• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 08:24
CET 14:24
KST 22:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)1Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win2RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge2[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14
StarCraft 2
General
When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death
Brood War
General
Data analysis on 70 million replays 2v2 maps which are SC2 style with teams together? [BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D) soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft What happened to TvZ on Retro?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? Current Meta PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Nintendo Switch Thread Clair Obscur - Expedition 33
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1973 users

Meta-Game > Balance

Blogs > terr0r
Post a Reply
terr0r
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States90 Posts
November 29 2010 21:28 GMT
#1
I'm currently sitting around 1700 in Diamond and have racked up many many games since Beta. I will not dare say I am a definitive source of SC information or that I know a ton more than anyone else. I will however take a moment to expand on a thought that's been recurring to me.

Yes, I play Terran, since the days of BW I was always more comfortable with Terran mechanics. As the game has evolved I've noticed more and more that people are not willing to take responsibility for their own choices, instead blaming balance. Most commonly, in my experience, this happens with Zerg enemies.

I will attempt here, to explain my views on TvZ/ZvT meta-gaming and how it is impacting the game right now for players across most levels.

1) Why do so many Zergs have trouble on ladders?

In one sentence I can confidently say that most Zerg are NOT playing to the strength of their race. Since the most recent balance patch Zergs are going more heavily into Roach play, usually using other units to support them.

A lot of my games end simply because Zergs never move beyond that point. There is no tech-switch from it. There is no heavy usage of additional support units (baneling, speedling, infestor). There is nothing but upgrades, expos and continuous Roach+whatever that they have been doing since 5 minutes into the game.

The wins I see usually come from adding in upgrades, adding tank support and adding Medivacs into what was initially a strong but simple MM combo.

2) What should Zergs be doing differently? (Again just my experience)
The main strength of Zerg lies in the ability to completely switch tech-trees very often. A zerg can go from a maxed army of roach/ling to a strong army of muta/bane or a hive unit with speedling support/banes. Really the strength of the race itself lies in the versatility of knowing you can change what you're doing VERY quickly and there is really very little Terran can do to keep pace.

As Zerg meta-game and mechanics evolve I see more heavy usage of Nydus being helpful. Korean Zergs are already getting overlord speed quickly so we could see more Terran-style drops of 2-3 ovies dropping instead of those "doom drops" we tend to see. I don't know why, but Zerg has seemed to flow away from Infestor + Hydralisk, which is the strongest combo you can get pre-hive vs an MMM army.

Another potent combination/switch which gives me a huge headache is going from Boordlord to Ultralisk. Once Zerg shows BLs the Terran is almost forced to focus on getting a bunch of Vikings to deal with this. The BLs do a good amount of damage to the ground army and while the Vikings are cleaning up, Ultras are made to counter Terrans new composition.

3) Hatch first, is it REALLY viable?

Do you even watch GSL/pro games? If you are a Zerg and go hatch before pool, please don't be mad when I 2 rax push it. I will do this almost 100% of the time. Now instead of building your economy you are forced to defend this push, giving me time to expand and get infrastructure going.

It's a win-win for me even if I don't do massive damage because you've been making units instead of drones. The early hatch advantage has just been tossed out the window and by the time you get saturation I will have my expo ready and we are back to square 1 only I have been building units and workers, leaving me a slight lead.

If you are going to go hatch first against a competent Terran you should expect pressure, otherwise you are basically being given a free lead.

4) Zerg is absolutely weaker in the early game but much stronger in late-game.

This is one fact I cannot express enough. Once a Zerg gets mid to late game without taking a huge hit to econ/tech they should almost always be ahead.

Most Terrans cannot tech-switch quick enough to deal with all the possibilities which can come. Most Terrans cannot rebuild their ranks as quickly as Zerg either. This means you can basically toss entire armies away as long as you do good army damage with them. If you have 4+ hatcheries and queens for injecting larvae, you can rebuild your forces much faster than most. Use this advantage and show some aggression.

Maybe I am completely wrong on these points or a single point within. I welcome any input on this post and left it in blog just because I am growing somewhat tired of being told I'm not playing well, I'm just using the EZ race.

**
Do or do not, there is no try. Yoda
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
November 29 2010 23:04 GMT
#2
Sick of hearing about how zergs need to "lol tech switch more". That's the kind of stuff people were saying before 1.1.2 when it was impossible to win ZvT. Zerg's strength has never been it's ability to tech switch, go watch 90% of BW/SC2 Zerg games. You don't see people going muta/ling/bane then all of a sudden... WOAH HERE'S PURE ROACH/HYDRA. You don't see any of that because mid/late game armies from P/T don't have some magic unit comp that counters them. The other reason, you need lots of expensive upgrades for zerg units to effectively fight. You can't just randomly decide to switch to hydra or muta because those units require upgrades upgrades to be worth their cost.

There's a reason most of the zerg games you see consist of a player heavily investing in 2 or maybe 3 units and focusing their evo/spire upgrades on those units specifically. If a zerg has been going mutalingbane and upgrading air attack, ground armor and melee attack, switching to roach with no ranged attack ups/burrow is going to be a dumb idea 90% of the time.

The only time IMO where this is consistently a good idea is the broodlord->ultra switch, because unlike the other situations, broods actually force T to make a unit that isn't useful against the unit you are switching too.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
Johnranger-123
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United Kingdom341 Posts
November 29 2010 23:32 GMT
#3
Yeah tech switches are only good when you force your opponent to make a unit that completely sucks against the unit your gonna tech switch to. say you tried from muta>roach. I suppose you can argue you make the T build more thors, so what? thors are still good. its not like the T's army suddenly becoems worthless.
But I do agree that to many zergs rush for a baneling bust or something and should play WAY more conseventantly where they can get to late and where zerg owns ^^
Enervate
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1769 Posts
November 29 2010 23:42 GMT
#4
Anyone blaming balance at the 1700 point range is outright wrong and does not know what they are talking about. People will always blame balance for their losses. Just ignore them and laugh to yourself at how much they suck.
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 23:53:41
November 29 2010 23:51 GMT
#5
Sort of getting tired of other races telling other races how to play =(

EDIT: Here's some more content addressing parts of your issue (not all).

IMO tech switching isn't a key answer since all the races don't struggle with tech switching as they did in BW, so the flexibility of tech switching isn't a super strong aspect of Zerg. I completely disagree when you say Zerg is strongest late game, and this statement actually just depends on how the situation of the game flows. In terms of pure unit composition - Zerg is actually pretty terrible compared to other races late game.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
Seide
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States831 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 01:04:49
November 30 2010 00:28 GMT
#6
There is no such thing as 100% balance. Learn to flow with how the game flows, and play with what the game gives you.

Speculating on what could be better about your race will not make you a better player. Learning to take what you are given, and maximizing the strength of what you have infront of you is what makes a player great. Thats why we love players who can seemingly make something out of nothing. This is also why me love MacGyver.

Blaming balance serves when you lose serves only 1 purpose: protecting your own ego. It doesn't matter why you lost. Terran rolled over you hatch first with his mass marine? Kill all your workers with his banshees? Dont blame imba, both those situations are perfectly preventable. Look at your game and see how it could of been prevented.

There is never a point in the game where a race is so weak that they simply can't ever win. They might have a harder time at some points or in certain situations, but thats just a result of having 3 races with distinct qualities and units.

No race is straight up better than another, they each have their situational strengths and weaknesses, being good means not only knowing the game and having mood macro, but knowing how to steer a particular game into those situations where your race shines, while avoiding getting trapped in a situation where you are at a disadvantage.

The fact that Zerg is having trouble hatch first vs 2 racks is a result of Terrans doing that. A good terran knows, if zerg goes hatch first, one of the best ways to steer the game into a advantageous place for them is to apply early agression from 2-3 racks. In this case Zerg is forced to build units, preventing them from quickly building that beastly economy that will carry them into the mid/late game.
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Wardi Open
12:00
Qualifier #1
WardiTV696
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko355
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 5712
actioN 4178
Calm 4013
Horang2 3503
Rain 2196
Bisu 1862
Hyuk 1118
Larva 647
BeSt 551
Soma 522
[ Show more ]
Stork 432
firebathero 365
ZerO 312
Snow 294
Mini 278
Light 275
Hyun 217
Killer 130
Pusan 128
hero 113
Rush 112
PianO 102
Barracks 86
Leta 61
ToSsGirL 58
Sharp 52
soO 45
Backho 38
Mind 37
Terrorterran 26
ajuk12(nOOB) 25
Sacsri 24
sorry 24
zelot 21
Yoon 14
Free 11
SilentControl 10
HiyA 9
Aegong 8
Bale 8
Dota 2
singsing2275
Gorgc1785
qojqva1653
XcaliburYe93
420jenkins28
League of Legends
Reynor69
Trikslyr24
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2160
oskar137
Other Games
B2W.Neo1170
crisheroes372
Fuzer 337
Pyrionflax215
hiko116
QueenE105
Mew2King90
MindelVK18
ArmadaUGS14
ZerO(Twitch)12
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 1770
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream250
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 3
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 16
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV372
• lizZardDota236
League of Legends
• Jankos1792
• Nemesis1363
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
11h 36m
Replay Cast
19h 36m
Wardi Open
22h 36m
OSC
23h 36m
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
1d 10h
The PondCast
1d 20h
Replay Cast
2 days
OSC
3 days
LAN Event
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

SOOP Univ League 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.