• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:25
CEST 19:25
KST 02:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection1Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview4[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th103Weekly Cups (May 18-25): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League4Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double1Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results2
StarCraft 2
General
The death of cheese, from a professional cheeser. StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th Changing from 12 to 8 is just asking for StarCraft TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 526 Rubber and Glue
Brood War
General
FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event Soma's ASL Finals Review BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ OGN to release AI-upscaled StarLeague from Feb 24 BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [BSL22] WB Final & LB Semis - Saturday 21:00 CEST
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
McBoner: A hockey love story 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2618 users

Extended Series: Alternative Perspective

Blogs > Thetan
Post a Reply
Thetan
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
240 Posts
December 01 2010 21:00 GMT
#1
MLG Lee was on the newest SoTG podcast, and the Extended Series rule was once again a hot topic of debate. I feel that this is a topic people have strong opinions on. My idea was to look at the problem from a different perspective in an effort to help bridge the gap.

One thing to keep in mind about MLG, is that every match from the beginning to end is a bo3. So, we can think about player vs. player history not as # of matches won, but rather bo3 series won. Instead of arguing how many overall set wins a player has against his opponent, instead approach the problem as how many bo3's the player has won against his opponent. And I'll make the claim that an "Extended Series" can be thought of as 2 bo3's with tie-breaking games to determine the winner. I'll try to show that this method of thinking makes the subtleties of the extended series much clearer.

For now, assume regular double elimination without the extended series rule. In the loser's bracket, if two players meet up again, there's a chance that the winner the first time will lose the second time. That puts the players at a 1-1 tie for bo3 matches won. But this isn't completely fair either - it puts an emphasis on the order in which the bo3's were won (player who wins the second bo3 advances). The fairest way to break this tie is by making the players play more games. Extended Series is a good way of achieving this goal. Not only does it achieve this goal, but it does so in a way that handles all possibilities in a similar fashion while limiting the max number of games played(making it easier to explain the rules/manage/schedule the tournament).

Why Extended Series is a good way of achieving this goal in the loser's bracket:
+ Show Spoiler +

*Any player that wins both bo3's (first to 2 wins) will also win the extended series' bo7 (first to 4 wins)* - Extended Series internalizes the results of 2 bo3's. If a player were to win 2 BO3 series, that player would also have won the Extended Series

If a player wins the first BO3 but loses the second bo3, the players are tied 1-1 in bo3 series won. What extended series does, in essence, is let the players play more games in order to break this tie.

Possible outcomes of a 1-1 tie for bo3 matches won

2-0 first bo3
0-2 second bo3
2-2 overall
Playing Extended Series (first to 4 wins) would in essence break the 1-1 bo3 tie by giving: a third bo3 to determine winner

2-1 first bo3
1-2 second bo3
3-3 overall
Playing extended Series would break the 1-1 BO3 tie by giving : 1 game sudden death

2-0/0-2 first bo3
1-2/2-1 second bo3
3-2/2-3 overall
Playing extended Series would break the 1-1 bo3 tie by giving: 1 additional set win needed for leader, 2 for the player that is behind

Properties of Extended Series:
-The player who has the most overall wins always advances.
-All these seem like acceptable scenarios for breaking a 1-1 bo3 tie to determine who advances.
-The extended series rule covers all of these possibilities by itself (one blanket rule)
-Caps the # of games played (max 5 games in the loser's bracket) to make the tournament easier to schedule.


You can think of an Extended Series not as giving an advantage to one player over another, but *only* as a way to fairly break ties if the players split the 2 bo3's that they play. I therefore cannot say the use of Extended Series in the loser's bracket is "unfair".

But in the finals, if two players meet up again, it seems fair (and logical) to treat their matches as a "bo3-bo3" (first player who wins 2 bo3's). In this case, the player who lost the first bo3 earlier on in the tournament has to win 2 bo3's in the finals, whereas the earlier winner only has to win 1 bo3 in the finals.

But notice that the format above is THE SAME as a straight up double elimination tournament. In a double-elimination tournament, the player coming from the loser's has to win 2 bo3's, while the player from the winner's has to win 1 bo3.

Note that the winner of a bo3-bo3 will always have either more total wins or an equal amount of wins in the series than his opponent.
+ Show Spoiler +

0-2 first bo3
2-1 second bo3
2-1 third bo3

This outcome maximizes the # of wins by the loser of the first bo3 and minimizes the wins by the winner.

4-4 overall W-L, tie goes to the player who has won the most bo3's.
Any other combination of wins and loss, and the winning player of the 3 bo3's will have more overall wins than overall losses.


But what MLG does with extended series finals is that they throw double elimination out the window, and the winner of that one bo7 is the winner of the tournament.

The usefulness of the extended series comes when there is a tie that needs to be broken. In the loser's bracket, such a system is needed. But in the finals, such ties never need to be broken in such a way. There is no reason to implement it. Whoever wins the final under normal double elimination rules will not have lost to his opponent more times than he has beaten him *under any circumstance*. Standard Double Elimination Finals are fair no matter how you look at them - there is no need for the implementation of an extended series during the finals.

Conclusion: The extended series seems to be fair when implemented in the loser's bracket, but is completely unnecessary when implemented in the finals.

*
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
December 01 2010 21:25 GMT
#2
--- Nuked ---
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
December 01 2010 21:42 GMT
#3
Why would you remake this?

Every single discussion about extended series has already been made, seriously.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
NrG.NeverExpo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2114 Posts
December 01 2010 21:43 GMT
#4
Yea i was really upset when I heard my teammate had to play an extended series during MLG Dallas, but after really looking at it and seeing the numbers it kinda made sense, although it would be nice to have a fresh start if you meet the same player twice in the tournament. You win a round which means you should move to the next level, but if you encounter a player who beat you before, its not really moving to the next level, its almost starting back at whenever you played them (i know that might not make much sense)

Then again if it were my teammate who had won the first match between them i might be a fan of it, so who knows :D I just think it would be nice for every player to get a fresh start in every round O_O Coming back from a series that was started originally is VERY hard to hard.
TwitteR: @NeverExpo follow me, i'll follow back :)
Hurricane
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3939 Posts
December 01 2010 21:44 GMT
#5
A post I made on another forum on this same topic:
I like the idea behind extended series, but I feel it is unfair in practice. My main problem with it is how it changes the tournament for two people only. If there are four best of three's in the loser bracket quarter-finals then all four matches should be played under the same circumstances. Having one of the series be a best of seven with one of the player having an advantage is unfair to every person in the quarter finals. None of the other six participants have an advantage in their match and the person with the deficit has a harder time than everyone else. Just because two people happened to meet again in the same bracket should not mean that the rules are different for them. Yes it is true that the person who won in the first series should ideally have an advantage in their re-match, but there is no way to do it without creating issues with the fairness to the other people in the round.


Basically, extended series may give one person a better chance to prove himself, but it is unfair to all of the other competitors in the tournament.
RIP CHARLIEMURPHY 11/25/10 NEVER FORGET | Hurricane#1183 @ B.net
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Showmatch
16:00
Shopify Rebellion Sunday #3
Percival vs Lambo
ByuN vs Clem
YoungYakov vs GuMiho
ByuN vs Creator
Harstem515
Liquipedia
IPSL
16:00
Ro16 Group D
Dragon vs Artosis
dxtr13 vs Hawk
Airneanach62
Liquipedia
Maestros of the Game
13:00
Preliminary Stage
ByuN vs ShamelessLIVE!
Cure vs TriGGeR
RotterdaM1356
ComeBackTV 914
TaKeTV463
IndyStarCraft 189
SteadfastSC163
Rex105
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1259
Harstem 515
IndyStarCraft 176
SteadfastSC 170
Rex 105
elazer 93
ProTech81
MindelVK 47
BRAT_OK 41
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 740
Rush 195
ToSsGirL 57
Rock 28
Sacsri 27
EG.Machine 25
GoRush 25
ajuk12(nOOB) 15
IntoTheRainbow 8
Dota 2
qojqva2245
XaKoH 511
League of Legends
KnowMe124
Counter-Strike
fl0m2000
x6flipin420
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu399
Khaldor230
Other Games
Liquid`RaSZi1955
B2W.Neo629
Beastyqt482
Dendi470
420jenkins317
Hui .189
Liquid`VortiX100
Mew2King43
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick823
EGCTV589
Counter-Strike
PGL195
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 4
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2447
• Nemesis2427
Upcoming Events
BSL
1h 35m
OSC
6h 35m
Wardi Open
18h 35m
Monday Night Weeklies
22h 35m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 16h
WardiTV Spring Champion…
1d 17h
Maestros of the Game
1d 22h
The PondCast
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Solar vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
GSL
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: King of Kings
2026 GSL S1
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
Murky Cup 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.