• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 16:47
CET 22:47
KST 06:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)11Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns6[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises3
StarCraft 2
General
Spontaneous hotkey change zerg Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) WardiTV Winter Cup WardiTV Mondays SC2 AI Tournament 2026 OSC Season 13 World Championship
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes
Brood War
General
I would like to say something about StarCraft Potential ASL qualifier breakthroughs? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Mechabellum Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Physical Exercise (HIIT) Bef…
TrAiDoS
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2979 users

Extended Series: Alternative Perspective

Blogs > Thetan
Post a Reply
Thetan
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
240 Posts
December 01 2010 21:00 GMT
#1
MLG Lee was on the newest SoTG podcast, and the Extended Series rule was once again a hot topic of debate. I feel that this is a topic people have strong opinions on. My idea was to look at the problem from a different perspective in an effort to help bridge the gap.

One thing to keep in mind about MLG, is that every match from the beginning to end is a bo3. So, we can think about player vs. player history not as # of matches won, but rather bo3 series won. Instead of arguing how many overall set wins a player has against his opponent, instead approach the problem as how many bo3's the player has won against his opponent. And I'll make the claim that an "Extended Series" can be thought of as 2 bo3's with tie-breaking games to determine the winner. I'll try to show that this method of thinking makes the subtleties of the extended series much clearer.

For now, assume regular double elimination without the extended series rule. In the loser's bracket, if two players meet up again, there's a chance that the winner the first time will lose the second time. That puts the players at a 1-1 tie for bo3 matches won. But this isn't completely fair either - it puts an emphasis on the order in which the bo3's were won (player who wins the second bo3 advances). The fairest way to break this tie is by making the players play more games. Extended Series is a good way of achieving this goal. Not only does it achieve this goal, but it does so in a way that handles all possibilities in a similar fashion while limiting the max number of games played(making it easier to explain the rules/manage/schedule the tournament).

Why Extended Series is a good way of achieving this goal in the loser's bracket:
+ Show Spoiler +

*Any player that wins both bo3's (first to 2 wins) will also win the extended series' bo7 (first to 4 wins)* - Extended Series internalizes the results of 2 bo3's. If a player were to win 2 BO3 series, that player would also have won the Extended Series

If a player wins the first BO3 but loses the second bo3, the players are tied 1-1 in bo3 series won. What extended series does, in essence, is let the players play more games in order to break this tie.

Possible outcomes of a 1-1 tie for bo3 matches won

2-0 first bo3
0-2 second bo3
2-2 overall
Playing Extended Series (first to 4 wins) would in essence break the 1-1 bo3 tie by giving: a third bo3 to determine winner

2-1 first bo3
1-2 second bo3
3-3 overall
Playing extended Series would break the 1-1 BO3 tie by giving : 1 game sudden death

2-0/0-2 first bo3
1-2/2-1 second bo3
3-2/2-3 overall
Playing extended Series would break the 1-1 bo3 tie by giving: 1 additional set win needed for leader, 2 for the player that is behind

Properties of Extended Series:
-The player who has the most overall wins always advances.
-All these seem like acceptable scenarios for breaking a 1-1 bo3 tie to determine who advances.
-The extended series rule covers all of these possibilities by itself (one blanket rule)
-Caps the # of games played (max 5 games in the loser's bracket) to make the tournament easier to schedule.


You can think of an Extended Series not as giving an advantage to one player over another, but *only* as a way to fairly break ties if the players split the 2 bo3's that they play. I therefore cannot say the use of Extended Series in the loser's bracket is "unfair".

But in the finals, if two players meet up again, it seems fair (and logical) to treat their matches as a "bo3-bo3" (first player who wins 2 bo3's). In this case, the player who lost the first bo3 earlier on in the tournament has to win 2 bo3's in the finals, whereas the earlier winner only has to win 1 bo3 in the finals.

But notice that the format above is THE SAME as a straight up double elimination tournament. In a double-elimination tournament, the player coming from the loser's has to win 2 bo3's, while the player from the winner's has to win 1 bo3.

Note that the winner of a bo3-bo3 will always have either more total wins or an equal amount of wins in the series than his opponent.
+ Show Spoiler +

0-2 first bo3
2-1 second bo3
2-1 third bo3

This outcome maximizes the # of wins by the loser of the first bo3 and minimizes the wins by the winner.

4-4 overall W-L, tie goes to the player who has won the most bo3's.
Any other combination of wins and loss, and the winning player of the 3 bo3's will have more overall wins than overall losses.


But what MLG does with extended series finals is that they throw double elimination out the window, and the winner of that one bo7 is the winner of the tournament.

The usefulness of the extended series comes when there is a tie that needs to be broken. In the loser's bracket, such a system is needed. But in the finals, such ties never need to be broken in such a way. There is no reason to implement it. Whoever wins the final under normal double elimination rules will not have lost to his opponent more times than he has beaten him *under any circumstance*. Standard Double Elimination Finals are fair no matter how you look at them - there is no need for the implementation of an extended series during the finals.

Conclusion: The extended series seems to be fair when implemented in the loser's bracket, but is completely unnecessary when implemented in the finals.

*
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
December 01 2010 21:25 GMT
#2
--- Nuked ---
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
December 01 2010 21:42 GMT
#3
Why would you remake this?

Every single discussion about extended series has already been made, seriously.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
NrG.NeverExpo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2114 Posts
December 01 2010 21:43 GMT
#4
Yea i was really upset when I heard my teammate had to play an extended series during MLG Dallas, but after really looking at it and seeing the numbers it kinda made sense, although it would be nice to have a fresh start if you meet the same player twice in the tournament. You win a round which means you should move to the next level, but if you encounter a player who beat you before, its not really moving to the next level, its almost starting back at whenever you played them (i know that might not make much sense)

Then again if it were my teammate who had won the first match between them i might be a fan of it, so who knows :D I just think it would be nice for every player to get a fresh start in every round O_O Coming back from a series that was started originally is VERY hard to hard.
TwitteR: @NeverExpo follow me, i'll follow back :)
Hurricane
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3939 Posts
December 01 2010 21:44 GMT
#5
A post I made on another forum on this same topic:
I like the idea behind extended series, but I feel it is unfair in practice. My main problem with it is how it changes the tournament for two people only. If there are four best of three's in the loser bracket quarter-finals then all four matches should be played under the same circumstances. Having one of the series be a best of seven with one of the player having an advantage is unfair to every person in the quarter finals. None of the other six participants have an advantage in their match and the person with the deficit has a harder time than everyone else. Just because two people happened to meet again in the same bracket should not mean that the rules are different for them. Yes it is true that the person who won in the first series should ideally have an advantage in their re-match, but there is no way to do it without creating issues with the fairness to the other people in the round.


Basically, extended series may give one person a better chance to prove himself, but it is unfair to all of the other competitors in the tournament.
RIP CHARLIEMURPHY 11/25/10 NEVER FORGET | Hurricane#1183 @ B.net
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL 21
20:00
Non-Korean Championship
ZZZero.O295
LiquipediaDiscussion
IPSL
20:00
Ro4 Set 2
DragOn vs Sziky
Airneanach61
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
White-Ra 243
JuggernautJason116
Nathanias 106
Vindicta 27
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 295
Dota 2
420jenkins295
Counter-Strike
fl0m7115
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu541
Other Games
FrodaN6860
Grubby4387
Liquid`RaSZi3084
B2W.Neo936
Beastyqt649
Harstem350
mouzStarbuck340
ArmadaUGS194
KnowMe166
ToD126
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick5717
EGCTV921
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 47
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Noizen42
League of Legends
• Nemesis4188
• Doublelift3871
Other Games
• imaqtpie2285
• Shiphtur312
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
11h 13m
Wardi Open
16h 13m
Monday Night Weeklies
19h 13m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 14h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
OSC
3 days
OSC
4 days
All Star Teams
5 days
INnoVation vs soO
sOs vs Scarlett
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
[ Show More ]
All Star Teams
6 days
MMA vs DongRaeGu
Rogue vs Oliveira
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
OSC
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-10
Big Gabe Cup #3
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Proleague 2026-01-11
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Escore Tournament S1: W4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.