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Isn't developing algorithms an important part of computer science/programming? If so, I don't understand why taking a class that has applications towards algorithms would be a waste of time.
If you're developing an algorithm or code for a company wouldn't it be useful to be able to prove that your algorithm or program is more efficient than the current algorithm or program being implemented?
I also don't think they would bombard you with complicated application problems right off the bat. I find that most courses just give you the basic problems so you get a sense of how it works.
Also, real math classes are actually proof based I believe. But I do agree with you in that I enjoy computational math courses over proof based math courses.
Hopefully there's a higher level course you can take that will make discrete math more useful to you. ^^ It would suck to have taken a course and wasted your money for nothing.
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If we were applying it to algorithms I'd like to do that but we have not touched on it thus far other than that it is an application.
Also when I said "real math" I was not trying to start a debate over what real math actually is, but convey my opinion that I am displeased with how it is going so far.
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I took this class a year ago and it was one of my favorite classes ever. I guess thats what happens when you have a class with Arthur Benjamin =D
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On November 08 2010 10:29 Hizzo wrote:
If we were applying it to algorithms I'd like to do that but we have not touched on it thus far other than that it is an application.
You probably won't touch on it during the Discrete class. Assuming it's like most places, it's a math class taught by the math department, and they tailor it toward their own majors.
You'll touch on the applications of it in Algorithms once you actually get to the Algorithms class, where you'll be expected to have the background from Discrete.
On November 08 2010 10:31 ReketSomething wrote:
I took this class a year ago and it was one of my favorite classes ever. I guess thats what happens when you have a class with Arthur Benjamin =D
Awww Benjamin wasn't teaching it the term I took it at Mudd. /jealous
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Hope you get used to it. Math courses that require a shitton of proofs are not for non-math major people.
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On November 08 2010 09:54 Elegance wrote:
I feel the same way about psychology. I won't be doing any "conditioning" any time soon, I don't give a fuck if a dog salivates to a bell or footsteps, I don't understand why I have to learn all this nonsense to become a nurse..
I reeeaally hope your trolling. If you dont think understanding part of how the brain works is important to a medical field then I dont know what to say... besides psychology is a pretty cool class imo.
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On November 08 2010 10:41 BnK wrote:
Hope you get used to it. Math courses that require a shitton of proofs are not for non-math major people.
I'll try, for my sake.
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Almost every maths course I've done past the 1st year as an undergraduate was basically all rigour and proof. It's certainly not unique to discrete maths. Proofs are what mathematics is about. If you don't like them then I really wouldn't recommend you do any more maths couses.
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On November 08 2010 09:47 Hizzo wrote:
God I hate this class. Anyone else taking it right now?
I cannot stand proofs. That is all we do, and it's so dumb because I know I'm not going to have to prove why that partially ordered sets cannot have more than one greatest element, or why two odd numbers added together are even outside of this class.
Classes like this piss me off. I cannot see any application of this class outside of algorithms and stuff. I don't even consider it a real class, it just feels like there's so much hand-waving going on - I'd kill to be able to go back to vector calc or any REAL math over this.
/rant
almost none of the classes u ever take will you ever actually use the material you learned ever again
the idea is that they are teaching you to read high level material, learn to think in a certain way, analyze certain topics, and be able to understand high level concepts. the skills you get out of higher level math classes will help you grow as a mathematician whether or not you remember the exact derivation of some theorem
calculus is not "true mathematics", as they basically give you an algorithm and you apply it. you can google and teach a monkey to follow a step by step process. you can teach any kid to google a theorem and plug in numbers. that's not real math.
true mathematics doesn't tell you where to go or what to do, its when you step outside the box and use ingenuity to prove things and explore subjects.
do you think all the algorithms you like and enjoy came out of thin air?
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On November 08 2010 10:58 opsayo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 09:47 Hizzo wrote:
God I hate this class. Anyone else taking it right now?
I cannot stand proofs. That is all we do, and it's so dumb because I know I'm not going to have to prove why that partially ordered sets cannot have more than one greatest element, or why two odd numbers added together are even outside of this class.
Classes like this piss me off. I cannot see any application of this class outside of algorithms and stuff. I don't even consider it a real class, it just feels like there's so much hand-waving going on - I'd kill to be able to go back to vector calc or any REAL math over this.
/rant almost none of the classes u ever take will you ever actually use the material you learned ever again the idea is that they are teaching you to read high level material, learn to think in a certain way, analyze certain topics, and be able to understand high level concepts. the skills you get out of higher level math classes will help you grow as a mathematician whether or not you remember the exact derivation of some theorem calculus is not "true mathematics", as they basically give you an algorithm and you apply it. you can google and teach a monkey to follow a step by step process. you can teach any kid to google a theorem and plug in numbers. that's not real math. true mathematics doesn't tell you where to go or what to do, its when you step outside the box and use ingenuity to prove things and explore subjects. do you think all the algorithms you like and enjoy came out of thin air?
Don't get ahead of yourself. I never said anything about anything besides not liking the course, saying that it was a lot of hand-waving, that I don't like proofs, and that for my purposes I cannot foresee needing to use anything learned outside of creating algorithms. Also, taking what I said about "real math" and running with it after clarification is cool.
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United States4126 Posts
I had to take this class last semester for a CS major too, except for some reason my professor was pretty awesome and didn't dwell too much on proofs. I have another friend taking it right now with a different professor and they're ONLY doing proofs like you are :/ Sucks that it's what you're doing because the other topics in discrete are a lot more fun and interesting.
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The experience you had was pretty interesting! I wish it were like that.
Proofs are the only things I do not like, I actually had no problems with predicates or anything like that until Strong Induction (mathematical induction is easy). Now with relations things are looking more grim!
This semester all around is poop, haha. Also taking C, however important I know it to be, and I just do not like it! I very much miss C++ and java...come back to me OOP.
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On November 08 2010 11:09 Hizzo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 10:58 opsayo wrote:On November 08 2010 09:47 Hizzo wrote:
God I hate this class. Anyone else taking it right now?
I cannot stand proofs. That is all we do, and it's so dumb because I know I'm not going to have to prove why that partially ordered sets cannot have more than one greatest element, or why two odd numbers added together are even outside of this class.
Classes like this piss me off. I cannot see any application of this class outside of algorithms and stuff. I don't even consider it a real class, it just feels like there's so much hand-waving going on - I'd kill to be able to go back to vector calc or any REAL math over this.
/rant almost none of the classes u ever take will you ever actually use the material you learned ever again the idea is that they are teaching you to read high level material, learn to think in a certain way, analyze certain topics, and be able to understand high level concepts. the skills you get out of higher level math classes will help you grow as a mathematician whether or not you remember the exact derivation of some theorem calculus is not "true mathematics", as they basically give you an algorithm and you apply it. you can google and teach a monkey to follow a step by step process. you can teach any kid to google a theorem and plug in numbers. that's not real math. true mathematics doesn't tell you where to go or what to do, its when you step outside the box and use ingenuity to prove things and explore subjects. do you think all the algorithms you like and enjoy came out of thin air? Don't get ahead of yourself. I never said anything about anything besides not liking the course, saying that it was a lot of hand-waving, that I don't like proofs, and that for my purposes I cannot foresee needing to use anything learned outside of creating algorithms. Also, taking what I said about "real math" and running with it after clarification is cool.
I don't get it. You say that the class is proof-based and then go on stating that there is a lot of hand-waving? That's a contradiction right there. If the class is proof-based it means it is rigorous and there is no room for hand-waving... Proofs do not allow for hand-waving or they are not proofs...
It seems like you just simply don't like maths. Maths is proof-based. Every single rigorous maths course will be proof-based.
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I have some very conflicting views, so I may sound a little harsh at times, and I am by no means qualified enough to have any real say (4th year Math/CS major at UCB), but here goes.
I'm pretty sure that for 90% of people, they say the same thing for Algebra. It's not needed for their profession, and it seems like a bunch of handwaving. That doesn't stop it from being important. If you ever want to go deeper into CS, then you're going to be dealing with almost all math. Almost everything you learned is built from the mathematics that you abhor.
I think you're opinion of math may come from your previous education. What you learned in high school is based upon a formulated approach designed not for the real world, but for academia itself. To me, learning math is like learning logic. It's about problem solving. The theorems and equations that you learn are the tools that you are given. However, people put too much on these theorems and equations, rather than the process. For example, what use is the quadratic equation in the real world? When will you be doing a calculation and stop to say "Now I can use the quadratic equation," when you have a computer right there, or when you can use much simpler methods to find the answer. How about if I tell you to do 28*32? People start to pull out their pen and paper, when it should take about 5 seconds to say 896 (difference of squares). They learn (a-b)(a+b) = a^2-b^2, but they never learn what it is. They just know "When I get a problem of this form, I can do this and that," without knowing what the true intention behind the problem is.
In your discrete mathematics class, you probably have to approach a bunch of different kinds of problems, each one requiring a different approach. You might be going through propositional logic, combinatorics, induction, etc. The most important part of the class isn't learning exactly all of DeMorgan's laws by heart, or know the formula for Baye's Rule. It's knowing when and where they are applicable, and being able to maneuver through them. Personally, I have a lot of friends that come to me with "math" questions on topics that I have only seen once or twice. However, the vast majority of these "math" problems from non-math courses are straight forward equation manipulation, or simplifying equations, and all it really takes is a strong foundation and wikipedia to answer these questions once you get the hang of it.
EDIT: I hate C. I think it's a great language if you know what you're doing, but something with it just doesn't quite click with me.
EDIT2: Just remembered I have this bookmarked if you're interested: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Go study engineering - that's "real" math according to your definition.
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Lol... Plexa's right... if you're looking for direct applications to real world stuff. Math isn't the best place to search.
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i just think you're confused as to what "real" math is, versus what you enjoy doing
when it comes to programming, in the "real world" i am 100% sure anything you've programmed thus far will have no application to your future job either.
the general consensus seems to be:
you: "i hate this math class, i wish math classes (or at least this one) wasn't like this
us: "get used to it, thats what math is"
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It seems our op is having a rude awakening from his bubbly days of baby calculus, baby differential equations, and baby linear algebra and he is NOT pleased! Honestly, these basic courses are dumbed down heavily to make it possible for everyone to pass without any real effort. They are *not real* math.
User was temp banned for this post.
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This is a great read, thank you for posting it.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On November 08 2010 09:47 Hizzo wrote:
God I hate this class. Anyone else taking it right now?
I cannot stand proofs. That is all we do, and it's so dumb because I know I'm not going to have to prove why that partially ordered sets cannot have more than one greatest element, or why two odd numbers added together are even outside of this class.
Classes like this piss me off. I cannot see any application of this class outside of algorithms and stuff. I don't even consider it a real class, it just feels like there's so much hand-waving going on - I'd kill to be able to go back to vector calc or any REAL math over this.
/rant
Fortunately, your university administration can make up for your lack of vision. Mathematical proofs are like push-ups for the mind. The ability to understand and competently apply algorithms, complexity, data structures and general problem solving depends on the same portions of your brain as mathematical proofs. And those skills separate the boys from the men.
As a public service, please complete the following:
I am __ years old. Compared to Penn State University, I possess superior insight on how CS education should be taught because of the following reasons: .....
I normally don't rail on people like this. But I hope you will realize the arrogance of what you've wrote.
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