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Here are some of my random toughts about Starcraft 2 units in general, this has nothing to do with balance but with the effect certain units have on the game which i think destroy more than they add in their current incarnation (or are just boring). Most of the things i note here are "nessesary" for the balance right now, but that does not make them "good" or "fun" design.
Protoss:
Sentries - They can make or break a game for the Protoss and there is next to no way for the opponent to influence this, once you commit to an attack against a Protoss you just pray that he won't get perfect forcefields and with that splitting your army in nicely digestable pieces.
From the Protoss players point of view they are interesting and also frustrating. A tiny missplacement and they are not effective, perfect placements and you win battles you never ever would have won else.
As soon as massive Units enter the field, when they do, they become useless... That, for me at least, is a clear indication that something is wrong with forcefields as a whole. If they would be a balanced mechanic, there would be no need to basically take them out of the game as soon as real Lategame hits.
Phoenix:
Moving shot is awesome, if you actually can kite, if your enemies Mutas are allready in your base hitting where it hurts it imho does not really work that great. Corsairs, in that regard, were much better and simpler. I nearly never see Phoenix used as a real counter to Mutas at least not if the Protoss was not opening Phoenix anyway. This feels strange to me.
Btw: Phoenix are cool, the Antigrav-Beam is probably the most awesome idea that made it into SC2.
Colossi:
I don't like the sheer power this Unit has against Zerg-Ground (and to a lesser extend on Terran ground). A few oft hem basically take Hydras out of the game and they force Corruptors (or direct Mutaplay). It just does not feel right for me not being able to slug it ouf versus a Protoss on the ground as soon as a few of these easy to micro, high range, high Damage units enter the field (at least until you get serious numbers of Ultras). It just feels stupid playing Zerg against them, being forced to get a dedicated Air to Air unit with most likely absolutely no other use in your game just to make your ground army capable to actually deliver a fight... Same goes for Terran, but Vikings open up some other possibilities, you probably wouldn't get them if there are no Colossus on the field but at least they don't become useless as soon as the Colossi are dead...
Oh, and it's design is as uninspired as it gets.
Archon:
Give this guy a role... A serious one... Theoretical strenght is nice but having him just as a way to use depleted Templars is not what this unit should be  . You could even add an extra cost or something, just give these guys a point...
Terran:
Orbital Command:
Mule ok, Scan ok, both in 1 with no other requirements? Stupid.
Planetary Fortress:
It's just frustrating to play against it, especially as Zerg. As soon as an expansion is up with a PF and a few Turrets attacking it becomes a nightmare. You can't harass an expansion with a PF... As soon as the Deathstar is up most players just search other places to attack and let it be if they do not feel WAY ahead.
Thor:
Does not fit Terran and never will fit Terran for me. It's also the only "badass" Unit whiteout a real weakness when not left totally alone in the field. They own against Air, they own against Ground... Well, they are slow and that's it when it comes to their downsides... They look awesome, they are awesome, they are just to much awesome than is good for a single Unit.... And repairing them wit a million SCV's is a joke.
Banshee:
This unit single handely forces Protoss players all over the World to get X Gate --> Robotics and therefore stears the whole matchup, even when not actually built, in a certain direction. TvP whiteout a Protoss going Robo? Either the Protoss is coinfliping hard or just goes for a quick All-In. For a Protoss to know if he needs Observers against Banshees... He needs Observers (or Halucination) to scout... When scouting it with a Halucination you are most probably allready past the point were you could just drop a Robo to get an Observer in time.
I hate what this unit does to this Matchup and i think this Unit, in all matchups, wins way to many games on it's own (be it against Zerg which has a Queen too less or due to Cloak against a Protoss that for once did not want to play Robo).
Who on Blizzards team thought that giving Terran flying Dark Templars was a good Idea? The Wraith was weak against Ground, it also forced Detection, but it did not outright kill you if you didn't have detection a few seconds after it appeared.
Zerg:
Hydras:
Everyone knows what their problem is. In most of their "roles" Roaches are just as good/better. They get countered harder then Roaches, they are slower than Roaches, they can't regen like Roaches... In many cases they are just worse than Roaches. Even against "THE" roach counter (Marauder) they aren't really better than Roaches, because MMM trashes Roaches and Hydras alike.
Oh, they shoot Air... Else there would be like no point at all in this Unit except again certain timings and when you got a big bank and are near maxed to actually make use of their only advantage over Roaches (DPS per food).
I'll take the old Hydralisk over this any day...
Corruptor:
Phoenix = Awesome Antigrav-Fun.
Viking = Transforming! Transforming is allways fun...
Corruptor = Making an enemy unit take more damage... It's not a bad skill, it's just not a fun skill. It's a good unit, it's just B O R I N G beyond any other unit that theoretically can hit the field in SC2 and most other RTS of all time. The devourer at least had neat spores to look for and be happy when you saw it stack up (and watching your Mutalisks or Hydras absolutely wreck stuff thanks to the Spore)... This unit, has nothing...
It can transform into Broodlords... Thats cool... And often the only reason you ever get it in the first place.
Hm.. That's it for the moment 
Oh:
Roaches and Marauders are retarded .
Btw2:
Starcraft 2 is awesome anyway.
 
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You know whats the most annoying shit with Thors and PF? The repairing SCVs.
You cant kill the Thor or PF if you dont snipe the SCVs. It would be ok if you could actually target the SCVs, but with a third dimension its so fucking harder.
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On November 12 2010 01:56 fabiano wrote:
You know whats the most annoying shit with Thors and PF? The repairing SCVs.
You cant kill the Thor or PF if you dont snipe the SCVs. It would be ok if you could actually target the SCVs, but with a third dimension its so fucking harder.
Banelings.
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On November 12 2010 01:40 Velr wrote:
Here are some of my random toughts about Starcraft 2 units in general, this has nothing to do with balance but with the effect certain units have on the game which i think destroy more than they add in their current incarnation (or are just boring). Most of the things i note here are "nessesary" for the balance right now, but that does not make them "good" or "fun" design.
how can your thoughts be necessary for balance but your thoughts have nothing to do with balance
i'm going to guess that you're a zerg player because you didn't really call for any nerfs against them
I think the game could use a couple of tweaks and changes but many of the imbalances you talk about are not a huge problem in the game
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I meant it that way:
Units clearly have something to do with balance, but my dislike does not come from an Imbalance or anything like that.
Protoss right now whiteout Sentries?... Wouldn't be ok/balanced.
Protoss whiteout Colossus?... Wouldn't be ok/balanced.
I dislike certain units just for what they are, not because their imbalanced or anything like that.
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On November 12 2010 02:23 awu25 wrote:
how can your thoughts be necessary for balance but your thoughts have nothing to do with balance
i'm going to guess that you're a zerg player because you didn't really call for any nerfs against them
I think the game could use a couple of tweaks and changes but many of the imbalances you talk about are not a huge problem in the game
He's not talking about his ideas, he's talking about the units as they are. The unit's are pretty balanced, and if you took them out, it could break the race entirely. That does not neccessarily mean that they are fun to use/play against, which is the point of the OP.
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Sentries do not become useless when massive units come out.
Im the midst of battle, only Ultras will be able to break them, as thors/collosus are usually behind a ball of units.
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Coruptor negates Phoenix micro since it has bigger range!
Interesting read, though pretty biased against terran I would say ^^
And not to nitpick, but it is "always" not "alLways".
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You forgot vultures with flamethrowers!
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I don't agree with some of the more specific points (sentries become useless when massive units are out) but as a whole these are all pretty good points (especially that forcefield micro is really only dependant on 1 player).
As for the banshee thing though, it was the exact same thing with DTs in brood war where terran had to get a quick ebay and then turrets covering their whole base just in case a dt was dropped because it was impossible to consistently scout for them (you're not always going to slip an scv past a goon line). Therefore no sympathy for you protoss players :D. At least observers are really essential and scout the opponents base. Turrets just sit there spinning around in 1 spot.
Edit: forgot to mention this
Everyone knows what their problem is. In most of their "roles" Roaches are just as good/better. They get countered harder then Roaches, they are slower than Roaches, they can't regen like Roaches... In many cases they are just worse than Roaches. Even against "THE" roach counter (Marauder) they aren't really better than Roaches, because MMM trashes Roaches and Hydras alike.
Hydras are way better against stalkers and sentries than roaches O-o
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10387 Posts
Archon looks and sounds like a wimp in SC2, sheesh at least make it somewhat as badass as it was in BW :\
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So much better than most of the threads about these sort of things. Nice blog.
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I hate colossi, useless hydras, and cloak banshees too.
I also hate banelings, though. Those things are a stupid idea imo.
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Banshee = Orca from command and conquer with cloak and without the need to refill the rockets
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United States313 Posts
I also think an Archon role would be pretty nice, I can't agree that it should cost more though. If Archons have a role, then you are getting them for a reason, and 250/250 or 100/300 and 4 food is pretty hefty as it is. Sure you can use storm / DT harass first, but if the archon is the fall back plan then thats not a role, its what they already are, instead of a tank or Muta/ling killer like it it used to be. Granted zerg clearly would need something in return for this such as hydra off creep speed or another buff to the Ultra. What if there was a hive tech that gave zerg another 25 food or something? Sorry random crazy idea.
Phoenix you are dead on about, they have a temporally specific role, and while I personally love them PvZ I open with them because I like it not because I think its the smartest decision, too limited of a secure return on the investment. While they can't clear out mutas in your base, you should have them before the mutas get there, in which case its a very cool dynamic of using the phoenix to keep the mutas back say until blink is done or you have a timing attack with the ground forces. The indirectness of this counter is interesting, though if it was buying time for something better than cannons or blink stalkers (which will be limited in number thanks to the phoenix cost) might be appreciated. Really this is just me trying to further balance the matchup by theorizing of impossible separate but equal responses, should stop day dreaming.
Sentry, in particular force field, I feel is a very good tension in early / mid game. As you mentioned it has the power to win or lose a fight, i sortof compare it to a reaver drop to the mineral line, except for the players skill directly effects the outcome. I do think that given time / practice the cost for trying to attack a protoss with forcefield early game will become too great, but perhaps players will find clever ways around it, or more open maps such that an army properly spread out before engaging will flank and feel less critical an effect from the force fields.
PvT is pretty locked based on banshees requiring a robo and protoss requiring AoE to deal with the bio ball. I just don't know how you can balance a matchup where the earliest units of one race are so effective that the other race has to get high tech, but in order for that higher tech to pay off they have to be so effective that late game the first race struggles to respond.
It'll be interesting to see if / how any of this is relevant in 6 months as the game evolves.
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Gotta agree 100% with the points made on Banshee and Thor. Also the banshee is way WAAAAAAAAAAY more dangerous than a DT because 1)It flies 2)SICK RANGE.
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On November 12 2010 05:43 SubtleArt wrote:I don't agree with some of the more specific points (sentries become useless when massive units are out) but as a whole these are all pretty good points (especially that forcefield micro is really only dependant on 1 player). As for the banshee thing though, it was the exact same thing with DTs in brood war where terran had to get a quick ebay and then turrets covering their whole base just in case a dt was dropped because it was impossible to consistently scout for them (you're not always going to slip an scv past a goon line). Therefore no sympathy for you protoss players :D. At least observers are really essential and scout the opponents base. Turrets just sit there spinning around in 1 spot. Edit: forgot to mention this Show nested quote +Everyone knows what their problem is. In most of their "roles" Roaches are just as good/better. They get countered harder then Roaches, they are slower than Roaches, they can't regen like Roaches... In many cases they are just worse than Roaches. Even against "THE" roach counter (Marauder) they aren't really better than Roaches, because MMM trashes Roaches and Hydras alike. Hydras are way better against stalkers and sentries than roaches O-o
Yes, I generalised a little  .
I'm sure if you search you find replays which show good use of Sentries when massive Units enter the Battle. But normally? No, doesn't happen...
Hydras have a window when they are better against Stalkers... Until they become way worse as soon as laser sweeps or storms hit the field . Why then even bother with Hydras if you aren't entirely sure that your enemy is comitting to Stalkers?
Stupid SC/BW comparison: MM was good vs Protoss until Reaver/Storm hit the field, but you also did not go MM because it would fall apart as soon as one of these units came in to play.
The Banshee/Cloak vs Protoss topic... It was not the same thing .
Yes, in SC/BW DT's were a Terrans worst nightmare, no one denies that :D. But even in SC/BW Terran had multiple ways to deal with them (mines, which you wanted anyway. Scan, which you wanted anyway. Turrets, which you probably did not want until later against Arbiters and finally Vessels, which came to late). But DT's did not force a techtree or the speed of your Tech in general on you, they forced 1-2(+ Turrest) cheap mineral only buildings on you and that was it (other Protoss units forced Terran to go Metal, but thats another topic).
In SC2 Protoss has only 1 way to deal with them: Get Observers or never leave your base. Protoss has to have observers (or cannons) in his base at all times or he can't deal with them (but i honestly think Protoss should get cannons more often).
PvT in SC/BW and SC2 works way diffrent, so comparing them is not really a good idea .
I just don't like Protoss being forced to get an Observer just because Banshees exist... I think it hurts the matchup, i think it's bad for the game.
A flying DT... If anyone would have told an SC/BW-Terran that a unit like this would come for Protoss... uhhh... ugly images in my head... :p.
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EPT
