|
Yes. I, as a ~1k silver player, did some theorycrafting about ZvP matchup (after a long long time of whining about 4 warpgate), and I actually came up with something solid and I haven't lost to protoss early agression after that. There are 2 reasons why I'm not opening this thread in SC2 strategy forum:
1- Probably people are just gonna laugh their asses off and most of them would be some sort of Diamond Terran players who didn't even play the ZvP matchup even once as either one of the sides.
2- I don't have time to make a proper strategy forum thread right now, I got an exam tomorrow (exam on saturday, yay for me).
So, let me talk about the build order and its explanations right here:
14 hatch
13 pool
16 in-main hatch
I'm right now hearing people "Woah woah woah wtf is that why". Let me explain:
You don't need to stop droning at 30-32 just for the sake of getting enough units to prevail early agression from Protoss. You can drone until you saturate both your bases and still can get enough units and you can get more units over time and still be able to get enough speedlings in time to be able to stop any sort of early attack and still be able to tech and expand easily.
In short: More drones=more money=more units+tech+bases.
Even if opponent goes a FE build, you can make 15-20 zerglings, get another expansion and saturate that expansion in only 1 single round of production, take the economical advantage for good. Purpose of Protoss going for a FE is history.
Replays:
First game of me using this build (Shoutouts to my practice partner TheAntZ):
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103820-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau
Other games:
A noob gold player with early zealot agression:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103821-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
A silver player:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103823-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
A gold player with the most intense game I've ever played:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103824-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
This game actually ended up being a huge macro game and I lost it (it was a hotkey error, I didn't hotkey one of my hatcheries and it had all 19 larvae on it when I realized that. 19 more roaches in a big engagement would definitely change the outcome).
__________________________________
Errm, so what was this blog for, yeah. Name reservation. I reserve the name "Lobo build" for this build.
__________________________________
Thanks for reading or scrolling all the way down to here.
EDIT 2:
Bibbit, a diamond zerg player, posted a few higher level replays which contain a pool first variation of the same build. Thank you.
On November 13 2010 06:32 Bibbit wrote:I've been doing that for a few weeks now, I'll see if I cant find some replays of a bit higher level (note: still not high level, just like mid-diamond-ish). Also my build is different but the idea of 2 base - 3 hatch is there. Edit: Just gonna add them here as I find them Jungle Basin - For some reason this clown didn't attack with his agressive build but I think I would have lived anyway. Metalopolis - Against a FE. I just make a lot of drones and win eventually. Xel Naga Caverns - Against some weird 1 base, 5 warpgate, almost exclusively zealots with +1 all-in. This seemed really stupid and I suspect it was either a custom game or one of those times where auto match making throws gold/platinum people at me. Thats it for now, will look more later.
 
|
Calgary26003 Posts
What if they don't 4 gate and don't FE? You should name this the coinflip build. I feel I've improved it with the following build:
14 hatch
16 in-base hatch
15 pool
I call it the "Lolobo Build"
I'll also go ahead and reserve the following:
14 hatch
16 in-base hatch
16 in-base hatch
15 pool
I call it the "Lololobo Build"
|
Austin10833 Posts
If we use your formula of "More drones=more money=more units+tech+bases" then chill's builds are clearly better.
|
On November 13 2010 03:07 Chill wrote:
What if they don't 4 gate and don't FE? You should name this the coinflip build. I feel I've improved it with the following build:
14 hatch
16 in-base hatch
15 pool
I call it the "Lolobo Build"
I'll also go ahead and reserve the following:
14 hatch
16 in-base hatch
16 in-base hatch
15 pool
I call it the "Lololobo Build"
You sir have just reminded me to send my grattitude to my capoeira mestre for giving me a nickname that starts with "Lo", which eventually turns out to be something like that. But, I also want to see Lolobo build and Lololobo Build in action as well.
EDIT: I won games with this build against people who neither early attack nor early expand, but those games are not as notable as this, because the most visible weakness of this build is of course early agression (just like any other hatch-first builds).
On November 13 2010 03:09 BroOd wrote:
If we use your formula of "More drones=more money=more units+tech+bases" then chill's builds are clearly better.
Yes, formula needs improvements.
|
Hyrule19237 Posts
Your first problem was starting off with "My rating is..."
Anyway, this sort of build is definitely not something you came up with. AFAIK it was used quite a bit on the Korean servers a little while back. Too bad it's countered by Phoenixes.
|
On November 13 2010 03:23 tofucake wrote:
Your first problem was starting off with "My rating is..."
Anyway, this sort of build is definitely not something you came up with. AFAIK it was used quite a bit on the Korean servers a little while back. Too bad it's countered by Phoenixes.
My first problem is not my own rating but the ratings of the people I play. The thing is, if you constantly beat diamond players (not 3digit point ones) with a build, the build will be even more valued if you're silver.
Before giving my nickname to this build, I looked for liquipedia and saw nothing like this in the non-stub builds. But yeah, phoenixes are pain in the ass for any zerg player.
|
United States17042 Posts
Take one of the liquipedia stubs, and turn it into a full fledged build ^^
|
Hyrule19237 Posts
But the point is that you sacrifice tech for units. A few Sentries can hold you off indefinitely, meanwhile Pheonix+Void Ray will absolutely destroy you.
|
I also make drones in the ZvP match up. Often, and with great vigour.
|
It's considered bad form to name something you think you've discovered/invented after yourself. Even more so if you're not a well known name who probably didn't invent it anyway.
|
On November 13 2010 03:37 Ryalnos wrote:
It's considered bad form to name something you think you've discovered/invented after yourself. Even more so if you're not a well known name who probably didn't invent it anyway.
This.
Also, the post just reeks of teenage lameness. You're a silver player. Are you hoping people are gonna start playing this build and everyone calls it the Lobo? It's like when children draw pictures of 'cool guns' and call them 'The Lazer Focus Annihilator 3000'
|
How is 30 drones at one base better than 30 drones split over 2 base?
This seems like a worse version of the dimaga ZvP build, or something done on funday monday with no queens.
|
On November 13 2010 03:33 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
Take one of the liquipedia stubs, and turn it into a full fledged build ^^
If there is a build like this in lp, I'd like to know that. There is none as far as I checked.
On November 13 2010 03:34 tofucake wrote:
But the point is that you sacrifice tech for units. A few Sentries can hold you off indefinitely, meanwhile Pheonix+Void Ray will absolutely destroy you.
You may be right. Moreover, you ARE right. I still have to try this build against heavy air protoss players.
|
On November 13 2010 03:40 OreoBoi wrote:
How is 30 drones at one base better than 30 drones split over 2 base?
This seems like a worse version of the dimaga ZvP build, or something done on funday monday with no queens.
1- Who is talking about one base?
2- I'll have to check dimaga build then.
EDIT:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150899
If dimaga didn't change his ZvP style since this thread, dimaga zvp build is far from my zvp build.
|
On November 13 2010 03:43 Metalwing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 03:40 OreoBoi wrote:
How is 30 drones at one base better than 30 drones split over 2 base?
This seems like a worse version of the dimaga ZvP build, or something done on funday monday with no queens. 1- Who is talking about one base? 2- I'll have to check dimaga build then.
Oh my bad, didn't see the first hatch.
But why do this? Can you really support 3 hatcheries? I find that with queens, I will never have enough money in order to have 3 hatches
|
On November 13 2010 03:45 OreoBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 03:43 Metalwing wrote:On November 13 2010 03:40 OreoBoi wrote:
How is 30 drones at one base better than 30 drones split over 2 base?
This seems like a worse version of the dimaga ZvP build, or something done on funday monday with no queens. 1- Who is talking about one base? 2- I'll have to check dimaga build then. Oh my bad, didn't see the first hatch. But why do this? Can you really support 3 hatcheries? I find that with queens, I will never have enough money in order to have 3 hatches
I actually could support. Better yet, I always had excess money and 0 larvae and insufficient drones-units in ZvPs before using this.
EDIT: Oh you asked if I could find money for the extra hatch. Well, I do find the money. And that extra hatchery turned out to be a good investment as far as I know. I'd still like to try this build against more skilled players, but so far, it's this.
|
On November 13 2010 03:47 Metalwing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 03:45 OreoBoi wrote:On November 13 2010 03:43 Metalwing wrote:On November 13 2010 03:40 OreoBoi wrote:
How is 30 drones at one base better than 30 drones split over 2 base?
This seems like a worse version of the dimaga ZvP build, or something done on funday monday with no queens. 1- Who is talking about one base? 2- I'll have to check dimaga build then. Oh my bad, didn't see the first hatch. But why do this? Can you really support 3 hatcheries? I find that with queens, I will never have enough money in order to have 3 hatches I actually could support. Better yet, I always had excess money and 0 larvae and insufficient drones-units in ZvPs before using this. EDIT: Oh you asked if I could find money for the extra hatch. Well, I do find the money. And that extra hatchery turned out to be a good investment as far as I know. I'd still like to try this build against more skilled players, but so far, it's this.
Please do
I would like to see this build against better players. I watched two of the replays and I'm kinda disgusted at their play. At this point I'm unsure if this is a good build or if you're just a better player than they are.
|
Dimaga is out there putting effective builds to use instead of running a build through 3 trials and clamoring to get it named after oneself. Sharing a build that works , and labelling its weaknesses/strengths is something I welcome and has not been done here. 1/5.
|
I don't see the point of making a third hatchery so early in SC2 when the two queens from the 15hatch opening will give you all the larva you can possibly spend at that early of the game. It's not like BW where a 3hatch build will give you a significantly greater economy than 2hatch builds. The presence of queens in SC2 kinda does away with all 3hatch before lair play as the game is right now. Another big issue is that if the opponent did an early tech build you could defend against air threats in BW with hydras since they're on hatchery tech. In SC2 you can only defend against air threats with queens and you can only make them one at a time from each hatchery and they take a long time to build.
|
On November 13 2010 04:01 OreoBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 03:47 Metalwing wrote:On November 13 2010 03:45 OreoBoi wrote:On November 13 2010 03:43 Metalwing wrote:On November 13 2010 03:40 OreoBoi wrote:
How is 30 drones at one base better than 30 drones split over 2 base?
This seems like a worse version of the dimaga ZvP build, or something done on funday monday with no queens. 1- Who is talking about one base? 2- I'll have to check dimaga build then. Oh my bad, didn't see the first hatch. But why do this? Can you really support 3 hatcheries? I find that with queens, I will never have enough money in order to have 3 hatches I actually could support. Better yet, I always had excess money and 0 larvae and insufficient drones-units in ZvPs before using this. EDIT: Oh you asked if I could find money for the extra hatch. Well, I do find the money. And that extra hatchery turned out to be a good investment as far as I know. I'd still like to try this build against more skilled players, but so far, it's this. Please do I would like to see this build against better players. I watched two of the replays and I'm kinda disgusted at their play. At this point I'm unsure if this is a good build or if you're just a better player than they are.
Actually at this point, I'm also conflicted between having created a build that actually works or having created a silverproof build or having created anything new in the first place, I still look through everywhere if there is anybody other than me posted something like that in an international community site.
On November 13 2010 04:07 alexpnd wrote:
Dimaga is out there putting effective builds to use instead of running a build through 3 trials and clamoring to get it named after oneself. Sharing a build that works , and labelling its weaknesses/strengths is something I welcome and has not been done here. 1/5.
This is why it's a blog. If it was completed and it had more tests on it, it would not be a blog. This will go to strat forums once completed. What i understand from the word reservation is something like this.
On November 13 2010 04:11 koreasilver wrote:
I don't see the point of making a third hatchery so early in SC2 when the two queens from the 15hatch opening will give you all the larva you can possibly spend at that early of the game. It's not like BW where a 3hatch build will give you a significantly greater economy than 2hatch builds. The presence of queens in SC2 kinda does away with all 3hatch before lair play as the game is right now. Another big issue is that if the opponent did an early tech build you could defend against air threats in BW with hydras since they're on hatchery tech. In SC2 you can only defend against air threats with queens and you can only make them one at a time from each hatchery and they take a long time to build.
The second issue about air rush is a big one actually. Phoenix builds are the new sexy in PvZ, I saw people doing that on GSL, or korean ladder (a recent day9 daily on artosis vs reniehour for people who don't know). Also Mr.T from TeamLiquid plays very well with phoenixes and I'm sure we'll see people using phoenixes more in PvZ. So, I still need more tests on air rushes aka "Bisu Builds" as Jason Lee calls that.
EDIT: Typo.
|
I kinda thought about it for a bit and you could go 3hatch before lair, but not making a hatchery that early as in your opening build. The best way I could think of is to go 15hatch 14pool like normal, get your two queens out and then build your third hatchery and take your gases right after. It would be much more streamlined this way. But your tech is going to be so late. There might be a way to play it out against certain P and T openings but I haven't really played SC2 much to have an opinion. The lack of an anti-air unit at hatchery tech severely limits this option.
|
you really shouldn't try and name something after yourself especially if it hasn't been performed at high levels
when bisu started doing corsair/dt vs zerg you didn't hear him say: "everyone should call this bisu build"
it came naturally because he was dominating zergs with his specific build
|
|
|
On November 13 2010 05:01 Inori wrote:Sorry, but you can make proxy Nexus work in Silver. Test it out against better players before trying to get your name PRed.
You talk as if the combined apm of a silver division is 120. I think I can beat a proxy nexus with lololobo build that chill just found out. At least I practiced lololobo build of chill more than you proxy nexus'ed silvers.
And, as I said before, if I tested it adequately, this would be a strat forum thread instead of a blog.
|
Going for so many Hatches early helps if combat stays on ground. Was going for 1 inBase Hatch before expanding too when I was in Silver/Gold/Platin. Btw, I was using the exact same build order  Great help in macro. I sometimes placed a third inbase Hatch at 18-20
Unscouted, fast air units will kill you instantly - the only reason I don't go for that in Diamond. Especially Banshees or Void Rays.
|
Developed by a silver player....tested in silver and gold....really? REALLY? I'm sorry but silver and gold (and platinum for that matter) are still REALLY bad an no1 has any idea how to scout or macro. If you're not at a high level at least run this idea by some mid - high diamond people and get them to play games with it and get their feedback because winning with it in gold means absolutely nothing.
Also another problem is that this is basically how to blind counter a 4 warpgate but if I already know the 4 warpgate is coming then I can easily counter it anyway while using a build that's more versatile and better against other Protoss openings.
|
I've been doing that for a few weeks now, I'll see if I cant find some replays of a bit higher level (note: still not high level, just like mid-diamond-ish). Also my build is different but the idea of 2 base - 3 hatch is there.
Edit: Just gonna add them here as I find them
Jungle Basin - For some reason this clown didn't attack with his agressive build but I think I would have lived anyway.
Metalopolis - Against a FE. I just make a lot of drones and win eventually.
Xel Naga Caverns - Against some weird 1 base, 5 warpgate, almost exclusively zealots with +1 all-in. This seemed really stupid and I suspect it was either a custom game or one of those times where auto match making throws gold/platinum people at me.
Thats it for now, will look more later.
|
On November 13 2010 05:09 Metalwing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 05:01 Inori wrote:On November 13 2010 03:04 Metalwing wrote:
Yes. I, as a ~1k silver player Sorry, but you can make proxy Nexus work in Silver. Test it out against better players before trying to get your name PRed. You talk as if the combined apm of a silver division is 120. I think I can beat a proxy nexus with lololobo build that chill just found out. At least I practiced lololobo build of chill more than you proxy nexus'ed silvers. And, as I said before, if I tested it adequately, this would be a strat forum thread instead of a blog.
Unfortunately it is lol. Sorry to sound like a jerk here but I don't think you understand how bad silver league is. I'm a low diamond player, I completely smashed through gold / platinum, and now I'm having a really hard time breaking mid diamond because the skill once you get to diamond increases massively and then you realize how bad you were before. Thing is about 90% of the skill in concentrated at diamond (you have the equivalent of D-, which was a terrible rank, at low diamond and then anywhere from D+ to B- at mid to high diamond). The other 10% would basically be ranked E on an iccup ladder lol
|
comments while watching the last replay:
- always 9 OL, its better economically.
- The reason it seems like you always had enough money to spend larvae was because you were CONSTANTLY getting food capped every time you needed to build an ovie. This stocked up money when you could've been spending, so it seems like you were spending on time, but you werent. Theres no way you can support 2 queen 3 hatch that early.
- You WERENT supporting 3 hatches. There are long stetches of time with over 16 larvae sitting there unspent
- 11:16 there are 29 unspent larvae, 1k minerals, and food capped at 86/86.
I gave up there... I don't think these are valid tests of a build's viability at all.
|
Ouch.. was going to watch the replay but after reading susySquark's comments I don't think I'll watch it anymore.
|
@Bibbit: Thanks for replays, I'll watch them and add in op as well.
@susySquark: Thanks for your comments on my replay, of course I'll do some better tests before this build ends up in the strat forum (if chill and brood haven't already banned me ofc).
|
I don't see how you can possibly play with 3 hatches on 2 bases. Even droning hard I can barely bring in enough minerals for 2 hatch + 2 queen to be worthwhile. I've actually started delaying my second queen so I have money to get my tech started a bit sooner, and my macro isn't particularly good. Either I've missed some way of getting a lot more minerals, or this build is completely dependent on both players having silver-level macro.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
