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10810 Posts
But I wouldn't dismiss it as a marketing gimmick, they actually do sound noticeably better..
Why, exactly? Are they using a really rare expensive kind of wood that is somehow better than easier to obtain wood, and then messing up a few 1000 times before getting it right, so you're paying for all the failures along with one success? It would seem to me like the making of a violin would be pretty well figured out and freely available knowledge by now, otherwise. What exactly are those extra millions changing in the violin to make it sound better? I think it is a placebo, or intentional flaws backed by a powerful name. I find it hard to take for granted both the subjective idea of 'better' and the notion that it could be that much more difficult to make a violin after you're already being paid 50,000 to do it. I guess what my question is, what is stopping someone from making violins that sound as good as the multimillion dollars ones, and selling them for much cheaper? What is it that justifies the price? You can't just say 'it sounds better,' there has to be a reason it sounds better, and a reason it can't sound that good for cheaper...
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On December 13 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +But I wouldn't dismiss it as a marketing gimmick, they actually do sound noticeably better.. Why, exactly? Are they using a really rare expensive kind of wood that is somehow better than easier to obtain wood, and then messing up a few 1000 times before getting it right, so you're paying for all the failures along with one success? It would seem to me like the making of a violin would be pretty well figured out and freely available knowledge by now, otherwise. What exactly are those extra millions changing in the violin to make it sound better? I think it is a placebo, or intentional flaws backed by a powerful name. I find it hard to take for granted both the subjective idea of 'better' and the notion that it could be that much more difficult to make a violin after you're already being paid 50,000 to do it. I guess what my question is, what is stopping someone from making violins that sound as good as the multimillion dollars ones, and selling them for much cheaper? What is it that justifies the price? You can't just say 'it sounds better,' there has to be a reason it sounds better, and a reason it can't sound that good for cheaper...
I don't know the answer as to why, but the response time, clarity, projection, and sound quality are a lot better on more expensive instruments. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of more modern instruments that are comparable and those are just as expensive.
Because if you made a violin that sounded like a 3million bucks, wouldn't you sell it for 3 million bucks? Making a violin has to be done by hand and takes months minimum. And that's if you have the parts you need. It's not like you could just suddenly mass produce them and sell them for half price.
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As to the above, some violins have different tonal qualities. Some people do slightly different things that make them different. Combine with this with a ton of different possibilities for wood, and you have yourself a hugely varied product, the violin.
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I've noticed that most very high quality violins don't have that great of a response time, and they seem harder to use. I have one that's worth 1.3k in usd, and I feel that my cheaper one's easier to play. Maybe my violin's just special though.
I would think 200 dollars is enough to get a decent violin for starting, although you may think that's a bit too high. The best route is to either get one from china or find a place that rents them.
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On December 13 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +But I wouldn't dismiss it as a marketing gimmick, they actually do sound noticeably better.. Why, exactly? Are they using a really rare expensive kind of wood that is somehow better than easier to obtain wood, and then messing up a few 1000 times before getting it right, so you're paying for all the failures along with one success? It would seem to me like the making of a violin would be pretty well figured out and freely available knowledge by now, otherwise. What exactly are those extra millions changing in the violin to make it sound better? I think it is a placebo, or intentional flaws backed by a powerful name. I find it hard to take for granted both the subjective idea of 'better' and the notion that it could be that much more difficult to make a violin after you're already being paid 50,000 to do it. I guess what my question is, what is stopping someone from making violins that sound as good as the multimillion dollars ones, and selling them for much cheaper? What is it that justifies the price? You can't just say 'it sounds better,' there has to be a reason it sounds better, and a reason it can't sound that good for cheaper...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius#Controversy_over_sound_quality
Also you seem to be under the misconception that Stradivarius is still alive. He's dead, which means there are a limited number of his instruments, which drives the price up. The price is a function of the rarity, not the sound quality.
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10810 Posts
I'm not under that misconception, but thanks 
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I think the best course of action would be to rent one.
Buying a 75 dollar violin is almost equivalent to buying a 3 dollar mouse. Sure, it's usable, but it's not really worth it.
Classical instruments are indeed expensive. I've been playing the cello for about 3-4 years, and I own a full-sized instrument. The cello itself was $6000, and the bow was $1200. Just to give you comparison.
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Similar experience.
First bassoon I played was a 400 dollar piece of shit. (seeing as bassoons cost so much to ebgin with...)
I was about to quit when I got a 2000 instrument, which was great and easy to play with decent tone.
Now I'm playing an 1800 plastic one, that isn't great, but is fairly decent.
If I had stuck to the first one I would never have continued.
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Rent first. And find an instructor.
As for the discussion on Stradivarius, it's the name. Someone playing on a Stradivari violin, is 10 times more marketable in the classical music world, because it is a Stradivari. It doesn't matter how it sounds. I hear Stradivari, I think "Fucking awesome instrument." (Stradivari instruments sound amazing though imo). There is name recognition in classical music too.
I prefer the cello though. 
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Constructing a good sounding violin is actually difficult, that's why good violins are expensive. When you buy hand crafted violins, every violin sounds quite different. The shape and structure of the violin has a huge impact on the violin. Every piece of wood bends in a slightly different way, and that has a major impact on the sound quality. Additionally, the type and quality of wood matters as well. Different types, densities, and grain styles of wood project sound and vibration slightly differently. Even if you have two violins are are willow based, they will sound slightly different because each part of the wood has a different density and grain. It's extremely hard to hand craft two violins that sound the same, and if you get a mass produced violin instead, it's not going to sound that great period.
The issue with the musical instrument market is that there is low supply, low demand, but the people who want an instrument will usually pay high. When you buy a $200 violin from a craftsman, that same violin will be like $2000 in a music store. To find the perfect violin, you don't go to music stores. You go to workshops and try out all their violins and find one that's for you. You can't simply say violin A is better than violin B because violin A is higher quality. Each violin is different so you have to find the sound that suits you best.
In regards to Stradivarius violins, their price doesn't come from their sound quality, it comes from its historical value. Back then, Stradivarius violins were godly. Today, they are on par with other top end violins. They're not really meant to be played, but rather be put on display in museums and such.
So in conclusion, if you want a good violin for really cheap, buy from a workshop or the craftsman.
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The string bass that I own from playing in high school is of fairly low quality (in the $1000-$1500 price range, I think), and there is definitely a noticeable inferiority in sound quality when I play it compared to other, better basses I have played. The more expensive ones have a more consistent tone, more resonance, better construction in general, etc.
To start off with, though, I think renting a lower-quality instrument is best. If you find you like it, you can invest in a nicer instrument in the future.
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Yeaa....honestly $50-75 dollars for a violin sounds ridiculously cheap. I would not recommend buying those since they're either toys, a scam, or in very shitty condition. Even a couple hundred bucks is considered cheap for a beginner violin.
Your best bet is to go to a violin/classical instrument store and just ask for their cheapest violin and use that as a good measure of what the price(s) of the instruments you should be looking at could be. Going to a violin teacher/renting a violin are also good alternatives.
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On December 13 2010 08:09 eLiE wrote:
Oh man, be careful. For some reason, when I was around 12, I was like, "derp, derp, I wanna learn violin", so I bought one, and tried to teach myself the basics, and it was just not happening. I could barely get the resin on the strings. If you're going to try it, you definitely should take lessons. Different story with other instruments.
Actually, there are very few classical instruments that one can effectively teach themselves.
Like others have said, I would definitely recommend 1) getting lessons and 2) NOT buying a super cheap Violin to start. Violins are probably the most expensive instrument in the world, and anything that is really cheap just won't produce any good sound, meaning you probably won't want to play it because it'll always sound like shit.
Why, exactly? Are they using a really rare expensive kind of wood that is somehow better than easier to obtain wood, and then messing up a few 1000 times before getting it right, so you're paying for all the failures along with one success? It would seem to me like the making of a violin would be pretty well figured out and freely available knowledge by now, otherwise. What exactly are those extra millions changing in the violin to make it sound better? I think it is a placebo, or intentional flaws backed by a powerful name. I find it hard to take for granted both the subjective idea of 'better' and the notion that it could be that much more difficult to make a violin after you're already being paid 50,000 to do it. I guess what my question is, what is stopping someone from making violins that sound as good as the multimillion dollars ones, and selling them for much cheaper? What is it that justifies the price? You can't just say 'it sounds better,' there has to be a reason it sounds better, and a reason it can't sound that good for cheaper...
It takes a lot longer to get better materials and put in the time to finely craft everything to perfection in order to make the violin that much better. I mean really, did you have to ask this? Obviously they're charging more for money put into materials + time spent making the thing. It's the same exact principle for basically everything and anything sold in any economy. Sure, they COULD do it for cheaper, but then they'd be 1) out of business or 2) not making the profit they desire for the work they're putting in. Really is a pretty fundamental concept to how most economies work.
I've noticed that most very high quality violins don't have that great of a response time, and they seem harder to use. I have one that's worth 1.3k in usd, and I feel that my cheaper one's easier to play. Maybe my violin's just special though.
I would think 200 dollars is enough to get a decent violin for starting, although you may think that's a bit too high. The best route is to either get one from china or find a place that rents them.
You're thinking very cheap in general. Violins really aren't that cheap. Even $1300 is a fairly low price.
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Just for basic reference, as far as I've experienced,
Middleschool/Highschool playing for fun -> rental or $100-$500
Pre-college prep -> $1000 - $20,000
College/Conservatory -> conservatory rental/loan instrument or $8,000 - $50,000+
Asian countries definitely have the best cheap violins. China/Korea..
Generally, you should stick to rental or $200ish until you've tried it for a few years. Most instruments under $110 are close to unplayable and will greatly take away from the experience.
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Rent one for the beginning.
Thankfully I'm more of a pianist than a violinist so I tend to be more picky about pianos...ahhh...I sooo want a Hamburg Steinway...
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Having played violin for about 6 or 7 years, I would recommend that you rent or buy a cheap violin that is 200-300$. After a few years, you can purchase a more expensive one when you are ready to get more serious in your playing or when your ear gets better.
Also, I highly recommend getting a private tutor. You cant learn how to play violin by looking at a book or some youtube videos.
A case should come with your instrument, strings won't matter, and Most shoulder rests are fine. As for instructional books, get a private tutor and have hem tell you what to get.
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Like some people already said, don't bother trying to learn how to play it by yourself, you won't make it far. That said, if you're considering getting a private tutor, just rent a violin for a super cheap price.
After you rent a violin, you would need a shoulder rest (or you could go without one but its recommended for beginners to start off with one). You can get a simple Kun shoulder rest or if you don't want to spend more money, just use a piece of sponge and rubber bands. They work perfectly for some people.
Also, no need to invest in high quality strings (Red Label, Dominant are good for beginners). It really won't make any difference in your sound at that stage.
If possible, wood bows are generally better than carbon fiber bows as well. Just stick to the basic set-up for a month and see if you really do like the violin by then. Most people quit early due to it being a really difficult instrument to master. Also I'm an undergraduate violin performance major at a music school with a $4000 violin so I do know what I'm talking about.
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I'm not an expert on violin, but I do have an associate degree on piano performance (sort of like a college degree) so I've been playing music at a "high level" for quite a while. I agree on most part with the major trend in this thread:
1) rent a violin, and you can accumulate rental credits which can be counted towards a purchase if you choose to do so later.
2) find a tutor because learning a new instrument by yourself is a very risky move that will end up in failure for most people.
Based on some of my violin-playing friends and their instruments, I think $300 is a reasonable starting point if you decide to buy it immediately (which I don't recommend...). Your tutor/teacher, if you decide to get one, should know where to rent/buy the violin, and he/she can test out the instrument to give you expert advice. Of course, if you do go to a well-established music store, the employees there usually know the instruments pretty well and will give you good advice also.
Learning an instrument is not all about the physical practice. A lot of it is building and maintaining enthusiasm so that you can plow through the tedious exercise without losing the interest altogether. Listen to a lot of classical music (especially violin concertos) - you can probably find a lot of them on youtube, but it's less troublesome if you can purchase albums.
One more thing, it's important to set a goal for yourself. "How good" do you want to be? Do you have specific songs that you want to play, or are you aiming to perform a fancy concerto in a couple years? Some of my friends started learning piano at age 18-21 to play songs and impress some Asian girls. Fine, I can help with that - not too much focus on fundamentals, more on quick sight reading and chords and shit. One of them wanted to be good enough to play Chopin etudes. In that case, crazy practice to get the foundations straight. The nature of your learning process will largely depend on your goal, so be sure to set one before you dive into it!
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Taiwan619 Posts
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Thanks to all that replied!
But the only bad thing is that there are no good violin places here in my town. My friend that plays/teaches violin to younger kids even mention how the quality of the few violins here sound just like the cheap ones online but for a much high price -.-
For that reason I wanted to buy one online despite how many of yall are saying it is better to rent. I still haven't decided what to do cuz I don't even know anymore :[. But I have a friend who says she will teach me as she learned when she was in Korea and she just suggests I get a cheap one online for the time being and get a more expensive one later if I wanna keep going with it. Her suggestion along with the fact that I don't have a lot of money to spend makes me more inclined to just buy a cheap one and do my best.
What do yall think?
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EPT
