• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:54
CEST 00:54
KST 07:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)9Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho3Code S RO8 Preview: ByuN, Rogue, herO, Cure5[ASL19] Ro4 Preview: Storied Rivals7
Community News
Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results122025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14Code S Season 1 - Classic & GuMiho advance to RO4 (2025)4[BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET7
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results Power Rank: October 2018 herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May Weekly Cups (May 5-11): New 2v2 Champs
Tourneys
DreamHack Dallas 2025 announced (May 23-25) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S Season 1 - RO4 and Grand Finals PIG STY FESTIVAL 6.0! (28 Apr - 4 May) Monday Nights Weeklies
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed
Brood War
General
Where is effort ? StarCastTV Ultimate Battle Pros React To: Emotional Finalist in Best vs Light BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL 19 Tickets for foreigners
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues The Casual Games of the Week Thread [ASL19] Semifinal A [USBL Spring 2025] Groups cast
Strategy
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Creating a full chart of Zerg builds [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games? Grand Theft Auto VI Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Books] Wool by Hugh Howey
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Narcissists In Gaming: Why T…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 12668 users

Extended Series: Alternative Perspective

Blogs > Thetan
Post a Reply
Thetan
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
240 Posts
December 01 2010 21:00 GMT
#1
MLG Lee was on the newest SoTG podcast, and the Extended Series rule was once again a hot topic of debate. I feel that this is a topic people have strong opinions on. My idea was to look at the problem from a different perspective in an effort to help bridge the gap.

One thing to keep in mind about MLG, is that every match from the beginning to end is a bo3. So, we can think about player vs. player history not as # of matches won, but rather bo3 series won. Instead of arguing how many overall set wins a player has against his opponent, instead approach the problem as how many bo3's the player has won against his opponent. And I'll make the claim that an "Extended Series" can be thought of as 2 bo3's with tie-breaking games to determine the winner. I'll try to show that this method of thinking makes the subtleties of the extended series much clearer.

For now, assume regular double elimination without the extended series rule. In the loser's bracket, if two players meet up again, there's a chance that the winner the first time will lose the second time. That puts the players at a 1-1 tie for bo3 matches won. But this isn't completely fair either - it puts an emphasis on the order in which the bo3's were won (player who wins the second bo3 advances). The fairest way to break this tie is by making the players play more games. Extended Series is a good way of achieving this goal. Not only does it achieve this goal, but it does so in a way that handles all possibilities in a similar fashion while limiting the max number of games played(making it easier to explain the rules/manage/schedule the tournament).

Why Extended Series is a good way of achieving this goal in the loser's bracket:
+ Show Spoiler +

*Any player that wins both bo3's (first to 2 wins) will also win the extended series' bo7 (first to 4 wins)* - Extended Series internalizes the results of 2 bo3's. If a player were to win 2 BO3 series, that player would also have won the Extended Series

If a player wins the first BO3 but loses the second bo3, the players are tied 1-1 in bo3 series won. What extended series does, in essence, is let the players play more games in order to break this tie.

Possible outcomes of a 1-1 tie for bo3 matches won

2-0 first bo3
0-2 second bo3
2-2 overall
Playing Extended Series (first to 4 wins) would in essence break the 1-1 bo3 tie by giving: a third bo3 to determine winner

2-1 first bo3
1-2 second bo3
3-3 overall
Playing extended Series would break the 1-1 BO3 tie by giving : 1 game sudden death

2-0/0-2 first bo3
1-2/2-1 second bo3
3-2/2-3 overall
Playing extended Series would break the 1-1 bo3 tie by giving: 1 additional set win needed for leader, 2 for the player that is behind

Properties of Extended Series:
-The player who has the most overall wins always advances.
-All these seem like acceptable scenarios for breaking a 1-1 bo3 tie to determine who advances.
-The extended series rule covers all of these possibilities by itself (one blanket rule)
-Caps the # of games played (max 5 games in the loser's bracket) to make the tournament easier to schedule.


You can think of an Extended Series not as giving an advantage to one player over another, but *only* as a way to fairly break ties if the players split the 2 bo3's that they play. I therefore cannot say the use of Extended Series in the loser's bracket is "unfair".

But in the finals, if two players meet up again, it seems fair (and logical) to treat their matches as a "bo3-bo3" (first player who wins 2 bo3's). In this case, the player who lost the first bo3 earlier on in the tournament has to win 2 bo3's in the finals, whereas the earlier winner only has to win 1 bo3 in the finals.

But notice that the format above is THE SAME as a straight up double elimination tournament. In a double-elimination tournament, the player coming from the loser's has to win 2 bo3's, while the player from the winner's has to win 1 bo3.

Note that the winner of a bo3-bo3 will always have either more total wins or an equal amount of wins in the series than his opponent.
+ Show Spoiler +

0-2 first bo3
2-1 second bo3
2-1 third bo3

This outcome maximizes the # of wins by the loser of the first bo3 and minimizes the wins by the winner.

4-4 overall W-L, tie goes to the player who has won the most bo3's.
Any other combination of wins and loss, and the winning player of the 3 bo3's will have more overall wins than overall losses.


But what MLG does with extended series finals is that they throw double elimination out the window, and the winner of that one bo7 is the winner of the tournament.

The usefulness of the extended series comes when there is a tie that needs to be broken. In the loser's bracket, such a system is needed. But in the finals, such ties never need to be broken in such a way. There is no reason to implement it. Whoever wins the final under normal double elimination rules will not have lost to his opponent more times than he has beaten him *under any circumstance*. Standard Double Elimination Finals are fair no matter how you look at them - there is no need for the implementation of an extended series during the finals.

Conclusion: The extended series seems to be fair when implemented in the loser's bracket, but is completely unnecessary when implemented in the finals.

*
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
December 01 2010 21:25 GMT
#2
--- Nuked ---
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
December 01 2010 21:42 GMT
#3
Why would you remake this?

Every single discussion about extended series has already been made, seriously.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
NrG.NeverExpo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2114 Posts
December 01 2010 21:43 GMT
#4
Yea i was really upset when I heard my teammate had to play an extended series during MLG Dallas, but after really looking at it and seeing the numbers it kinda made sense, although it would be nice to have a fresh start if you meet the same player twice in the tournament. You win a round which means you should move to the next level, but if you encounter a player who beat you before, its not really moving to the next level, its almost starting back at whenever you played them (i know that might not make much sense)

Then again if it were my teammate who had won the first match between them i might be a fan of it, so who knows :D I just think it would be nice for every player to get a fresh start in every round O_O Coming back from a series that was started originally is VERY hard to hard.
TwitteR: @NeverExpo follow me, i'll follow back :)
Hurricane
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3939 Posts
December 01 2010 21:44 GMT
#5
A post I made on another forum on this same topic:
I like the idea behind extended series, but I feel it is unfair in practice. My main problem with it is how it changes the tournament for two people only. If there are four best of three's in the loser bracket quarter-finals then all four matches should be played under the same circumstances. Having one of the series be a best of seven with one of the player having an advantage is unfair to every person in the quarter finals. None of the other six participants have an advantage in their match and the person with the deficit has a harder time than everyone else. Just because two people happened to meet again in the same bracket should not mean that the rules are different for them. Yes it is true that the person who won in the first series should ideally have an advantage in their re-match, but there is no way to do it without creating issues with the fairness to the other people in the round.


Basically, extended series may give one person a better chance to prove himself, but it is unfair to all of the other competitors in the tournament.
RIP CHARLIEMURPHY 11/25/10 NEVER FORGET | Hurricane#1183 @ B.net
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1d 1h
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft338
ProTech97
trigger 0
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 1973
Artosis 533
firebathero 255
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm130
League of Legends
Reynor36
Counter-Strike
fl0m4885
Stewie2K1365
flusha274
kRYSTAL_31
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King145
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby4334
Liquid`Hasu353
Other Games
summit1g13241
FrodaN2244
shahzam521
C9.Mang0178
ZombieGrub134
ArmadaUGS87
SteadfastSC86
Maynarde78
Trikslyr71
Organizations
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv116
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta47
• musti20045 34
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki28
• Eskiya23 23
• HerbMon 12
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler76
League of Legends
• Doublelift5477
Other Games
• imaqtpie1828
• Scarra1114
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
1d 1h
The PondCast
1d 11h
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Road to EWC
3 days
SC Evo League
4 days
Road to EWC
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
BeSt vs Soulkey
Road to EWC
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-16
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Heroes 10 EU
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Rose Open S1
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
DreamHack Dallas 2025
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.