogs > Sc1pio
Post a Reply
Sc1pio
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States823 Posts
December 17 2010 05:05 GMT
#1
This is kind of a indirect sequel to my last blog, on why I hate the strategy forum, avaiable here.

After moving my way through the drunken ramblings of the latest State of the Game podcast, one discussion really stood out to me. Kennegit and Incontrol argued over the merit of highlighting the posts pros make in the SCII forum and its various subforums.

Kennegit's basic argument is that people either don't want to or lack the ability to scroll through posts to find out what IdrA has to say about an issue, and Incontrol contested that this solves very little, and that people have no issue doing this in the first place.

In a way, both are right: I skim posts in SC2 general all the time looking for IdrA's posts (I'm using the Gracken purely as an example, substitute your favorite pro if you wish) , and wish it was kind of easier to do so. However, I think that this sort of skirts the underlying issue.

The biggest issue with posting in the SC2 forum compared with how posting in the BW forum used to be (and sort of still is) is not that random diamond players are giving advice that they pulled out of their uninformed asses, it's the proclamation of pro word as a sort of gospel without actually knowing why they said this.

A recent example of this is the best response to a 2rax build. After what I assume was tons and tons of practice, determined that to have the best chance against it one needs to 14hatch. I don't actually recall where this was originally stated on TL, but I do know they said something along the lines of this somewhere. I also know that there's a good reason for it, considering IdrA and ret spend lots of time determining how to play at their best, and ignoring a popular early game allin would be completely foolish.

So it's good advice. Why is constantly repeating it bad?

When I (and I assume many others) were younger, mostly in kindergarten, we played a game called whisper down the lane. The rules were simple: the first kid in line would think of something, and whisper it to the next kid, and so on until the last kid says it out loud and everyone laughs as "Barack Obama is the president" gets turned into "Bare racks is a good precedent."

When IdrA et al. say something, it gets repeated over and over and over. While the metaphor I just drew isn't perfect, as the message often isn't distorted in what is actually said most of the time, often the reasoning behind it, the full extent of the message or advice, and, most importantly, the extent to which it is true is often lost.

Day[9] once said that rushing to colossus is bad (I think, again I'm suffering from the reality distortion field I just mentioned), and I can sort of fathom why he would say this: gateway units are decent, and if you try to tech too fast a terran with any sense of timing will hit you when you have one colossus out with no range and smash your face in.

If that's not the point he was making, not only does that not make me wrong but it actually proves what I'm trying to say: Day[9] said something about rushing to collosus in PvT being bad and I don't know fully what he said.

This is due to people repeating over and over and over the message that colossus generally were bad (again, he may have mentioned this, I have no idea), and it took what was a very specific piece of advice and turned it into general advice which people will obviously find fault with, because a good number of colossus with enough gateway support destroys bio.

How does this relate to how we should view pro posts? The popular argument for a pro forum is that we don't want to hear random diamond players take something that works for them and give it as general and flawed advice.

This is not the strongest argument that can be made. If Day[9] and some pro protoss want to argue about whether or not colossus are something good to get early on in PvT, it should be easy to find this particular argument, and be able to know exactly what each of the parties intended to say.

While the intermediate solution of highlighting pro posts solves part of this, the fact that there are any post in between takes away from it at all: every time IdrA or other pros post in a SC2 forum thread, the rest of the thread usually becomes people either agreeing or disagreeing with what the prophet of zerg says duking it out.

Yhis reminds me of Christianity. According to the Bible, Jesus preached for a couple of years about loving your fellow man (Suspend your disbelief for a moment for this metaphor, and compare IdrA to Jesus). Then, every single sect of Christianity took these relatively simple messages and argued over them until somehow the original message is lost on a ton of people who claim they believe in what he says, i.e. arguments over papal supremacy, filioque, indulgences, and every other major intra-religious conflict that has every happened.

In the end, all we need is a ability to clearly figure out what the pros have to say completely clearly without any distortion. This is the problem that must be solved, not the bogeyman of random diamond/platinum players making up bad advice.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's there are few. " -Shunro Suzuki | fortuna fortes adiuvat
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
December 17 2010 05:23 GMT
#2
On December 17 2010 14:05 Sc1pio wrote:
compare IdrA to Jesus


The chosen one of SCII??? :p

I agree with you that sometimes people take the things pros or high rated players say and don't bother looking at the reasoning behind it at all. Someone will say "go 14 hatch" against 2-rax builds, but the masses will ignore the reasons for this decision. Then when someone proposes something alternative, people will be quick to crucify them (See what I did there? ), just because what they are saying is different from what a pro said at some point in the past.

People shouldn't also be so quick to blindly accept what a pro says without analyzing it and determining its value first. Just because something is great for a particular pro doesn't mean it's going to be great for everyone.

TL;DR: If IdrA told you to do something like build 3 hatches in-base then drone rush, don't blindly accept it because of who he is. Look at it critically, and be open to other suggestions.
you gotta dance
Enervate
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1769 Posts
December 17 2010 05:41 GMT
#3
I see a pretty simple solution: don't read the posts between Idra's posts.
Sc1pio
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States823 Posts
December 17 2010 05:50 GMT
#4
On December 17 2010 14:41 Enervate wrote:
I see a pretty simple solution: don't read the posts between Idra's posts.


Except IdrA might say it in random thread x, and it gets repeated in threads y and z without any contributions from him. If all arguments were self-contained in one thread, this would be possible, but, sadly, it is not.
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's there are few. " -Shunro Suzuki | fortuna fortes adiuvat
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
December 17 2010 06:37 GMT
#5
What about a feed of the known posters? Like updates from proven players on replies to the strategy section etc.
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
shannn
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2891 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 10:02:03
December 17 2010 10:01 GMT
#6
It's a very complicated issue and may not even be realistic to solve this problem.
Like mr. wiggles said. Don't take the word of the pros as an absolute fact and I don't think they see and want it this way either. Except the pros have a better view on details which the majority doesn't which makes the arguments of pros generally better but it still doesn't mean it is better.
So highlighting a good post which can only be done by moderators/pros of some kind would be a good alternative.

fast edit:
but then it raises the question who can be considered pro and who is qualified to highlight someone else's post? Can it be abused ? Yes. Will it be abused? We don't know.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6321864 Epic post.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 44m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 1278
PianO 997
910 929
Killer 663
Larva 426
EffOrt 268
Mind 200
ZerO 147
Sexy 77
Mong 45
[ Show more ]
Bale 38
sSak 37
ZergMaN 34
sorry 17
Terrorterran 11
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1691
zeus157
kRYSTAL_50
edward1
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King100
Other Games
summit1g6208
singsing1580
ceh9688
crisheroes171
ZerO(Twitch)3
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 15
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Light_VIP 15
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV762
• lizZardDota2314
League of Legends
• Stunt486
• HappyZerGling127
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
44m
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
1h 44m
The Patches Monday
6h 44m
Afreeca Starleague
1d
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
GSL
1d 1h
PiGosaur Cup
1d 14h
Replay Cast
1d 23h
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLAN 4
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.