• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:59
CEST 23:59
KST 06:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists14[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy21
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers11Maestros of the Game 2 announced32026 GSL Tour plans announced11Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid21
StarCraft 2
General
MaNa leaves Team Liquid 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding 2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Gypsy to Korea ASL21 General Discussion Pros React To: Tulbo in Ro.16 Group A Data needed
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group A [ASL21] Ro16 Group B
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Reappraising The Situation T…
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2398 users

Of Scrubs and Pros

Blogs > Sc1pio
Post a Reply
Sc1pio
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States823 Posts
December 17 2010 05:05 GMT
#1
This is kind of a indirect sequel to my last blog, on why I hate the strategy forum, avaiable here.

After moving my way through the drunken ramblings of the latest State of the Game podcast, one discussion really stood out to me. Kennegit and Incontrol argued over the merit of highlighting the posts pros make in the SCII forum and its various subforums.

Kennegit's basic argument is that people either don't want to or lack the ability to scroll through posts to find out what IdrA has to say about an issue, and Incontrol contested that this solves very little, and that people have no issue doing this in the first place.

In a way, both are right: I skim posts in SC2 general all the time looking for IdrA's posts (I'm using the Gracken purely as an example, substitute your favorite pro if you wish) , and wish it was kind of easier to do so. However, I think that this sort of skirts the underlying issue.

The biggest issue with posting in the SC2 forum compared with how posting in the BW forum used to be (and sort of still is) is not that random diamond players are giving advice that they pulled out of their uninformed asses, it's the proclamation of pro word as a sort of gospel without actually knowing why they said this.

A recent example of this is the best response to a 2rax build. After what I assume was tons and tons of practice, determined that to have the best chance against it one needs to 14hatch. I don't actually recall where this was originally stated on TL, but I do know they said something along the lines of this somewhere. I also know that there's a good reason for it, considering IdrA and ret spend lots of time determining how to play at their best, and ignoring a popular early game allin would be completely foolish.

So it's good advice. Why is constantly repeating it bad?

When I (and I assume many others) were younger, mostly in kindergarten, we played a game called whisper down the lane. The rules were simple: the first kid in line would think of something, and whisper it to the next kid, and so on until the last kid says it out loud and everyone laughs as "Barack Obama is the president" gets turned into "Bare racks is a good precedent."

When IdrA et al. say something, it gets repeated over and over and over. While the metaphor I just drew isn't perfect, as the message often isn't distorted in what is actually said most of the time, often the reasoning behind it, the full extent of the message or advice, and, most importantly, the extent to which it is true is often lost.

Day[9] once said that rushing to colossus is bad (I think, again I'm suffering from the reality distortion field I just mentioned), and I can sort of fathom why he would say this: gateway units are decent, and if you try to tech too fast a terran with any sense of timing will hit you when you have one colossus out with no range and smash your face in.

If that's not the point he was making, not only does that not make me wrong but it actually proves what I'm trying to say: Day[9] said something about rushing to collosus in PvT being bad and I don't know fully what he said.

This is due to people repeating over and over and over the message that colossus generally were bad (again, he may have mentioned this, I have no idea), and it took what was a very specific piece of advice and turned it into general advice which people will obviously find fault with, because a good number of colossus with enough gateway support destroys bio.

How does this relate to how we should view pro posts? The popular argument for a pro forum is that we don't want to hear random diamond players take something that works for them and give it as general and flawed advice.

This is not the strongest argument that can be made. If Day[9] and some pro protoss want to argue about whether or not colossus are something good to get early on in PvT, it should be easy to find this particular argument, and be able to know exactly what each of the parties intended to say.

While the intermediate solution of highlighting pro posts solves part of this, the fact that there are any post in between takes away from it at all: every time IdrA or other pros post in a SC2 forum thread, the rest of the thread usually becomes people either agreeing or disagreeing with what the prophet of zerg says duking it out.

Yhis reminds me of Christianity. According to the Bible, Jesus preached for a couple of years about loving your fellow man (Suspend your disbelief for a moment for this metaphor, and compare IdrA to Jesus). Then, every single sect of Christianity took these relatively simple messages and argued over them until somehow the original message is lost on a ton of people who claim they believe in what he says, i.e. arguments over papal supremacy, filioque, indulgences, and every other major intra-religious conflict that has every happened.

In the end, all we need is a ability to clearly figure out what the pros have to say completely clearly without any distortion. This is the problem that must be solved, not the bogeyman of random diamond/platinum players making up bad advice.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's there are few. " -Shunro Suzuki | fortuna fortes adiuvat
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
December 17 2010 05:23 GMT
#2
On December 17 2010 14:05 Sc1pio wrote:
compare IdrA to Jesus


The chosen one of SCII??? :p

I agree with you that sometimes people take the things pros or high rated players say and don't bother looking at the reasoning behind it at all. Someone will say "go 14 hatch" against 2-rax builds, but the masses will ignore the reasons for this decision. Then when someone proposes something alternative, people will be quick to crucify them (See what I did there? ), just because what they are saying is different from what a pro said at some point in the past.

People shouldn't also be so quick to blindly accept what a pro says without analyzing it and determining its value first. Just because something is great for a particular pro doesn't mean it's going to be great for everyone.

TL;DR: If IdrA told you to do something like build 3 hatches in-base then drone rush, don't blindly accept it because of who he is. Look at it critically, and be open to other suggestions.
you gotta dance
Enervate
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1769 Posts
December 17 2010 05:41 GMT
#3
I see a pretty simple solution: don't read the posts between Idra's posts.
Sc1pio
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States823 Posts
December 17 2010 05:50 GMT
#4
On December 17 2010 14:41 Enervate wrote:
I see a pretty simple solution: don't read the posts between Idra's posts.


Except IdrA might say it in random thread x, and it gets repeated in threads y and z without any contributions from him. If all arguments were self-contained in one thread, this would be possible, but, sadly, it is not.
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's there are few. " -Shunro Suzuki | fortuna fortes adiuvat
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
December 17 2010 06:37 GMT
#5
What about a feed of the known posters? Like updates from proven players on replies to the strategy section etc.
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
shannn
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2891 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 10:02:03
December 17 2010 10:01 GMT
#6
It's a very complicated issue and may not even be realistic to solve this problem.
Like mr. wiggles said. Don't take the word of the pros as an absolute fact and I don't think they see and want it this way either. Except the pros have a better view on details which the majority doesn't which makes the arguments of pros generally better but it still doesn't mean it is better.
So highlighting a good post which can only be done by moderators/pros of some kind would be a good alternative.

fast edit:
but then it raises the question who can be considered pro and who is qualified to highlight someone else's post? Can it be abused ? Yes. Will it be abused? We don't know.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6321864 Epic post.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL
19:00
RO32 Group C
UltrA vs KwarK
Gosudark vs cavapoo
dxtr13 vs HBO
Doodle vs Razz
ZZZero.O212
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
elazer 335
ROOTCatZ 84
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 12375
ZZZero.O 212
NaDa 9
Dota 2
monkeys_forever418
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 328
goblin12
Counter-Strike
fl0m2147
byalli405
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor292
Other Games
gofns12364
summit1g11639
tarik_tv6846
Grubby3433
FrodaN966
hungrybox754
C9.Mang0183
KnowMe181
ViBE51
Mew2King46
Trikslyr40
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1037
BasetradeTV263
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 91
• Hupsaiya 65
• musti20045 38
• Adnapsc2 22
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 34
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Noizen35
League of Legends
• Doublelift3336
• TFBlade1654
Other Games
• imaqtpie1059
• Scarra575
• Shiphtur221
• tFFMrPink 16
Upcoming Events
Patches Events
2m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
12h 2m
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
13h 2m
Ladder Legends
17h 2m
IPSL
18h 2m
JDConan vs TBD
Aegong vs rasowy
BSL
21h 2m
StRyKeR vs rasowy
Artosis vs Aether
JDConan vs OyAji
Hawk vs izu
CranKy Ducklings
1d 2h
Replay Cast
1d 11h
Wardi Open
1d 12h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 12h
Bisu vs Ample
Jaedong vs Flash
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 18h
RSL Revival
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Barracks vs Leta
Royal vs Light
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Escore
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
6 days
Ladder Legends
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W3
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W4
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.